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Comment by nerdwaller | Hacker News Reader

Some packaging ecosystems are more risky than others, primarily because they allow running arbitrary code at some point during the install cycle. Node and Python being two notable ones, especially considering how commonly they are used[1]. Others do it more safely where, at a minimum, no code can run until the library is imported and run with application code.

Depending on how and where you deploy, you can mitigate some of that by isolating the installs and not keeping sensitive information there (e.g. in a docker image).

[1] - I don't follow node/npm closely anymore, so this may have changed.

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I'm not convinced of the additional danger in letting packages run code during installation. You install them because you want to use them, so the code they ship will get run anyway. Are there really common environments where the final product only gets run with less permissions than the package manager?

Most any deployment based setup will have a separation between the code that is executed on the developer's machine and the code that is run on a built application?

Yes, it is common for developers to have some unit/build testing setup available so that they can run the code locally, but even that should be done by a system that makes sure anything actually running during the test is declared as part of the project workspace.

More directly, it is common for many package managers to try and do a global install of some things. If not global for the computer, for the current user. Thankfully, this is changing a lot. (At least, I think it is?)

How does that add any danger? You're pulling in code because you want to use it. If the package is malicious and your package manager doesn't have post-install scripts, the malicious code is just going to run 5 seconds later when you import it and start working with it.

In the case of NPM with post-install scripts disabled, you'll simply get pwned when you `npm start` rather than `npm install`.

Honestly, I'm going off memory on python. In the olden days, it was not at all uncommon for devs to want the ability to "sudo pip install foo".

Deployments are irrelevant for this conversation; libraries get to run code there anyway. For code execution during installation to be an attack vector, you'd need an environment where npm install gets run with _more_ permissions than npm start (or the equivalent for other package managers). I can't really think of an environment where that is the case. Usually the build and package manager is more restricted than the application, not the other way around.

Right, my understanding is that this was not too uncommon for some older packages? Especially in early python, it was not too uncommon to accidentally install to the whole system, no?

> Are there really common environments where the final product only gets run with less permissions than the package manager?

Yes, only running the final product in a VM/container is pretty common.

And this is a very sensible precaution where developer environments have SSH keys and other privileged credentials available and exposed in predictable locations, ready for exfiltration over the unfiltered internet connection that developers insist on having available.

Hopefully the VM/container run environment is also in a network-isolated environment too, so it can only be accessed and invoked through the expected routes, and it can't make arbitrary network calls to external hosts that haven't been manually reviewed and approved.

The types of secrets ought to be a bit different and less consequential on a developer's machine. If they're not, that's a pretty big red flag. It's one thing to gain access to clone some repositories (e.g. ~/.ssh) but an entirely different thing to get production aws credentials. Not to mention all the other protections that should be in place that mitigate the fallout (for example: no pushes to main/master/prod branches, requiring status checks and reviews before merges, etc).

The issue isn't when you get what you're wanting. The issue is when either you accidentally get something you didn't want (such as type-o squatting - a not too distant issue on PyPi) or a package was published maliciously (imagine bumping a patch version and it being compromised) - a few fairly recent issues on npm.

I agree that the happy path is ideal and hopefully the common case. Regardless, anything with access to production secrets for my team is run on the most minimal image possible (and none of those secrets are available during dependency installation and compilation).

this is still true of node/npm. It's also true of Cargo (Rust), Nuget (C#), and a handful of others. I'd say it's probably the _norm_ for most ecosystems to allow some form of pre/post-install execution.

For what is worth in nix after the code is downloaded the code is built in a sandbox without network access. So one does have a viable alternative for Rust.

And is true that most package managers for popular language allow arbitrary code execution during the install process. That is how husky adds git hooks to the developers machines.

For example in Ruby I need to patch the Kafka gem, karafka because it downloads, builds and stores librdkafa.so in the gem's directory.

I understand that this as well as the husky example comes from a desire to make developer lifes easier but I'd rather we erred on the side of caution. Making sure that software builds without access to the network and without being able to modify your system (ej. Adding files to $HOME)

Hey, you have to patch nothing. Nix support was merged to karafka two months ago.

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