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Comment by zachmu | Hacker News Reader

I think this is the story people tell themselves, but as far as I can tell it's mostly just a story. Kids are resilient and don't need the material wealth college educated people tend to assume they will to have a good childhood. And as for parents, there's really a lot to be said for raising kids while you're young and energetic, it's just easier.

The problem is that it's nearly impossible to convey to a childless person how meaningful parenthood will be to their life. It's something you have to experience firsthand to understand. That's why social norms and defaults are so important here.

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"The problem is that it's nearly impossible to convey to a childless person how meaningful parenthood will be to their life."

It is also hard to convey, how hard it can be, making the transition from only taking care of yourself, to also being 100% responsible for someone else. Combine that with little sleep and relationships that were not working very good before and it is no wonder so many children end up in foster homes, or with traumatic experiences of neverending fights of their parents.

So no, the conditions don't need to be perfect, they never will be. But you have to have some stable base. And consensus with the partner on how to raise a child. Otherwise parenting won't be meaningful, but hell on earth for everyone involved.

In other words there's no "best" or "perfect" time to have a child. There is only when you feel personally ready. So maybe the conversation can turn from "everyone should have babies when they're in their 20's! It's awesome!" to "why do so many people today feel like they have to wait until they're 30 to have a baby?"

I think that would be a more constructive conversation than the one people in my cohort of people with kids wants to have.

"In other words there's no "best" or "perfect" time to have a child. There is only when you feel personally ready"

Yup. And it takes 2 to feel ready and to be sure, to do it together. At least for some time, even though a divorce is not the end of the world, if done right (very rare), but it can be for the children, if it means war between the parents and using the children as a weapon to hurt the other side. That is way too common.

So yes, having kids can be awesome and meaningful. But it is a very serious commitment, maybe the most serious there is, where my advice would be, don't do it, if you don't feel ready.

(I felt ready, but it was and still is very very tough at times)

I think consensus with the partner on how to raise a child would be a given. I don't understand how people get to late stages of a relationship before starting to talk about having kids.

And yes, parenthood is hard, it's tough, you can focus on that, but you could also focus on how meaningful it is.

I would never push parenthood on anyone, I understand it's a personal choice. Honestly though, I just feel sad about people missing out, so very often due to misconceptions.

"I think consensus with the partner on how to raise a child would be a given."

Looking around, it really isn't with many of the parents I know. There are just so many things one can disagree about. Food choices alone are very hard for some. Sugar or not, how much, and vegan diet or not, .. (We try to be as pragmatic as possible, as healthy as possible, but not dogmatic). Then, is it ok to play with toy weapons, what movies to watch at what age, how much screen time at all, ...

With my partner we were quite clear how to do it in theory before. But in reality there are many things we disagree - and then it is an art, to find a consensus about it, while the kids are watching. Otherwise it is an invitation for them for learning how to manipulate.

So good for you, if it was quite easy for you. For many it isn't for various reasons. So some probably just should have the courage to go with it, before they are too old. For others it might be better to wait.

No, I agree with you, maybe I was wrong in assuming parent meant it in a more generalistic way.

But then again, the points you bring up, I'd argue it's quite difficult to figure all that out before having a kid. Everything I said I meant as having in common some general guidelines and a direction, not every specific detail.

Having a shared, defined direction will also help you in settling all the "smaller" disagreements, but I guess my reaction comes from seeing many couples that don't have that general direction figured out yet, i.e. getting married and suddenly husband finds out wife is not that keen about having kids.

"getting married and suddenly husband finds out wife is not that keen about having kids"

Yes, stuff like this. It seems many people avoid topics that could be uncomfortable, so rather smile and go along and hope for the best ... until reality hits them hard. And then some decide to do stupid scheming how to still have babies. And this is then a really bad foundation.

It's not just a matter of giving your kid a new laptop every year vs. every couple of years, or not being able to pay for college out-of-pocket.

There are plenty of people out there who can't afford to live in anything larger than a one-bedroom apartment, who can't afford to clothe their children, or who can't even afford to feed them. Telling them to have kids because they are "resilient" and parenthood is "meaningful" isn't very helpful - it's far better to wait a few years until they're financially stable. A parent's love can't fully compensate for childhood poverty trauma.

To accept this view is to accept the idea that most of our ancestors had "childhood poverty trauma". I just don't see how it's a useful frame.

And really, it's not the actual poor who are delaying having kids into their mid-30s: it's the college educated who make way, way more money than them!

> To accept this view is to accept the idea that most of our ancestors had "childhood poverty trauma".

I 100% accept this idea. Most of my ancestors lived the miserable, short lives of impoverished alcoholics. They and their children absolutely experienced trauma from their miserable hunger and disease-ridden lives.

If I can’t see myself giving my child a good life I’m more than happy to wait until I’m able to. Bringing a child into the world isn’t an intrinsic moral good.

The college educated also live in very expensive cities. What they make in gains of income gets subtracted by landlords.

You're missing the fact that class mobility has changed wildly over time. Delaying having kids is class mobility play, trying to give your a leg up socioeconomically based on your own heightened socioeconomic status. This was a VERY effective move during the 20th century, because the economy was in the biggest growth spurt in history.

In contrast, you go back 150 years, and class mobility was for the cut-throated, extremely ambitious entrepreneurs. The idea of "get a better paying job working for someone else and fundamentally change my social standing" was laughable. Go back any much further than that, and socioeconomic class was basically immutable.

Where I live ( East Asia ) most early-child bearing parents are have wealthy grand-parent who could afford to fund the whole child raising cost. The less wealthy stay working until later in life.

The even more wealthy one marry and have kids right out of college. Delegate child-caring to grand-parent, and only then start working for their career.

>To accept this view is to accept the idea that most of our ancestors had "childhood poverty trauma". I just don't see how it's a useful frame.

For most of the human population, this has genuinely been the case. Most of South/East Asian and African adults are barely 1-2 generations of separation from living in poverty. Most of them are very familiar with the struggle of giving kids a good life in much worse poverty than that experienced in much of the West, and would very much rather their grandkids not go through the same thing.

> The problem is that it's nearly impossible to convey to a childless person how meaningful parenthood will be to their life

I 100% believe you, but at the same time there are a lot of us out there that don't feel like we're missing anything of that sort from our lives.

On the contrary, if I was to have children, I would have to put a whole lot of faith in my biological wiring for parental love and fulfilment overcoming the stresses, worries, and relationship strains any parent will tell you is the norm.

My own experience is that most people focus on the stresses, worries and overall negative(?) aspects. Maybe I've had it easy and I'm incredibly fortunate, which I often feel like, but after becoming a father I would tell you that all the stresses, worries and overall negative aspects are nothing, NOTHING, compared to the positives.

As I said in other comments, I'd never push anyone on such a personal topic, but I'll never forget how, right after my first was born, I simply wished parenthood on everyone.

IMO the whole idea is basically bullshit when applied to everyone as a blanket statement.

I know I would not be a good parent. I know I would resent the kid. It is bizarre to me too when someone who is married says this. Marriage isn't happening either for me so I 100% would be paying child support to a woman I absolutely resent too.

On the contrary, I think people who have children can not imagine the freedom that you have with never having children after 40. Children cost a fortune in currency and opportunity cost. I don't have to help with home work, pay for someone's college, pretend to have fun at some boring kids baseball game. Most of all though I have to live my dreams myself because there is no kid to live them through instead.

There is simply no way I would have lived the life I have if I had children. The valuation between the two situations isn't even close in my mind. I suspect there is a huge amount of coping and denial on the part of parents because once the kid is on its way, what else are you going to do?

This sentiment that it's nearly impossible to convey the meaning it provides is always irritating to hear. It's an extremely condescending idea to have, when the meaning it gives people is pretty obvious to see in siblings and friends/coworkers who do have children. But that's just more reason to want to wait until you feel ready to take on the job.

I've seen how my sibling changed upon starting a family, I've seen how my PhD advisor proudly talks about every little thing his kids do.

The value it gives them is obvious, but that's just more reason not to irresponsibly pop put a baby when I barely make enough to support myself, when I don't know if I'll stay in the country I'm in, when I've had very little time being mature enough to know if my partner is someone with whom I can expect to provide a good environment for at least 18 years.

And yet it's perfectly true. Sorry you feel condescended to. People who say this are relating their own experience of being parents and how they couldn't anticipate how much it would change them.

It can be true that parents can feel that way, yet it is also true that not all parents feel that way, especially among younger parents, else abusive or neglectful parents would not be a thing.

Having a child may be meaningful to a parent, but it is not at all true that applies to all childless people. Continuing to insist on that anyway is just showing sheer disregard for the well-being of a child born to parents who turn out to not actually be all that concerned about parenthood.

Of course you can raise kids just fine without being wealthy.

But… you can give them an even better quality of life if you have wealth.

Yes I’m aware that spoiled rich brats are a thing.

> how meaningful parenthood will be to their life.

Parenthood is very obviously not meaningful to every parent's life. There are plenty of people that just don't make good parents (and who may never make good parents). Saying "you should have kids because of how meaningful it will be!" is a bad thing to say to a narcissist or someone that's overly self involved. Kids need time, attention, and love. Not everyone can or wants to give that. Yes it's sad, yes it's wrong, but it's also a fact.

I have family members in this boat, the kids greatly suffer as a result.

Social norms and defaults have a tendency to shame people into bad positions. Sure, some may benefit, but others will flounder and take their kids/family down with them.

And yet...

> The recent proliferation of studies examining cross-national variation in the association between parenthood and happiness reveal accumulating evidence of lower levels of happiness among parents than nonparents in most advanced industrialized societies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5222535/

I'm sure it is meaningful, but not everyone is willing or able to take on the stress of raising children. Seemingly less and less are as fertility declines across developed (and even developing) world. And you can say they don't need much, but without rigorous education, their future looks pretty grim to me. Won't you encourage your kids to attend the best college they can?

IMHO opinion you have to take happiness surveys like this with a grain of salt. For one thing, there is no such thing as a happiness ruler, this is all based on survey responses and subjective ideas of what it means to be happy. The effect sizes are small and inconsistent. The same surveys frequently show industrial countries significantly less happy than developing countries, and yet few people would choose to live like a Guatemalan instead of a Canadian.

And despite what they may say to surveys like this, it's pretty difficult to find parents who are willing to admit they wish they hadn't had kids. Most consider their family the most important aspect of their lives.

More importantly, "happiness" is a poor metric to optimize one's life around, and hardly anyone does. Most people search for purpose and meaning, which children supply in spades.

I used to take these with a grain of salt indeed, but this is a meta study that finds effects that seem consistent.

I think that happiness probably includes meaning for a lot of people and furthermore it’s a hard sell telling them that they shouldn’t want to be happy.

I’d also turn around the statement about parents who wish they hadn’t had kids (though I did at one point accidentally date a woman who was married with children who clearly didn’t want any of that) to say that I also suspect that those who avoided having children on purpose also rarely regret that decision; some people are just different ultimately I suppose.

I guess the litmus test is would you make the same argument if the results of the study had been the opposite? If they had said industrial life and being a parent increased happiness would you be just as skeptical?

I doubt you would say woah woah there people are sleeping on Guatemala, does being childfree get the same treatment?

> don't need the material wealth college educated people tend to assume they will to have a good childhood

But you do need material wealth to launch them smoothly (a.k.a. minimize their college debt, so they aren't as financially disincentivized to make you grandchildren). A different metric from happy childhood or not.

>The problem is that it's nearly impossible to convey to a childless person how meaningful parenthood will be to their life.

Why does that even need to be conveyed? Whether you have kids or not is none of my business, and vice versa. If anything, the more I hear some variant of "maek keedz und haev famili" like some broken record the more I find the notion preposterous.

Just leave everyone to their devices. Those who want or are interested in kids will have them and those who don't won't, regardless what anyone feels obliged to tell them.

As for me personally? I consider the notion of romantic love a mental illness. I find the concept of marriage to be fundamental violations of an individual's human rights. I find the proposal of continuing my bloodline, and more broadly the human race, without value. I am happy to be single and without issue until my dying breath and I certainly couldn't care less what others do in their bedroom, so kindly take your high horse and please leave for greener pastures.

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