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Comment by ethbr1 | Hacker News Reader

The original(?) +972 article was also on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39918245

It was an excellent and detailed piece on the various systems, and their use by Israel in the Gaza conflict.

>> In an unprecedented move, according to two of the sources, the army also decided during the first weeks of the war that, for every junior Hamas operative that Lavender marked, it was permissible to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians; in the past, the military did not authorize any “collateral damage” during assassinations of low-ranking militants.

Needs no comment and basically sums up the war.

View on HN

I believe the laws of war as commonly understood authorise civilian casualties insofar as they are "proportionate". 1:20 is technically a proportion, but...

> the laws of war as commonly understood

There’s a whole lot of wiggle room in that phrase.

1:2000000 is also a proportion.

Btw, the proportionality requirement in the law of armed conflict relates civilian casualties not with military casualties but rather the military advantage gained. The military advantages of killing a single low-level Hamas combatant are rather limited, and thus the room for civilian casualties should be rather limited as well.

Proportionate in war is not about going tit-for-tat.

> The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”.

The way it's worded is to prevent destroying civilian targets for no military gain.

Thats a very... charitable reading.

20:1 is a proportionality I'd find horrifying. 1:20 is unspeakable.

There is no justification in the current situation in Gaza to justify anything close to the numbers quoted.

More of a slaughter than a war at this point.

"at this point" being the last 6 months, I'd assume?

Yes.

There's one quote in that article that continues to make my blood boil:

> "You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people"

This, regarding the bombing houses full of civilians, because an infantryman might have been inside. This, in a statement by somebody who is critical of the AI effort. By being more concerned at the loss of munitions; the true basis of the calculation is revealed. The IDF -- even those members who are actively critical of it -- views its enemies not as humans, but as vermin to be exterminated. This is genocide, pure and simple.

None of what you said is the definition of a genocide.

The names of the systems are “The Gospel” and “Lavender”! How is it that a Jewish army is using Christian references for their AI killing systems? I don’t think that is unintentional.

is "Lavender" a Christian reference?

Lavender's history has biblical roots. It is referred to as Spikenard in the Bible. Mary used it on the infant Jesus and anointed Jesus after the crucifixion when she was preparing him for burial. So it has a "life and death" connotation which makes a lot of sense when you think of the system as a roulette for those chosen to die.

Exactly. There is no way that whomever named these systems didn’t do it intentionally. The question is why? what was the motivation?

It's a form of ideological hand-washing, they don't want to link the killing to their own religion but it's ok to link the other well known religion. Coincidentally hand washing refers to the story in St. Matthew’s gospel, when Pontius Pilate ‘washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person’.

Sources? What Christ was offered in his birth was myrrh (by one of the Magi) and his body was wrapped in myrrh after his death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrrh#In_the_New_Testament). Myrrh and Lavender seem to be very different. Is there some popular association of the two (like yams with sweet potatoes)?

A quick google search for “lavender christianity” shows many many people have associated them together, possibly with some historical or primary source inconsistencies, however it’s very obvious connected. In addition to search engines a conversation with any LLM has them immediately explain the connection.

Now you might be correct there is some mis-associating from a purely academic standpoint and that actually makes it even more interesting the IDF used it as a name, considering the other name is “The Gospel”. Isn’t the message to Christians - “you’re idiots and we kill our enemies using AI systems named to make fun of you”?

I was raised Greek Orthodox and that's not a message I receive at all. I commented as above because for me there is no association between Christianity and lavender. Asking others who were also raised Greek Orthodox, lavender has no special meaning for any of us at all. To clarify, that's not from an academic standpoint, but from the point of view of tradition.

Perhaps it's a Catholic or Protestant thing, but, if so, I don't know where it comes from. I used to love reading the New Testament and I really don't remember any mention of lavender at all. It could be an Old Testament thing though, so, to be fair, more Jewish than Christian. In Greek Orthodox practice the aromatic of choice is frankincense (every church smells of it because the priests burn it in long-chained incense burners that they swing wildly left and right during liturgy), and, separately, myrrh (although that's associated with death and funerals, I guess). Lavender we mainly use to keep moths off clothes, to be honest. I got small muslin-wrapped packets of it in my closet.

I also am not sure why Israelis would want to send a message to Christians about an AI system used to kill mainly Muslims. I mean, in practice, the Israelis enemies are Arabs who tend to be Muslim, so why would they send a message to Christians?

In any case, can you please share some of the information you found in your quick googling? I'm curious to see what people say. I had a quick look online also and couldn't really find anything specific. The wikipedia page on lavender also lists no specific relation with Christianity, as opposed e.g. for myrrh and frankincense.

There is definitely a large groups of Catholics and Protestants who are associating Lavender with Virgin Mary, Jesus’s birth, and others who believe it goes back to the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve.

One hypothesis is a confusing Spikenard, here is what GPT4 says about that:

> Yes, there can be some confusion between spikenard and lavender, partly due to historical naming conventions and translations of ancient texts. The confusion often stems from the use of the term "nard" or "spikenard" in historical texts, including the Bible, and how it has been interpreted or translated over the centuries. > Spikenard (Nardostachys jatamansi) and lavender (Lavandula angustifolia) are indeed different plants, both botanically and in terms of their historical and cultural significance. However, the confusion might arise because both were used in ancient times for their aromatic properties and were considered valuable for perfumes, medicinal purposes, and religious rituals.The term "nard" comes from the Sanskrit word "narada," while "spikenard" refers specifically to Nardostachys jatamansi. The translation and interpretation of ancient texts, like the Bible, have sometimes led to a blending of these plant identities, especially when the specific botanical knowledge of the original texts was not fully understood or when names were translated in ways that did not precisely match the botanical realities.Additionally, the historical trade of these substances, along with others, through ancient markets might have contributed to the blending of their identities. Merchants and consumers across different cultures might not have always distinguished clearly between the two, especially given the value placed on aromatic herbs and oils in ancient times for both practical and symbolic uses.Despite these confusions, modern botanical and historical scholarship distinguishes clearly between spikenard and lavender, recognizing their unique characteristics and the distinct roles they have played in history and tradition.

As far as the message from IDF, my understanding is the true believers of Orthodox Judaism are actually both anti-muslim and anti-christian. The hidden message I take is “you Christians are fools, easily tricked, we have tricked you also, we laugh at you behind your back, and desecrate your beliefs as our weapons of war”.

Do you have a source that corroborates GPT4? It is well-known that it can happily generate unsubstantiated information.

>> As far as the message from IDF, my understanding is the true believers of Orthodox Judaism are actually both anti-muslim and anti-christian. The hidden message I take is “you Christians are fools, easily tricked, we have tricked you also, we laugh at you behind your back, and desecrate your beliefs as our weapons of war”.

Isn't that just a little bit too much to infer from a single word? If they wanted to send a message to Christians, why not choose something obvious like "Cross" or "Golgotha" or "Herod"?

“The Gospel” is pretty damn obvious.

I don’t think it’s too much to infer, for me it’s extremely obvious, especially considering the religious history.

People don’t realize that Orthodox Jews literally spit at Christian worshipers in Israel.

We have to admit what is going on here. The IDF built multiple AI killing machines with US and Western money (Christian money) and then named them intentionally offensively and with direct hostility to Christianity. There is absolutely no possibility that the people who selected the name “The Gospel” and “Lavender” were not doing so in a religious context.

From a religious standpoint Islam and Christianity are incredibly close. Orthodox Jews only view Christians as useful idiots in their agenda not as religious allies, quite the opposite.

Regarding Lavender - copilot with references below. However I think you are likely correct that the accuracy of the connection is potentially flawed, however it’s the beliefs that matter, and a large number of Christians believe there is a direct connection.

Lavender has *profound connections* to divine symbolism within *Christianity*. Here are some references for you to review:

1. *Biblical Meaning of Lavender*: - Lavender's spiritual essence is depicted in various contexts within biblical scripture. - It is considered a powerful tool for *spiritual purification* in Christianity. - The scent of lavender uplifts the spirit, fosters inner peace, and aids in establishing a connection with the Divine¹.

2. *Folklore and Symbolism*: - When a woman washed Jesus' feet, the lotion she applied contained lavender. - Mary, Jesus' mother, hung his swaddling clothes on a lavender bush, transferring his scent to the plant. - As a result, lavender came to represent *cleanliness* and *purity* in Christian symbolism³.

3. *Spiritual Benefits*: - Lavender is associated with calmness, purification, and tranquility. - It is closely linked with the *crown chakra*, which connects to spiritual realms. - Smelling lavender during meditation and yoga can purify and cleanse the air, aiding in spiritual practices⁵.

Feel free to explore these references further to deepen your understanding of the connection between lavender and Christianity!

Source: Conversation with Bing, 4/5/2024 (1) Biblical Meaning of Lavender - Divine Symbolism. https://biblewithus.com/biblical-meaning-of-lavender/. (2) Lavender Folklore: The Tales Behind This Calming Purple Plant. https://www.icysedgwick.com/lavender-folklore/. (3) The Spiritual Benefits and Meaning of Lavender - Original Botanica. https://originalbotanica.com/blog/spiritual-benefits-lavende.... (4) The Spiritual Meaning of Lavender - TheReadingTub. https://thereadingtub.com/lavender-meaning-spiritual/. (5) History’s Love of Lavender: From Mummies to Bathhouses and Beyond!. https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/l....

Christianity: • Jesus ascended into Heaven • Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, & the final prophet • Jesus’ soul & body are in heaven • Jesus will return to destroy Satan and establish peace on earth • Jesus came from a virgin birth • Jesus performed miracles

Islam: • Jesus ascended into Heaven • Jesus is the word of God, and his messenger and a deliverer of the scripture • Jesus’ soul & body are in heaven • Jesus will return with Imam Mahdi to destroy a False Messiah and establish peace on earth • Jesus came from a virgin birth • Jesus performed miracles

Judaism: • Jesus did not ascend • Jesus was the most damaging false Messiah • Jesus is in boiling excrement in Hell. • Jesus will not return • Jesus had a normal birth • His miracles were of the devil

Those don't seem like references that have anything to do with Christian tradition and practice, certainly not as I understand it from my background. For example, meditation is not a Christian concept.

I would kindly suggest that if you want to understand the meaning of Christian symbolism you should rely on the New Testament and possibly the Old Testament also. You don't need internet searches and chatbots for that.

Or, of course, you could chat with a Christian.

Specifically for this:

>> However I think you are likely correct that the accuracy of the connection is potentially flawed, however it’s the beliefs that matter, and a large number of Christians believe there is a direct connection.

That is what needs a source and I can't find one in what you have provided. Who says that "a large number of Christians believe..." etc? In my experience, nobody I know who is Christian believes that.

> That is what needs a source and I can't find one in what you have provided. Who says that "a large number of Christians believe..." etc? In my experience, nobody I know who is Christian believes that.

I’m in the US and every Catholic I’ve asked associates Lavender with faith. Several of the references I gave are directly Christian themed sources.

We know Christianity is very diverse and has numerous interpretations. I think it’s possible in more Orthodox leaning cultures that Lavender is substituted.

Regarding Old and New Testament, I certainly agree those are the primary and authoritative sources and as I referenced earlier the translations are in dispute and likely source of this confusion. Different traditions appear to have differing translations of the underlying plants being mentioned.

Well that's a good point. I guess I'll ask some Catholics and Protestants about it. It's true that there may have been mistranslations of the Gospels over the years. Come to think of it, that would explain a whole lot.

that may be so, but lavender being a Christian reference seems a bit of a stretch to me. it may well be referred to in the bible, but so are thousands of other things. to me it sounds more like they're giving them light and positive names that bely their destruction in a dark and comical manner

"The Gospel" has wider connotations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_gospel

probably from the Greek

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/εὐαγγέλιον

That’s a stretch considering any Jewish person I’ve ever known would immediately associate “The Gospel” with Christianity and what officially their religion considers as a blasphemy and heresy. There is absolutely no possible way that whomever named the system wasn’t consciously linking it and invoking the religious connotation.

Correct. The Jewish people think of the Gospel as "that which the masses blindly accept as true but we know internally to be false" which is apt given what they have intended to use it for.

Which perhaps they even expounded on by using “Lavender” which potentially is something Christians may have mis-associated with Jesus’s birth (see parallel comments on Lavender). The message to Christian’s is clear - “thanks for all the funding, you’re a bunch of fools, and we are killing our enemies in your name”

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