Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open | Hacker News Reader

Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open

techcrunch.com

23 pointsbizmedia72 comments

Why do electric car company try to bite off so much? The saying goes "don't re-invent the wheel", but that should be extended to not re-inventing door handles, speedometers and the basic driving controls that have evolved over the last century. My car has a mechanical latch. No wires. No electricity. The lock has an electric actuator, but the mechanical linkages work just fine without power. Who out there was on the focus group wanting electric-only doors?

Electric only doors unfortunately are not new, given that I struggle to find a decent minivan with doors that can be opened manually

Toyota Sienna? Nissan Serena?

Toyota Sienna has power sliding doors in all 2024 models.

Nissan Serena is not sold in the US

If you want a minivan without power sliding doors, you're going to be out of luck.

If you want a minivan where the doors can still be opened with no power, most of them can.

at least all the modern ones i've seen, you cannot open them all the way using only manual and without power, because it's not good for the motors. or maybe that's one of those common myths.

The manuals I've looked at say something like "don't open it without power, it may damage things. If you have to open it without power, be careful."

At least the Kia mentions non-power doors, so even if not available in the USA they're made somewhere for some market. If you really wanted to, you could probably import the parts and swap.

Ah, I see! I have a Toyota Vellfire and you can just turn the power doors off, when you do that they behave exactly like non-power doors. When I was over in Austin recently I got a ride in a Sienna taxi and the back doors were manual in that, so presumably that model lets you switch them off too.

But they can be opened and closed manually which is what you asked for.

edit: replied before reading further down the thread, have replied more usefully further down.

I assume some of it is because these electric car companies need an edge - if they just made the car the same way Toyota and Honda does then it would appear to the consumer to just be an electrified Civic or Corolla.

I think they're trying to come off as futuristic, luxury, and exotic, and I guess that requires making things different for the sake of differentiation.

Perhaps it's also a bit of arrogance, thinking that they can make a better door handle than the old, stodgy automakers (and then finding out the hard way that sometimes things are the way they are for a reason).

On the other hand, I've noticed on my last few cars that the door handles sometimes feel like they're going to break if I pull too hard, like when the doors are frozen shut during freezing rain conditions. Maybe the traditional handles aren't that great either (though none have actually broken on me yet).

>> just be an electrified Civic

Take my money! That is exactly what I want. I want a basic car that does car stuff. Cut the networking. Cut the touchscreens. I want a car that starts and moves reliably with some basic comforts. I would pay more for a car without touchscreens. I would pay more for an electric car without bluetooth.

Same, I ended up with a Kia Niro EV (previous gen) because it doesn't resemble your typical bleeding edge EV.

It shares a platform with the ICE Niro, and aside from the charging port and obvious lack of exhaust pipe it doesn't look like an EV.

Give me a basic EV that looks like a normal car and I'd be happy.

Then buy a Civic. I have a 2023. It has a touchscreen. Which is entirely devoted to "non core functionality" such as bluetooth calling (which also has steering wheel controls), Android Auto/Apple Carplay, radio etc. The only "core" functionality is that it displays backup camera video when reversing.

All the standard buttons and controls are there. The button to push the trunk, the child lock enable/disable, the mirror adjusts, the (electric) parking brake, you name it. Nothing that was a physical control on my previous cars has been touchscreened. The car even has a completely separate menu system, with a completely separate gauge-cluster LCD, for the "core" stuff. Not touch screen. Steering wheel buttons. That menu system isn't the greatest, but you also don't need it day to day.

They want a Civic EV.

I still want a manual transmission (if not an EV) and manual parking brake. I keep cars for decades. I don't want to deal with "conveniences" that brick the rest of the car when they break.

It's actually just Tesla anticonsumerism that the touchscreen is integral to the car. In legacy cars with A/C knobs separate to the screen, the screen is usually just eyecandy that can be safely removed without impacting everything up to self driving. It's just airliner seatback movie screen for cars has nothing to do with flying or driving.

So if you get a ... I'm not particularly Honda inclined, so I'd say, if you go for anything in the price range of Civic or vicinity, and made sure there's separate physical A/C knobs that aren't connected to the center screen, you should be able to just later install a 2035 Adobe CarPlayAuto 23.4 compliant head unit when the time comes, and keep the car just as you wish(dc I'm not a car manufacturer rep, dyor required).

Wasn't that how Tesla started, making an electrified version of a Lotus Elan?

Just looking inside a modern car door panel should give you some idea why. It's a 3d jigsaw puzzle of door linkages, switches, window lifter, speaker, etc and the metal stamping die to make the inner panel must be insanely complex.

An electric only latch would reduce parts count, simplify assembly, and ease door panel design for a new manufacturer. I'm also strongly in the "keep things mechanical" camp but I see the appeal to engineers making a new model car and wanting to keep things simple.

Thay come with that jigsaw puzzles anyway. Manual release is required.

If my car is on fire I sure as heck don't want to rely on an electrical door release

>>Manual release is required.

Is it?

Happy to be proven wrong since I'm far from an expert on FMVSS, but what I've seen specifies capabilities like ability to lock and amount of force it must endure, not the actual implementation (mechanical/electrical/etc).

Regardless the article only tells us the "emergency override mechanism did not work". Whether that is electrical or mechanical we can only guess (one would hope mechanical).

TIL, [0]:

  FMVSS No. 206 does not directly regulate either interior or exterior door handles. It does, however, impliedly require both interior and exterior door handles or other release mechanisms in its regulation of door locks (see generally, 49 CFR 571.206, S4.1.3 and S4.4.2).

Also UNECE R11[1] soft-require mechanical external door handles.

I think there are also other implied requirements from other sections/directives, such as in crash safety that the doors are required to be locked while crashing, unlocked after a crash, can be opened but not unlatched and flopping. Meanwhile, electrical systems would be required not to pose hazards. I’m guessing those together are ruling out all but flap type manual handles, at least on front side doors.

0: https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/24393rbm

1: p.23 https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/201...

>> An electric only latch would reduce parts count

I disagree. Dozens of parts are needed simply to bring an electric wire into a door. Every penetration needs grommets and strain relief. A flexible weatherproof system needs to get the wire from the door to the rest of the car. Relays. Fuses. It all adds up. I cannot believe that a manually-actuated lever would require any more parts.

There are two kinds of engineers in the mechanical and electrical departments. One says "If we just run wires / automate / motorize it will be easier", and they see the direct path from start to finish that matches the requirements.

Then there are those who say "every wire complicates compliance testing, every automation complicates failure modes, every custom part complicates supply chain", and they are the ones that prefer in-house mechanical parts with conservative materials and tooling.

I think it's an age thing, maybe it's a hipster vs greasy-elbows-shop-floor guy thing, but honestly it can be hard to tell who's right.

I think it's mostly an issue of experience. Younger engineers tend to make things more complicated than they need to be and are unaware of reliability issues. Older engineers better understand tried-and-true systems and are more likely to want to stick with things they know work well.

Obviously I'm speaking generally and individuals vary greatly.

There's another angle: system independence.

When things go wrong, i.e in a crash, you still want to guarantee an undammaged door latching mechanism can still be operated independent of other parts of the car being damaged (likely). To satisfy this for a purely electrically actuated latch you would need a battery and independent controller in every door.

It's hard to beat the reliability of a mechanical latch and a human hand to satisfy that requirement.

You already have power in the door, because a car without power windows is a non-starter these days. And power locks.

So using the electricity already present for the door handles has to be entirely tempting.

Sure but in most cases, there's ALREADY wires going to the window motors and locks. In this situation, removing the mechanical door handle/latch operation does indeed simplify things.

>> Every penetration needs grommets and strain relief.

You mean the grommets and strain relief that are already present for windows/speakers/locks? In most cases it's probably not even additional wires as power and control (either can bus or lin bus) are already established from the door to bcm (body control module).

I think the flat door handles are because EVs biggest enemy to range is wind resistance, and so they flatten the door handles to get an extra .5% range. Do that on 15 different parts of a car and you've got yourself a 300 mile range.

FWIW my Polestar 2 has a 300 mile range and regular door handles.

Sure, but it would have a 301.5 mile range if they flattened those door handles!

You could also reach the 301.5 mile range by going on a diet/skipping breakfast. Win-win.

But a flat handle doesn't need to be electric. Literally every aircraft built in the last fifty years has used a flat/recessed door handles. From the biggest 747 to the smallest Cessna, they all have manual levers that fold flat to reduce drag. All are designed to last essentially forever despite constant use. None of them need electricity to open.

At least in the Model Y(which I'm familiar with), I believe the door handles are electrically actuated because the car also needs to slightly roll down the window before allowing the door to open, which allows them to not have the normal metal frame around the window.

There are quite a few vehicles that do this without an electric door release, for example the Dodge Challenger. I think the whole idea was pioneered by the domestic automakers over a decade ago.

> which allows them to not have the normal metal frame around the window.

Why did this become a feature? My old Mini Cooper had this and I hated it. Passengers would pull on the area they were used to pulling on and often this is where the metal frame is, but in the absence of a frame they pull on the glass and it had a very concerning look to it.

>The saying goes "don't re-invent the wheel"

TSLA: check out my yoke!

That's not re-invention. That is just re-hashing. Every decade some car designer "invents" another not-round steering wheel. Every one has been a flop.

It worked for KITT, so why not a production car?

Where's my Turbo Boost?

Forget the yoke - the new Model 3 still has a wheel but removed the stalks, moving the turn signal to buttons on the steering wheel and everything else to the touchscreen (though there's a second set of gear changes in the ceiling)

I think, in fairness, we have to blame Ferrari for that - they did it first with the Enzo, and brought it to their "base" models with the 458, I think?

It's typical tech hubris to think that all these problems are so simple.

Very few customers would want hand-crank windows and individual manual locks on doors. Central locking and motorized windows are just standard now. Once you have the wiring and mechanisms in place for that, an automatic latch isn't a big step. But there should be a reliable manual override. Being able to get out of the car can be a life-or-death safety issue.

Even with manual latches, people are advised to keep a hammer in the car to break a window if necessary.

Maybe these startup companies should start with boring trade vehicles (which even today often have manual windows and locks) instead of the flashy consumer cars. But that won't attract the VC funding.

That would have a bigger environmental impact as those vehicles tend to get significantly more use.

> Very few customers would want hand-crank windows and individual manual locks on doors.

I would pay extra for a car with those features! If only. Alas, your point stands, because there are (apparently) very few people like me.

I am unclear why regulators haven’t taken aim at this for safety reasons given how regulated every other component of a vehicle is. Same with the digitization of the dashboard, which is a massive distraction while driving.

And at the same time, height of the front hood - why haven’t regulators had anything to say with trucks having hoods well above the height of many pedestrians?

I own one and I like it. The build quality is very good.

There's a number of things promised (like proximity unlock) that haven't been delivered, otherwise the latest 2.0 OTA is acceptably stable.

It has been a rollercoaster of an experience and the initial software my vehicle was delivered with was quite bad.

I wish others would understand there are many that do not want to see them succeed and, while Fisker has made many mistakes, some of these reports are very much sensationalized.

On topic of not being able to exit the vehicle, the details are unclear. When child lock isn't enabled, there's supposed to be an emergency exit procedure (two long pulls on the door latch should release the door, independent of electronics). I was locked out of my vehicle once with a very early software release and that lasted 20min. Upon opening the windows remotely via the app, the manual latch procedure worked to open the door from the inside handle (and set off the car alarm).

A relative of mine works there. I can confirm that they are hyper focused (at least he is) on fixing all the issues customers have reported.

> the latest 2.0 OTA is acceptably stable

This is absolutely the very last thing in the world I want to say/hear about a car. We're literally trusting our lives with these software updates, and this bar doesn't sound nearly high enough.

The infotainment and drivetrain are separate (but integrated) components, thankfully. And this applies to all modern vehicles AFAIK, which is a really good thing, because every modern vehicle I know of has some software issues.

And agreed, the bar needs to be higher.

> Customers have reported getting stuck in or out of their car to Fisker for months

They're dead, Jim.

You'd think after a few hours they would break the window or something.

What is the benefit to buying a car from a company very few people have heard of? I don't know the price point of this vehicle (imagine not cheap), but regardless, personally I would never buy a car from a company without a reputation built up before for sales, reliability, and post-sales service.

Henrik Fisker has been building and designing cars since the 80s. He's a known quantity in the industry, but yeah, on his car company specifically, very much buying a startup mvp, so I presume it's for people who are interested in cars and have disposable income?

Well, the company is about to go under so the cars are now at fire sale prices.

My guess is that Fisker and others thought that the market would be much larger, Tesla wouldn't be able to ramp up their production that quickly, and battery prices would have dropped faster. Fisker gets a little bit of a pass since it's from a CEO who tried to sell EVs back in 2009, and may be living in that same mindset.

I didn't realize they had dropped the price by almost half, most of them are going for well under $40K now.

On the one hand, Fisker had already tried it once and failed, why did they think they could succeed the second time? On the other hand, there are lots of success stories out there that make it seem like the time is ripe (Tesla of course, Rivian, Lucid, Bddy, Li, I'm still optimistic about Canoo...)

Are any of those besides Tesla even close to alive? Last I heard Rivian and Canoo were bleeding money.

Well, I have some Li stock and it's been up this past year, so that's a good indicator. I'm not sure about Rivian, it's stock has been pretty flat the last year. Lucid by a similar measure is definitely bleeding. Hasn't been a good year for Tesla either, but I wonder how much of that is Musk being silly.

Canoo has been interesting, over the last 2 years up to a few months ago it had dropped 98% in stock price. Over the last two months it's grown quite steadily. It has what looks like a great vehicle, a good story for it, strong interest and orders (including fleet interest from Wal Mart and USPS and others). But, it's hanging on by a thread.

How else would you start a car company? At some point in every business's life, few people will have heard of it, but they still need sales in order to grow.

Possible ways to derive utility from a car from a company with little reputation:

1) the car has unique features/design

2) standing out due to having a little known and rarely seen car

3) showing that you can afford to spend that car's worth of money without worrying about the money being wasted

>What is the benefit to buying a car from a company very few people have heard of?

Status? Once everyone old money and new money already has a Tesla how else can you stand out and start a conversation, but by buying more niche but equally expensive EV brands that look cool and nobody ever heard of.

Say what you will of the ossified auto giants, making cars is hard and they have a pretty good track record.

Whenever I read of the build quality of upstarts like Tesla and Rivian, I'm reminded if this.

We need to implement a consumer-facing software standards group similar to the NTSB for software products that are going into the hands of consumers. Lexus/Toyota sudden acceleration issues couldn't be identified because the code was so "black-boxy" that they could neither replicate the specific scenario that trigger the event but fingered it as the most likely culprit.

Having software that is understandable, testable, submitted for code review to also ensure devices are not only bug-free, but also not being used for surreptitious activities etc. There could be numerous functions for such a body. Obviously, that will create a "bottleneck" for innovation/product to market but not if you make the companies who want to release the products, fund it.

This group could also legislate certain classes of smart devices/features need to be able to fallback to manual mode when electronics are inoperable. i.e. door handles on cars, power/input/volume on TVs, Fridges must continue to cool even their smart display/features etc.

I'm probably guilty of overreach.

The fact that the main display flashes between blue and red depending on throttle or coast is ridiculous.

Their cars recently significantly dropped in price, and it seems clear why [1]. Also got a bad review from MKBHD on YouTube, which can’t help[2]

[1] https://slickdeals.net/f/17387397-2023-fisker-ocean-trim-pri... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xWXRk3yaSw

I've read this fairy tale. Get them with Boeing and you'll have doors that open just right.

The modern car is such a joke. So complicated, unnecessarily large to placate the insecure consumer, and heavy. So much shit can go wrong.

It’s too bad — we need more entrants to keep the field competitive, especially for the U.S.

gotta be a comment in the body control source - somewhere deep in a state machine - that is like "this should never happen"

Reply on news.ycombinator.com