How Would You Turn This Dial to Make the Freezer Colder? | Hacker News Reader

How Would You Turn This Dial to Make the Freezer Colder?

kottke.org

39 pointsticknd74 comments

I have owned many freezers and fridges in my life, an it was always "higher number = colder". Which is usually completely obvious, because the dial includes a 0 position, which shuts it off.

We have two fridges in our kitchen so I went and checked - one uses the "higher number = colder" approach and the other is marked in degrees C...

Both my fridge and freezer controls are labeled in deg C and you select the actual temperature you want. Which seems to me to be the only completely obvious way to do it.

Only works if the dial is calibrated. This very much not the case in the old days of mechanical thermostats. They were reliable and repeatable but not calibrated.

My parents have a new IKEA fridge, and it also has buttons in degrees Celsius. But as I mentioned below, until quite recently, the knob mechanically influenced a bimetallic strip which shut off the power when it became too cold. You cannot expect precise temperature control from this setup, and any calibration would likely be lost after some months of wear & tear. So printing exact temperature measurements on the knob would've given a false sense of precision. I also suspect that at least in some jurisdictions, some governmental body would require exact and lasting calibration if exact temperatures were printed on the knob. At least where I come from, thermometers used for food must be calibrated and approved by a governmental authority.

I've had both and both make sense. If there's no unit on display it's higher number = more cold (more power usage), without knowing how cold exactly. There is also a 0 usually, which can only mean off. Having 7 represent off would make no sense at all.

Big snowflake(s), medium snowflake, small snowflake on the dial. All embossed, of course.

Arrow/tick mark on the panel.

The bonus is this works in all temperature scales and language systems and probably includes most perception disabilities---blind, dyslexic, illiterate, etc. But I could still imagine a handful of people messing this one up.

(Also, if the thing has an off mode... how do you mark and emboss that? A giant X? Well that looks like a snowflake, especially to your fingertip! A zero? A small horizontal line? Or, probably best, just a separate on/off switch...)

> Big snowflake(s), medium snowflake, small snowflake on the dial.

If you live in a snow-prone area you'll know that large snowflakes (which are actually clumps of flakes which happened to meet and merge on the way down) mean higher temperatures while small flakes equate to lower temperatures. So... Put it on the big flake to raise the temperature?

> Also, if the thing has an off mode... how do you mark and emboss that?

Make it a separate control entirely.

I think of the number as representing "cooling power" since that's what the machine's purpose/function is.

I had been unsure about this for a number of years, until one day I decided to check by slowly turning the knob to both extremes and listening for when the compressor kicked on and shut off.

I have only had the freezers in the apartments that I rent, and it is an escalating number. The question is not "how cold" does the dial make it, but the amount of cold we are asking the compressor etc. to make.

For example, if you notice on older cars there is a dial for the air conditioning. On that dial there is a gradually increasing line of thickness (in blue in my mother's 2010 Camry). Increasing makes the car colder, or rather it makes the compressor deliver more cold air into the vehicle.

So .. why is this dial on this freezer like that? Because I think at one time in history we viewed air conditioning as a manufactured force. Increasing the number is to increase the intensity of that mechanical force.

Reminds me of 2 button toilets: an unlabelled big button and a smaller button..

Is the big one the more convenient button to push, therefore for number 1's. Or Is the big one for a big flush, therefore for number 2's?

Press both together to take a screenshot

Good morning laugh here. Thanks.

So glad I'm not the only one. My house has four different two button toilets and I can't for the life of me figure out which does what. My wife says smaller button is for less water, but on one toilet the small button is tiny and integrated into the bigger button which makes me think it can only be there for when you need a power flush and you press the whole thing. I have no idea.

How long have you been living in the house? This seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to figure out through casual experimentation.

That takes the fun out of it! No in reality there doesn’t even seem to be a material difference in the amount of water used by each button. But I think in the spirit of this thread, why isn’t the interface obvious. At my last house it was a two lever flush where the “eco” flush was a green tab. Much more obvious.

This one always comes to mind when I see some fancy toilet designs at various venues. Which one do I press? Normally in UI a bigger button usually means a more used feature. I can't imagine the average person doing number 2 more than number 1. Most toilets around here have the same size button but an icon with a big circle representing a big flush and small circle for small flush. The buttons being the same size makes the icons have more "meaning".

I have just gotten used to that is not always the case and they actually went for small button = small flush. It makes sense physical-wise but UI-wise not so much.

Oh man me too. First i recall dual flush in Australia in the 80s when I was a kid and it was a push down for full, pull up for half - labeled in English - now I have no idea! Now, I always resort to just push both buttons to be sure.

The toilets in our house have two large buttons that are the same size - even after repairing the mechanisms a few times (which is a bit like keyhole surgery as everything is built into the wall) I still have no idea if they do different things.

I've always assumed that pushing the smaller button means a smaller flush, but... with many of the ones I've used, pressing the small button also pushes down the big button, and I frankly have no idea what that indicates.

It’s physically more work to waste more water.

Yes! This is the root of the confusion. Certain dual button flushes have the small button to combine with the larger one to make the complete flush but on others the small button does the small flush.

At what point does the small button cross over from meaning big flush to small flush!? I swear on most toilets where small means small you need steady hands of a surgeon to hit it!

I grew up with those! I always called them small flush or big flush.

The buttons on mine are the same size, one has a picture of 1 water droplet on it and the other has 2 droplets.

This was one of the core points of a UX class in university: Nothing makes sense and intuitive usability is a lie.

Well maybe not that strictly, but pretty much. For example, steering wheels on cars and boats work the opposite way. On a guitar neck, higher notes are closer to the guitar body and closer to the floor, so actually lower, while lower notes are higher up - because of pitch.

And similar here. Is the number a representative of the temperature? Then you turn it down. Or is the number indicative of "more cooling"? Then you turn it up. One of the freezers I owned was one way, the other wasn't. My fridge has icons instead of numbers due to this.

All in all, you need good indicators and/or physical lock-outs for dangerous things like tubes for different kinds of gas.

> For example, steering wheels on cars and boats work the opposite way

That's not true, at least for pretty much any boat made in the modern age (I don't know before then). Wheels usually have a system of cables connecting the wheel to the rudder and they're wired up so that they work the way you'd expect. Turn the wheel clockwise, the boat turns to starboard (right).

Tillers on boats (sticks attached driectly to the rudder) work in the opposite direction, but then I don't know of a single boat that has both a wheel and a (permanently attached, non-emergency) tiller.

Looks obvious to me: turn according the arrow.

The argument "lower number = colder" doesn't make more sense than "higher number = cool faster" (which is actually how it works), so saying it's not intuitive is arbitrary.

But the arrow is on the knob, which means if you turn the knob in the direction of the arrow then the reference point is moving opposite to the arrow.

If the arrow were on the panel next to the knob, then you'd turn the knob in the direction of the arrow. It follows that if the arrow is on the knob, then you instead turn the panel in the direction of the arrow.

I really don't follow, the arrow is static on the knob, wherever you turn the knob the arrow will keep pointing the same direction with the same meaning "turn clockwise for colder".

If the arrow is on the knob then from the perspective of the panel you're moving in the opposite direction.

I'm sure you agree that if the arrow was on the panel then you'd turn the knob in the direction of the arrow.

> "higher number = cool faster" (which is actually how it works),

Nope. Simple thermostats have no effect on the rate of temperature change, as the compressor (or furnace) does not have intermediate settings. They're either on or off.

What thermostats do is keep the compressor/furnace running until the set temperature is reached (modulo hysteresis), which is a very different thing.

In other words, setting the thermostat to 90 degrees F won't make the room get warm any faster. It'll just keep the furnace running until the room is 90 degrees. Probably not what you want.

Because of the location of the sensor it can cool faster as a side effect, just by having the compressor run longer before it cycles.

The engineer's method: there's a way to wipe all markings and still figure it out. If the compressor is off and turns on when you turn the knob clockwise, then clockwise sets it to a colder temperature. Conversely, if the compressor is on and turns off when you turn it counterclockwise, then clockwise still sets it to a colder temperature.

Keep in mind that there should be a lockout period where the compressor does not come on within a few minutes of turning off, so you can't just move it back and forth and listen to the compressor start and stop.

This is why I only buy refrigeration units with precise temperature control. You set the target temperature and let it sort out how to get there.

Your power bill will thank you.

On a lot of refrigerators, the relays controlling the compressor are exposed at the rear of the unit. Cheap after-market controllers exist that you can wire into the system to add that level of control to any unit. I became aware of them after watching a technologyconnections video.

I have yet to install one though, as all of my fridges since then have had thermostatic control built in.

A rounded arrow on turnable knob with text is a clear visual signifier for what will happen when you turn the knob. The ambiguity just makes it bad design.

I've dealt with similar "inputs" and you almost always need to test (or read the instruction manual) to really know the answer. Interestingly, my first instinct was to think that the arrow was representing the numbers aka "lower number is colder" and apparently that's the solution.

For these cases, the only way for a manufacturer to make sure that users (almost) always get it right is to either use orange/blue colors for the numbers (orange numbers means hotter) and/or a small ice/heat icon at each side.

European designs that are icon-heavy are fine until you hit one of these unambiguously ambiguous situations. To whit: on a freezer dial with numbers, is a higher number a higher temperature or is a higher number more freezing ?

(FWIW the Finnish language just adds to the confusion because people talk about a lower [sub-freezing] temperature like it's more.)

But the consensus in comments here seems to be that the higher numbers mean colder.

This trying on HN to solve The Mystery of the Freezer Dial is like the most ridiculous gameshow lifeline ever.

This is just a variant of those social media post with a simple math question made hard by imprecise notation. That being said 3 is obviously the colder setting.

Obviously 5

This. For fun, asked ChatGPT for confirmation to get the "average answer":

"Is 3 or 5 generally the colder setting on the setting dial of a refrigerator ?

- 3 is generally less cold than 5 on a refrigerator's setting dial, with 5 being colder."

It's the "cooling strength" dial, it's not a temperature dial.

Everyone, please stop posting LLM output as comments here. If we wish to see what they would say we can do so ourselves.

It's a reasonable response to the blog post, if the person searched for one second on Google or on ChatGPT, they would know the answer.

Then just say that? No need to post the output, just as there's no need to paste a list of search results.

It's behind a $20 Paywall

The one you chose to use, maybe.

Still no need to post the output when "$thing can give you the answer" is the point you're claiming to be making.

These knobs generally have a 0 that shuts off the fridge or freezer. They indicate 'cooling strength'. If the device is temperature controlled, you will find an explicit degree F or C symbol.

Even without a 0, you can turn the knob in one direction, then the other, and listen when the compressor starts (that's the colder-direction).

If you drive a few different models of cars, you’ll notice the intermittent mode for wipers has a similar issue: there will be some version of large to small indicated on the stick, but that range could either be how fast the wipers should be moving or how long the wait is between each swipe.

I had a Honda that nicely solved this by labelling the bars with “int”, so clearly the large markings were for a larger interval.

Which is exactly the opposite of how it worked. -_-

The arrow shows direction of turning the knob, so turning it that way should make it colder.

There is an arrow that suggests to me that you tun it clockwise to make it colder. That also brings higher numbers to the top. Higher numbers surely mean more coldness.

This nerd dress is clearly white and gold.

You are wrong, it is clearly gold and white.

So much discussion for nothing. Just turn the knob and see which way turns on the compressor.

Tactile * * ** would be ideal in this case (red to blue might be hard for people with colour blindness).

I never understood why those numbers didn’t just represent the temperature..

Part of the world using Celcius, the rest Fahrenheit doesn't help for sure.

Whats the celcius part :D?

> Part of the world using Celcius

I guess "part of the world" is one way of saying the entire world except 2 countries.

or 30 percent if you use economic boundaries

A lot of Canadians will still give you the weather and pool temperature in Fahrenheit.

Because until quite recently, this knob mechanically influenced a bimetallic strip which simply shut off the power when it became too cold. I guess you cannot expect precise temperature control from this setup, so why lie to people? Also, you would need to manufacture different knobs for the US market.

Oh yeah these things. Most fridges have a dial with 1 to 6 on it, no arrow, and I dont know whether it means temperature (degrees c) or power. So is a bigger number less cold or more cold? Have to turn it and listen to see if it gets noisier to know for sure.

This one with the arrow on it is even worse, crikey.

Imagine you own an ice cream shop and you don't know how your dipping cabinet works.

> Imagine you own an ice cream shop and you don't know how your dipping cabinet works.

Imagine you're a 16 year old working in an ice cream shop that you don't own.

Yes.

“Freezingness Level”

TLDR: Designing user interfaces is non-trivial, both in the digital as well as the real™ world.

This is not an example of that.

The obvious solution is to just tell me what the temperature is. Then no arrow needed.

Or just mark on the dial cooler, warmer and a little arrow at the top to tell you what the setting is.

Or even a curved triangle shape that’s blue on the skinny end and red on the thick end to indicate what is hot or cold.

This is none of that. They chose some arbitrary scale. And then gave you an arrow that could indicate what the numbers do or what turning the dial does. That’s pretty special.

Or, as like I assume in this case, the temperature control is not precise instead of numbers use some iconography. Like 0, *, **, ***, ...

edit: utf-8 snowflakes don't rener... using asterisks *

> The obvious solution is to just tell me what the temperature is.

The manufacturer doesn't know what temperature the numbers represent just that they definitely cover the range of interest. The dial is repeatable but not accurate.

You just gave three possible alternatives, how is that not a perfect example for a non-trivial design decision?

Also, the simple fact that they quite clearly got it wrong, is the 2nd indicator that it a non-trivial thing.

I don’t think so because they skipped some obvious ways to show low and high on a dial.

They went out of their way to add complexity for whatever reason.

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