The Defenestrations of Prague (1419–1997) | Hacker News Reader

The Defenestrations of Prague (1419–1997)

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96 pointsbenbreen80 comments

Let’s not forget the enfenistration of Bag End, when Gandalf discovered Sam spying on him and Frodo, and then reached out the window and pulled him in.

There is the BFRC, the British Fenestration Rating Council. So if fenestration is to do with installing windows, you'd think defenestration is to do with removing windows, but it isn't.

See I learned about defenestration first, so I just assumed BFRC had to do with throwing people into rooms through the window.

With a catapult maybe?

When I registered on Reddit, I chose a username DefenestrationPraha, because I thought at that time that no one in the Anglosphere would be aware of those obscure pastimes of our ancestors.

Little did I know that defenestrations of Prague are one of the few things Czech that the Internet really cares about.

That's very funny. It's like the time that I was in a pub in Cambridge and the gentleman* next to me said, "Y'know, the US and the UK, they go way back. The US used to be a colony of the UK actually." and I laughed, like, "Yes, and we built our entire national identity off of ending our relationship." He was dumbfounded. He was surprised that I even knew details about it. Which makes me laugh just typing this because of how thoroughly ingrained that information is to many Americans.

*Who, to be fair, had actually been educated at the "other place". (I joke as someone who did not go to college.)

However, not many seem to remember New York being a Dutch colony. It's where we get the names Harlem and Brooklyn from among others.

Yankee also

Not to mention the Roosevelt family.

On that note you can probably guess why its called the Russian river up in Northern California.

It's the most famous piece of European history for US students.

Keep that in mind when working on brand promotion for your startup. Eccentric behavior with a mysterious name gets attention.

Well, as long as we strictly scope "European history" to everything between the fall of Rome and World War I. :)

Before is ancient history. After is current events.

The rest of us are just envious that your ancestors got to do what our ancestors were surely dreaming of. ~

If you visit Pražský Hrad (Prague Castle) the scene of the third defenestration, the window is remarkably small. It's not a giant room, the glazed tile heater is dominant. Only one or two of the paintings seem to capture the spirit of the place.

So what other defenestrations are there? The ones in Prague are the ones I have heard about. I remember some movie scenes also, Axel Foley being defenestrated comes to mind. But was the word invented to describe the Prague events ?

> So what other defenestrations are there? The ones in Prague are the ones I have heard about.

All the "window accidents" in Russia involving people who angered Dobby of Kremlin could be counted in, I believe.

Polish Wikipedia mentions a defenestration case [1] during urban revolt in Wrocław (back then Vratislav as it was under Czech crown rule) that took place between 18-22 July of 1418, so a year before the Prague's

[1] - https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestracja_wroc%C5%82awska

I doubt it: there's a castle less than 10 km from me which had a former owner defenestrated during medieval times (when who was left was more important, in property disputes, than who was right)

I'm stealing that parenthetical...

Kudos to GP for adapting the quote, but they are stepping on the shoulders of the previous generations:

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/10/10/war-not/

Thanks for the pointer!

2 Kings 9:30-33

> And when Jehu was come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she painted her face, and tired her head, and looked out at a window. And as Jehu entered in at the gate, she said, Had Zimri peace, who slew his master? And he lifted up his face to the window, and said, Who is on my side? who? And there looked out to him two or three eunuchs. And he said, Throw her down. So they threw her down: and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trode her under foot.

TIL Gaunt Belter may have been channeling a biblical reference with "Blood's on the wall, beratnas!"

Speaking of defenestration scenes in movies, Die Hard has always been my benchmark.

Basketball fans might remember the time Charles Barkley threw a man through a plate glass window: https://archive.is/yZra5

events with historical significance are far more interesting than these kind of movie/popular references that don't mean much

I’m so very sorry. I’ll be sure and check in with you in the future to make sure my comments meet your lofty standards.

There used to be a defenestration building in San Francisco on Sixth Street. Interesting art installation, but it's long since been dismantled.

> So what other defenestrations are there?

There are three official counts of Bohemian uprising culminating in the defenestration of officials:

1) In 1419 a Hussite crowd killed town council members in the then New Town of Prague. Notably, Hussites were a movement of reformed Christians a hundred years before Protestantism. This first official defenestration triggered the Bohemian Wars a struggle for power between Catholics and Hussites.

2) In 1483 a violent mob ejected the mayor of the Old Town of Prague through a window of the town hall. It established equal rights between the Hussites and Roman Catholics.

3) In 1618 the Catholic counts Martinice and Slavata were thrown out of a window in the K̵a̵r̵l̵š̵t̵e̵j̵n̵ Castle of Prague after they ordered to halt the construction of a Protestant church. Eventually it sparked the Thirty Years‘ War.

Most notably there is also:

4) the suicide declared murder of the foreign minister of Czechoslovakia Jan Masaryk in 1948 by Russian agents is also referred to by the „4th defenestration of Prague“. Although used with an ironic undertone AFAIK.

Regarding 3), you probably meant the Prague Castle, not Karlštejn, right? Karlštejn is far from Prague.

You are right, of course. I mixed it up because the leader of the „defenestrators“ — Count Thurn — resided in Karlštejn before the event. And I had a reference to him in a precursor of the post.

Falling out of windows seems a popular way of death for critics of Putin in modern Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_deaths_of_Russian_b...

Also a friend of a friend was apparently killed that way by Pete Doherty's drug dealers.

Popular among the CIA as well.

During Portuguese revolts to regain independence from Spain in 1640, the secretary of state was defenestrated too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_Vasconcelos

I've read that Abraham Lincoln climbed out of a window to prevent the Illinois legislature from having a quorum at one point.

“Defenestration” is my favorite word in the whole wide world <3

For some reason "defenestration" sounds like disemboweling to me, but every time I mention this to german speakers they also point out that "fenster" means "window"

I think the common root here is the Latin word "fenestra". There is also the French word "fenêtre".

There's something intrinsically funny about that word. I think part of it is that it sounds like of like "masturbation", and part of it is that it's so unusually specific - why do we need a word for throwing someone out a window?

Exactly!

> why do we need a word for throwing someone out a window?

Well, "defenestration" is a sort of inflexion of a common word (in Latin or German, which was a common language in Prague in 1618).

Wikipedia has quite a few examples, so having a specific word might be useful in the end: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration

I think the answer about why it’s so specific is if you just say you threw someone out of a window people might assume it was only one story high and not lethal. Defenestration tells you that it was a high window, and often implies the ejection of the owner or a legitimate occupant. Similar to shock vs electrocution.

Even if (this is a challenge for the average English speaker like myself) you maintain in your conscious mind "fenestra = window", I think it's still so funny, because it sounds like you're removing the window from the person (a la decapitation).

There's something very, very energising to me about a mob of people physically dealing with corrupt rulers. A sort of pure expression of democracy.

In Russia, the corrupt ruler defenestrates you.

It didn't end great for the people in Czechia either.

that's not the point, the point is that spirit of both slavic people is completely different

Moscovia was shaped by the rules established during the terror of Mongol invasion, we see the effects to this day

It's hard to say if the Grand Duchy of Muscovy was shaped more by Mongol politics or by Byzantian ones, to be honest, but they certainly imitated Constantinople (or how they perceived it, anyway) more so than Sarai.

Seems more like anarchy.

At least ochlocracy

Depends on who explains the crowd who is good and who is evil. Mob on its own ain't the smartest bunch in the room

The representative of the government who systematically kills and tortures the population for not having the right believe in Jesus isn't that hard of a target to identify.

Democracy: Rule of the Mob. Pretty sure the above sentiment is why the US is a republic...

France during the Revolution, eh?

Owch, yeah. I suppose it's always a good idea you have a backup regime that's actually competent or you'll get revolutionary France.

Yeah, and you need that backup regime to be able to quench the bloodthirst as quickly as they energized it. Lafayette promoted introducing constitutional monarchism in France, for example.

I think the importance of clemency is the clearest lesson I’ve learnt from history. The American revolution’s tolerance for the tories helped cement the new nation, and in contrast the French revolution’s bloodthirst just led to a century of instability and the death of thousands. The harsh terms on Germany post-WWI all but guaranteed another war, and the coal-and-steel community formed after WWII provided for a peace among its european members that endures to this day (now as the EU). A very oversimplified take, admittedly.

The US revolution was literally just white land owners wanting more control taxes, native lands and slavery. There was never any question of it being a revolution where the lower classes would take over. A more realistic long term option was Roman Senate like Upper class aristocracy, and that is what actually did happen in the South.

> The harsh terms on Germany post-WWI all but guaranteed another war

This is just false revisionist history. The peace deal was actually not that harsh. And it took a while many, many other things for WW2 to happen as it did. In fact German never even paid any of the debt that was supposedly so horrible.

In fact got more money invested into them and lent to them then they ever paid out, and guess what, the never paid that back either because after WW2 that debt was forgiven.

What actually made the war likely is that the US ended the war before Germany was actually defeated and then was not even remotely willing do literally anything to enforce the treaty that is had just signed. In fact Wilson basically made promises to France, and those promises were vital in a treaty being signed in the first place. And then of course Wilson couldn't actually back up those promises.

So the reality is the whole peace deal collapsed in on it self as soon as it was signed.

What actually made some form WW2 near inevitable was the Soviet Union trying create world revolution and particularly revolution in Germany.

> and the coal-and-steel community formed after WWII provided for a peace among its european members that endures to this day

More revisionist history. More like the cold war gave Europe a common enemy and the US was actually in control of the alliance. France had no realistic option not to align with with the US, and neither did the newly built West Germany. Also nukes exist.

> The harsh terms on Germany post-WWI all but guaranteed another war

it exacerbated revanchism in population but wasn't the main cause

It should be noted that enough British loyalists felt sufficiently oppressed to flee north in the aftermath of the American Revolution to found two new colonies (New Brunswick and what would eventually become Ontario). So it would be more accurate to describe it as more tolerant rather than tolerant in absolute terms.

And then leading to a war that reduced the population of what would become Germany by 1/3.

Went to Prague last year and saw the very windows that at least one defenstration used. It was so high up and the window sills and leaves were combined about 5ft wide. So it's not like they just knocked someone through glass. They had to really push them off the ledge. Really sad how some hotheads triggered some of the wars in Europe.

If they really thought the guys were so evil, they should have tried them, not defenestrated them. They knew better.

If it was the 1618 one (that's the one you can see from the courtyard), they wrestled him out the window and then beat his hands with their scabbards as he hung on to the sill for dear life. Fortunately he landed in a pile of horse manure and suffered only minor injuries.

Yikes. That's the one I was thinking of. Yeah and it's not like the guys inside would've seen the pile of manure. It was not "ye joke".

FWIW, the horse manure story was probably invented as a reaction to the Catholic explanation that they were saved by divine providence. The whole event is so steeped in religious propaganda from both sides that I don't think we can conclusively say what happened except that both did in fact survive.

Very true. What gets even weirder (I'm kind of a 30 years war nerd) was how dynastic concerns always ended up confusing the confessional tensions, so that you had German protestant houses fighting for the Emperor to improve their position vs. the Palatinate, and Catholic France allying with Calvinist Sweden to expand both of their influence in northern Germany.

Even the pope rooting for the protestant side despite his nominal allegiance, due to Habsburg encroaching on Italy from both Spain and Austria.

At least according to Schiller, who might have enjoyed pointing out Catholic inconsistencies a little too much.

Wedgewood and Wilson (Wilson's 30 years war book is absolutely amazing, if you haven't read it) agree, though they both spend an entire chapter warning you that Schiller is excellent literature and absolutely irresponsible history.

But then weirdly the Ottoman Sultan was kind of low-key supporting the Habsburgs because his more immediate concern was Bethlen Gabor and if Vienna didn't have to worry about the Ottomans it would have a greater force-in-readiness to deter Bethlen. It's just such a fascinating time with so much of the modern world being laid down by people who were only thinking about immediate concerns.

I'm sure we can all come up with twenty-first century examples of people who knew better revealing preferences for —instead of Themis— Nemesis.

> Really sad how some hotheads triggered some of the wars in Europe.

Their grievances were justified, religious freedoms were being curtailed.

Grievances, yes. Actions, no.

Strong disagree.

I see in your bio that you live in or are from Prague. Since you and I see it differently, I would sincerely like to read more up on this event and the history leading up to the 30 years war. If you have anything that you usually recommend, I would gladly take that recommendation.

For the terrors that were going on? Many other nations did way worse things for way less.

Oh sure. The way I see it, I just don't buy into "other people murdering for lesser reasons makes my murder ok." I think they had systems of due process, knew due process was important, and decided to yeet people anyway. But yes, I realize people are a product of their times, etc. etc. And I don't think this is a controversial position within Czechia, from what I encountered?

Due process? Who do you think the people were?

When somebody in power decides you deserve to die, anything you do against them is justified.

The cathlic government was literally going in and doing ethnic and religious cleansing and basically was willing to systematically kill anybody that would follow the party line.

My understanding of the 1618 defenestration is that war was essentially inevitable by that point.

The Holy Roman Empire had always been fragile—more of a loose alliance of princedoms than a proper kingdom or empire—and yet less than one year into his reign Ferdinand II started rolling back the strong religious protections that a large number of his vassals had begun to take for granted. There was no way that Ferdinand's approach to ruling the quarrelsome and religiously diverse German states wouldn't have led to war, even if these specific hotheads had kept their cool in that specific building on that specific day.

Yes, I think that your take is correct.

They did try them. That was why they threw them out the window.

I’m not sure a more level headed trial of the catholics in Prague would’ve prevented the war for long. That particular power struggle could’ve easily boiled over for any reason.

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