macOS Finder is still bad at network file copies
jeffgeerling.com
jeffgeerling.com
Then it recently dawned on me: The file explorer. It's the one OS app that I use regularly, and it "just works" with a good enough layout and robust file operations.
then Windows 11 decided to remove that feature for absolutely zero reason.
A prevailing theory is that advanced users opt out of telemetry, where as regular users don't. So Microsoft has no idea what advanced users use and the OS gradually becomes less sophisticated.
1: https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/25855505/how-to-mak...
Otherwise the path becomes clickable buttons... which is nice sometimes when you're going back a few directories as you can just click any parent to get a list of it's siblings drop-down style.
My favorite feature is just typing cmd into the title bar which launches it at the current directory.
Yes. Yes it is.
CMD.exe is still their fastest terminal (even though it sucks on anything else).
Dolphin doesn't always measure a remote FS space correctly. You have 10TB free, but it sees 0 and a 10MB file copy throws ERRNOSPC.
GVFS for non-local systems in Nautilus or Thunar is sometimes quirky too, although I haven't had any issues in a while, so either I'm used to working around the quirks or they were resolved.
I would be willing to blame Xrdp, but Thunar works just fine side by side with the same file at the same time.
Also kind of interesting was that Dolphin's status bar shows a different free space amount than Dolphin's properties window.
But not the KDE file save dialog, that thing's as frustrating as macOS's.
It only shows the common options (i.e. the ones where you would use a keyboard shortcut rather than mouse), hiding anything you might actually have wanted.
Even for less skilled users, mixing horizontal/vertical icons got me a confused tech support call from my elderly father.
Put on your headphones... Apple Music launches. Save files to a certain directory, and it's a tacit request to put it in iCloud. Mouse acceleration is default, disabling it is as easy as a terminal command though (or a third-party tweaking tool). Safari will send nag notifications, but only if you don't disable it. Leaving iCloud alone will add a bright red (1) balloon to your Settings app for no reason; probably for the best. Disable Crash Reporter, disable telemetry, disable the program terminator, disable the sleep image, disable OCSP and Gatekeeper... on top of all that, I still disable automatic updates since Apple cannot be trusted to maintain basic functionality between minor updates.
In all my time on MacOS, the only piece of compelling software I found was iTerm2. Which is a shame, since I don't use MacOS for terminal stuff besides SSH anyways.
By default they put your entire desktop folder, documents folder, etc. as children folders of the OneDrive folder now.
It's absolutely infuriating
Now that I daily-drive Linux, I don't log-on to Windows or Mac systems without a deposit for the troubles. I truly feel bad looking out at the modern landscape of mainstream operating systems. It's no wonder most people feel trapped by modern technology.
No worse than Windows spewing thumbs.db files all over the place. Or any of the thousands of different dot files that end up in Linux volumes.
Literally there’s no tooling I know of that will drop random hidden files.
The ext4 filesystem does have a special hidden directory for data partially recovered/corrupted
That works with ZFS shared over the network (samba, etc) too, which can be useful. :)
Should be configurable though.
Cmd+whatever = annoying chord.
Also if I recall correctly, enter to rename has been Mac convention since the beginning, making it not wrong but just different.
Now, my mac has enter marked as 'return'. Let's follow the same logic, assume I have a file selected, what should 'return' on a file do? Return it to where?
one of my favorites: go save a file in some deeply nested directory. use Column view in the save dialog to get you there.
now try to save another file. you're in Column view only there's one one column: the last saved folder.
ZERO WAY to get back out!
WHY WOULD YOU TRUNCATE ALL OF THE PARENTS FOLDERS FOR NO REASON!
Here we made these columns. But arbitrarily we decided can't use them, so here's a flat, non-structured, hodgepodge miniature list of stuff in a drop-down.
I just tried a few e.g. Safari, Word and can't recreate the behaviour.
Every time column view shows the full hierarchy.
Granted that's not that hard with how bad finder really is.
No the Finder UI is far superior. The part where it falls down is just in sheer bugginess and performance. And Apple of the past couple years has shown it does not care about fixing bugginess or performance on any of their platforms.
Bunch of Stockholm syndrome going around.
You can press Command-up; and also add such a button in the toolbar from View > Customize Toolbar.
Command-click the folder name in the title bar.
Or, View > Show Path Bar.
It definitely is intentional, and for good reason[1].
[1]: https://news.slashdot.org/story/21/09/27/2032200/students-do...
Isn't that just the standard nix filesystem view abstraction leaking into the rest of the OS? Your file system could be any number of drives (or no drives at all) mounted at arbitrary points. Showing them like they are any relevant place to start for most users seems silly. Especially given that in a modern nix OS, almost everything in the top level of `/` is useless to users.
Also, macOS shows external drives on the Desktop and the Finder sidebar by default. The basis for your conspiracy theory is just plain false.
Are you talking about Mac or Windows?
Windows has those shortcuts which backtrack only to MyPC, and they’ve done that since forever. Always infuriated me as a Mac user since I am both user and Admin to get stuck in one of these loops, when I needed to get to root.
I always find it very fursting to get back to my user folder too without being stuck inside my documents or my downloads. End up adding a shortcut to the navigation panel for it.
I suspect the latter at least might not be done because then the menu items for the attributes you sort by would remain selected or reset automatically depending on the state of the `Keep Sorted` toggle, which would be weirdly inconsistent. But then again the `Clean up By` menu enables and disabled depending on the state of the `Sort By` menu, which is arguably even more inconsistent and confusing.
That’s a little like complaining that Alt-F4 is unintuitive, isn’t it? It’s historical continuity. On the other hand, they changed Command-N…
> there is only a back button and not a go up directory button
Can’t argue with that one, though.
cmd-down goes down a directory tree if you have a directory selected or opens a file if one is selected
IMO more intuitive than "enter opens file, backspace goes back", but YMMV
And related if you do open a mess of individual info windows, holding option while closing a window will close all windows in an application (note that since the info windows are in the finder, this will close your finder window too)
Still, to me, inspector should be the default.
Try doing that in Finder and let us know if you like the approach or not.
I have to amend my previous comment; reading the thread I do understand the hate now, nearly all of the comments here where people are angry at Finder are just things I’ve never had to do. And I suppose if I had to do them I would just use a shell script.
A big one is “no button to go up in the folder hierarchy”, I always open folders in a list view at a high level directory like ~/Documents so I just… didn’t notice the lack of this button. Huh.
Does this mean Finder is “good”? Well clearly not since so many people are unhappy. But it’s working fine for me. Without any other info I would assume it’s working fine for a majority of macOS users.
Eventually, I just gave up. It simply doesn’t seem to be possible. I find it extremely embarrassing for Apple that the fastest way to download and upload the files from the NAS is via its web interface, considering how much more complexity it involves compared to SMB/Samba that were specifically designed for the purpose.
I use Transmit sometimes when I'm just trying to copy folders and files and don't want to whip out scp, but otherwise, I like Samba and NFS, just... they're terrible in Finder.
Finder’s not all bad!
I feel like if you’re going to use the keyboard, though,
cd ..
is just as fast.
Of course that combo is close to your mousing hand. Not ideal but better than filing around with that drop down and cursing.
And hitting space bar for Quick Look is pretty awesome. Especially if you have the right extensions installed.
My macbook often disconnects randomly from my SMB fileserver. I ran into a bug just yesterday where the laptop client would reject re-authentification to the server after I manually disconnected from the SMB server. The only fix was to restart the macbook.
It’s only when you connect to an SMB share by name (incl. by browsing to the share in the Network view) that things get hinky.
Of course I have anyone connecting to SMB://fileserver to make it convenient and stable across router reboots.
I didn't expect naming it to be an issue.
If your SMB server is running Linux, IIRC (this was ~8 years ago, so this might no longer be true) that it also seemed to work, to run avahi on the Linux host, configured to announce the system the way you would if you were setting up AFP on the host; and to have avahi then announce SMB as a service (mDNS SRV record) for the system.
I'd recommend trying to find an old guide for setting up a Linux AFP server. You don't actually have to set up (or even install) AFP, though; just do all the avahi parts!
Why does this work? I think it's because, unlike for the WINS names underlying SMB, macOS seems to have an optimized and cached name-lookup path within discoveryd for the mDNS SRV records that would underlie AFP shares. And this code-path seems to be perfectly happy with discovering an SMB share via mDNS. (Probably because of some legacy transition Apple went through internally, where AFP shares were deprecated + replaced with SMB shares, while still being published "as if they were" AFP shares, via mDNS.)
A few months ago I also painstakingly went through and added tags and comments to many of these files. Later, when the network drive was remounted, the comments were all wiped out while the tags remained (presumably, because of the different attribute storage mechanisms the different fields use, combined with the changing mount ID). Maybe that's recoverable somehow, but I simply don't have the patience. To me, it's as good as lost. Thanks, macOS!
It's pretty clear whomever is leading MacOS dev efforts has been given the directive to not commit any new resources to the MacOS Finder.
For organizing files, I use File Browser Pro (iOS/Apple Silicon), Leap, DevonTHINK and anything else except the finder and tags which have never really worked very well.
There are bugs in the Finder and Disk Utility that have persisted for multiple OS releases and I simply don't trust GUI file management tools in modern MacOS.
In my view, Apple has decided to kill the Mac as a tool and wants everyone to use their Apple devices as consoles except devs who have to put up with being treated as second class citizens while Apple simultaneously uses the same lot of folks to do QA during "public betas".
As an Apple follower for decades, I'm running away from the platform and have recently replaced iCloud (for all intents and purposes) with Syncthing. I use old Intel Macs as daily drivers because you can't really multitask effectively with Apple Silicon -and- work with files because, well, memory contention is still a problem with iGPUs just like it always has been. The speed-up of the much vaunted Apple Silicon has EVERYTHING to do with the physical proximity of the processor cores to the DRAM except when you have a lot of process running then the kernel panics because memory contention issues with storage since MOST storage has to be on the USB bus and you can get into situations where the Mac can't keep the files system consistent because APFS, snapshots and Time Machine are a fuxxing disaster... sorry folks. /venting.
I think Jeff should try ssfs with disk images on either end to get closer to 125 MB/s.
Funny to say, because I just noticed the other day that as of the latest macOS version, Finder directory copies now have some kind of progress metadata (as an xattr of the top level copied folder?) that allows you to cancel [or presumably fail due to network loss] and then later resume copies.
I'm not sure I've run into this state, but I would guess it would work to toggle your wi-fi off to trip the folder over into the "transfer failed" state (where it's no longer greyed out, and instead displays the little "Retry" emblem on the filename), and then delete it.
Would macOS/iOS network file transfer (e.g. automated sync/backup/restore) be more reliable or better supported, if Apple had a revenue model for network (LAN/VPN, not public cloud) storage? Could Mac Mini with 10GbE networking be a reliable file server with an external Thunderbolt disk array?
Well, they did, once upon a time. I still don't understand why they killed the AirPort and Time Capsule range right as they were trying to expand HomeKit.
They want to sell iCloud subscriptions, because it's the recurring revenue for them.
I'm still somewhat amazed photo/video/audio creatives, who deal with large files all the time, have to deal with apple's bullshit around storage.
Most of creatives I've worked with end up with file storage solutions like messy solutions like "stack of external drives".
As far as I'm concerned, having a stack of redundant external drives is a feature, not a bug.
I can easily plug them to a collaborator's computer when network is slow (which is almost always).
If one fails, no big deal, I can just swap it out with another one bought at a local store.
We're really spoiled, SSDs are tiny and super fast and relatively cheap these days. I remember lugging around 3.5" drives...
I always get a laptop with the minimal amount of storage, the money you'd spend upgrading is better spent on drives. That way if it fails, I can buy a new machine, plug in my existing drives, and I'm ready to resume my workflow in 30 minutes.
No single point of failure.
Same with SD cards, much better to have a bunch of 64 GB than one single expensive 512GB.
(of course, I have a nice beefy storage array at my home studio)
Now if software would catch up...
I’ll use cloud storage for off-premises backup in addition to local backups, but that’s about it.
I think Time Machine supports it, but you'd need one single drive large enough to store the content of all external drives you use.
As long as you back your stuff up correctly at some point. The pile of drives can be part of your 3-2-1 if you want.
Retrieval is also terrible with "my stack of drives" as well. Having to physically search through drives to get to a file is why we left paper to the 20th century.
1. https://support.apple.com/en-us/102010
2. https://support.apple.com/en-us/102050
3. https://wiki.samba.org/index.php/Configure_Samba_to_Work_Bet...
I just tried copying a large video file onto the NAS via smb and get around 700MB/s, which is around what I would expect for the setup (5 * 16TB ironwolf pro in raid5, connected via thunderbolt to an sfp+ adapter). Few other things you could try apart from those articles:
* `defaults write com.apple.desktopservices DSDontWriteNetworkStores -bool TRUE` to not write the DS files to network locations
* Connect via IP address in cmd+K connect window.
* _Turn off_ wifi completely when you connect via ethernet. Otherwise it's very likely the connection will still end up going through the wifi interface.
* Enable jumbo frames on the interface (mtu 9000).
* Check `smbutil statshares -a`. You want SMB 3. If it's a LAN and you don't care about encryption, then `SMB_CURR_ENCRYPT_ALGORITHM` should be `off`.
I know macOS is a lot more keen on putting things traditionally in kernel into the user space to decrease the attack surface.
I do have the Time Machine enhancements in Samba enabled.
I had an app that adds windows tiling that also added this feature and it made osx a breeze to use. Better touch type or something like that.
I went back to windows because I couldn't give up my magsafe and HDMI port. Go figure immediately after I bought a Razer blade apple understood their error and brought back the magsafe and HDMI ports.
Half of the macOS complaints on HN are always PEBKAC from people who won't RTFM.
Windows to me is intuitive by default, I can't find macOS intuitive after 10 years even when being forced to work with it professionally.
I still can't deal with copy paste ctrl/cmd btn being in an awkward position and if I change it in the settings other problems ensue. My muscle memory is all kinds of done.
While Apple does change some things with some regularity, the change from "Zoom Window" to "Full Screen" for the green button (and it's alternate behavior when holding option) has been in place since 10.7, 13 years ago. The ability to double click a window titlebar to get the same effect has been in place since the classic mac OS days. I imagine most people have time within a 13 year period to type "Maximize" into the Help search and read the "Move and arrange app windows" topic, and specifically the "Maximize or minimize app windows" section therein.
Not exactly, full screen was introduced in 10.7 (Lion) but it used a separate button on the right side of the window. 10.10 (Yosemite) moved it to the green button.
Completely unintuitive.
Of course when you're "forced" to work with something, you don't have the motivation to learn to use it properly.
Just like me with Windows. I just can't understand the logic of having a global shortcut to open Linkedin for example :)
Because you are used to it. It would've been the other way around if you grew up with macOS. I have no problem with both of these systems after spending the time to get used to how macOS behaves. Hated it at first too after being "forced" to use it at work because I wanted to use it like Windows.
All the little details annoy me, like the animations, settings, mouse acceleration, etc, etc.
I know some animations can be turned off, some things can be tweaked, but this is also annoying.
I haven't ever seen as cheesy animations as the genie or the annoying jumping icon.
Spotlight search rarely giving me the results I want, then at last moment when I'm going to pick something, changing the results, etc.
And in general the toolbar design I don't like at all, I still can't reliably feel it out when the toolbar should pop up from the bottom when not, and then all the windows are kind of positioned in a messed up way due to that, either having a weird gap below when the toolbar is not visible.
Windows has it flat out constantly visible.
I swear, half the people on HN are OSX sychophants who can't fathom a minor criticism on the UX for OSX. It doesn't, "just work" all the time and guess what? Even IOS has its own UX quirks (swipe back ring a bell)?
We get it, you're a herd follower and like looking cool by buying over priced fashion tech pieces.
We went to genius bar and they basically told her she was using it wrong.
I guess OS stability is not guaranteed these days.
To be fair, there was a period when Safari on my iPad would hang occasionally, and that got resolved by an update.
Google is your friend:
https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/welcome/mac
Clearly you're not up to date on what's happening with Apple, or Macs since "OSX" hasn't been a thing since 2016.
This may come as a surprise to you, but I don't care. I don't have time to read manuals and spend time on the welcome documentation.
If it isn't obvious OOTB how to use somettbing like an OS that is built on the presupposition of ease of us, then your UX is bad and not intuitive. We're not talking specializes software here like a DAW or a IDE. It's a desktop OS ffs.
> complaints .. are ... from people who won't RTFM
> (you) And where is the manual for OSX?
> [link]
> (you) I don't care. I don't have time to read manuals
Are you being serious?
There are at least 3 ways to do everything now (e.g. Classic windowing, fullscreen splits, Spaces, Stage Manager), and they're all a bit crap.
Apple needs to implement a proper window management API that lets you replace Dock.app (which controls a lot of window management suff IIRC) so that we can do it ourselves and not rely on accessibility API hacks or disabling SIP.