Connecticut, USA wants to penalize insurers for backing fossil-fuel projects
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This the same fallacy people fall for when they say things like "100 companies responsible for 70% of emissions" [1]. It doesn't make any sense. Those companies aren't emitting CO2 in isolation. They're selling products that billions of people are creating demand for, either directly or indirectly.
It's the customers (i.e. "us") who are responsible for those emissions. And the cost is being passed on to those customers. The insurance system is working just fine.
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10...
So, by making fossil fuel projects uninsurable, we will make fossil fuels more expensive, which will reduce consumption, and since it's ultimately we the consumers who consume those fossil fuels (and their products), it seems "fair" that we have to pay for our indulgence.
Sounds like the policy is going to work exactly as intended?
The companies don't just get a pass. Especially not if those companies aren't working to reduce emissions from their processes. And let's not even get started on situations where a company has basically cornered a market and consumers who need their products don't have a choice.
No, you're confusing cause and effect, or putting the cart before the horse.
Yes, there are companies that sell products that produce a huge amount of pollution, and it would all stop if consumers stopped buying those products.
It would stop faster and more directly if the companies stopped making the horribly pollutant products in the first place. They have a responsibility in this, it's not OK to just hide behind "we just make stuff, it is someone else's fault they're buying it".
For starters, these are not neutral sellers, "oh I guess we'll see this stuff if people want it". They induce demand, they actively work to conceal the negative externalities of the things they sell, they actively fight regulations that negatively impact them but positively impact the rest of the planet.
If we can’t pass a carbon tax due to lack of political will, find other points of leverage and exert force.
It’s remarkable to me how fast people are willing to resort to authoritarianism when they can’t get their way via a democratic process. Jesus, you people scare the fuck out of me.
Democracy is great when everyone is an educated, engaged, rational voter. It is not so great when significant cohorts are uneducated, ignorant, and/or vote their feelings, or worse, gerrymandering, the electoral college, and other political systems giving overweighted control to political minorities who would otherwise not have the power they have. Citizens should be entitled to representation, but not over representation (which is what holds us back currently).
No. What’s scares me is a bunch of people willing to resort to authoritarianism to impose their will and moralities on other people to get their way who ought to know better from literally the whole of human history. Your argument is the same tired shit I have heard for decades from various groups with an eye and agenda for control and power (evangelicals, fascists, elitists, now these leftist authoritarians) and its always the same lame excuse—“They are not educated and cannot be trusted”.
Your argument is too general: it 'proves' too much. The way you talk, any kind of social change is 'authoritarianism'.
I don’t want an authority that is so feared that the people are afraid to speak out against it or cannot be changed.
Today, there are people afraid that, if they engage in climate activism, they will be evicted from their homes, denied medical treatment, and left to starve to death. Several governments are labelling people 'extremists' for blocking traffic with their (somehow) non-violent protests, and enforcing laws against them that were originally designed for terrorism.
> I don’t want an authority that is so feared that the people are afraid to speak out against it or cannot be changed.
To be clear: I agree with this. But this definition of "authoritarianism" isn't compatible with what you were originally complaining about. Every action is an imposition of will on the universe: imposition of will is neither the main problem with, nor the characteristic feature of, authoritarianism.
Where are these people? If they are in the US, their fears are completely unfounded and frankly ridiculous. However, the lesson here is that those are things authoritarian governments will do. So why would climate change activists advocate for authoritarian solutions if they are already concerned about what authoritarians can do to the people they disagree with? It comes down to a desire for the power they are scared of
> Several governments are labelling people 'extremists' for blocking traffic with their (somehow) non-violent protests, and enforcing laws against them that were originally designed for terrorism.
So blocking traffic on major roads is pretty extreme and is quite possibly the dumbest way to motivate any public change for their cause (The second dumbest being throwing soup and defacing artwork.).
Get arrested, don't show up at work, get fired (totally legal: it's an at-will state!), lose your health insurance, can't pay rent, eviction, now your former landlord wants you to pay for your own eviction… You can apply for SNAP without an address of residence, so long as you can receive letters, but if not, you're reliant on savings or charity until you can get back on your feet. Alternatively, your employer doesn't like your activism and fires you for it; or your landlord doesn't (though this is potentially less bad than job loss – depends on circumstance).
You don't even have to be an activist in the US for these sorts of things to happen: but activism is the opposite of keeping your head down, and makes them more likely.
Demonstrative political activism is never without cost. That's basic signalling theory.
> So blocking traffic on major roads is pretty extreme
Cutting off the king's head is pretty extreme. Falling under the king's horse is pretty extreme, refusing to eat until food is poured into your lungs is pretty extreme, hiding Jews in the basement of a Nazi officer's villa is pretty extreme. How is blocking traffic extreme?
Nobody calls it 'pretty extreme' when the rubbernecking after a car crash blocks traffic on major roads: that's just a cost of doing transport. Does the purposefulness, the meaningfulness, make blocking a road for a few days an extreme act?
> motivate any public change for their cause
The problem is political will. Doesn't matter how many people want universal suffrage, if the people in charge won't call a referendum.
> The second dumbest being throwing soup and defacing artwork.
If you're referring to the Just Stop Oil protests in October: they threw soup at a piece of glass in front of an artwork, and placed paper in front of another. Damage occurred to two frames and a small amount of varnish: none to the actual paint of any paintings. No artwork was destroyed, or even damaged. (If anything, art was created.)
Yes, actions have consequences. You have a right to protest, but if your method of protest has a law breaking component to it and you are arrested for that law you broke, there could be downstream consequences to your action. The very same thing can happen for any reason you may chose to break a law. Activism doesn’t give you a law breaking pass.
> How is blocking traffic extreme?
Would you do this on the regular just for the fun or utility of it?
> The problem is political will. Doesn't matter how many people want universal suffrage….
Is that the problem? Seems to me what you are describing as a lack of “political will” is really your own impatience.
> No artwork was destroyed, or even damaged. (If anything, art was created.)
Yeah I am sure that striking the protective safety glass over the Velázquez painting 10x with hammers just to test to make sure it wouldn’t break and destroy the painting before they reinterpreted the masterpiece with their bold warholian-pollock style.
If you're following the rules, if you're behaving as you would “on the regular”, it's not a protest.
Regarding climate change, of course people are impatient! We have no way to remove CO₂ from the atmosphere, so every month spent waiting is a month where things get permanently worse. It'll be hundreds of years before things start approaching the conditions of the average living person's childhood, and that's if we stop everything now, quickly enough that people will die from lack of infrastructure.
[0]: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/campaigns-blog/public-order...
[1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/freedom-of-expression/...
Tossing out a bunch of hypotheticals doesnt convince me of anything as plausible and or likely.
“If we can’t pass a carbon tax due to lack of political will, find other points of leverage and exert force.”
Just to review: In the US, even at the state-level, you elect officials to handle governance on your behalf. You typically elect an official to a lower legislative house, an upper legislative house, and a governor.
All 3 must cooperate in some fashion for legislation to become law, unless the state has a stipulation that a threshold of legislative members may override the governor.
As a resident you have say in each legislative chamber and for the state-level governor seat.
Now, it's the responsibility of a truly functional legislative body to respond to unpopular political objectives by determining if the electorate wants another solution or wants the issue dropped altogether. If the legislative body makes an error, one may vote out their representative via a party primary or via scheduled elections. If they have made a grave error, typically this can be resolved via the courts as a check.
While a carbon tax may very well be unpopular due to political will, a bill is proposing an alternative mechanism. This is a legislative body working as designed.
So no, this isn't authoritarianism.
I am ok with change that happens via the normal democratic process with all the checks and balances and time it takes to get us there. I am not ok with change against the will of a democratic society under the threat of force out side of the established political process. If you are imposing your will on me and my society against our wishes, that is authoritarianism.
~1.8M voters over the age of 55 age out every year in the US, so while the argument may be tired, older folks won’t have to hear it for long (and change, while constant and inevitable, can be hard to accept).
Once upon a time, us liberals argued against that sort of thing. Probably because we saw first hand what it does to a society. Good luck, like you said, you will need to live under the fist in that world you create, I’ll be thankfully gone.
This is hard to support if you study much history. Every environmental law has been criticized as authoritarian. In the middle of the previous century, Los Angeles had smog so bad it was common not to be able to see across the street and some conservatives argued that doing anything about it was tyranny and would devastate the economy; California’s air quality laws were so effective that they were widely copied and it devastated the economy into 5th place globally. Very few of the critics ever admitted being completely wrong about that, even if they will admit that it’s easier to breathe now.
That pattern repeats for water quality, bans on all kinds of pollutants, anti littering campaigns, etc. because there are a lot of industries which have a financial incentive in preserving the status quo. Often those pushes cut across industry lines, too: for example, a decade ago there was an astroturf campaign arguing that DDT restrictions were responsible for malaria deaths (based on people not knowing that evolved resistance was already a major problem in the 1950s), and that appeared to be funded not by the chemical industry but by the tobacco companies who were looking for attacks on public health agencies in Africa in response to successful anti smoking campaigns.
People may describe things as authoritarian in process, but once the law is established by elected representatives, it is by my definition NOT authoritarian.
Where? When? It’s by definition not applicable to the topic of this thread.
People not having patience for the political process to play out leading them to desire and adopt authoritarian means as their solution to get their way scaring the fuck out of me.
But it's the climate change advocates like you who are overrepresented? You don't represent the majority. Not just in the US, but even more so globally.
Recent polls suggest that opposition to climate change has decreased in the US in the past few years, but it's still just about a majority (and a clear bipartisan majority, if you only count under-30s). https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2022/07/14/americans-div...
Do you have a reason to believe otherwise? We all have a tendency to think our views are more common than they are (unless we're, like, being heckled for them in the streets): maybe the people in your local area are disproportionately opposed to anti-climate-change action?
In addition, if there is less resource extraction in the US which has higher regulation, this will move extraction overseas where there is lighter regulation, but the local politicians feel good about doing something.