HMRC offers a Linux version of Basic PAYE Tools, but it recently stopped working | Hacker News Reader

HMRC offers a Linux version of Basic PAYE Tools, but it recently stopped working

theregister.com

58 pointslproven47 comments

Huh. It works fine for me.

However, sometime around then it stopped launching the bundled browser & started launching the system browser to talk to the webserver that runs in the background & manages the local storage (SQLite IIRC) and communications with HMRC themselves.

So my first guess, if it isn’t working for you, would be to test whether xdg-open does the right thing on your system.

A year or two ago it stopped working entirely due to a libc mismatch, which I had to fix by patching in a more recent libc. That was less fun.

I wish they'd open source tools like this. I wonder what would happen if some kind soul found the bug and squashed it? It's an elf x64 executable. At the very least it has all sorts of references to "TclInvokeObjectCommand" and the like in its symbol table...

Python using TK, Cool.

There might have been a Tk GUI at some point, but these days it’s a local webserver talking to a local browser which handles the UI.

It’s just another rest webapp internally I think.

“Of course, we wouldn't be writing about this if there weren't a snag.”

That’s a shame.

I was one of the (presumably few) people who used the Linux version, until it stopped working for some reason, a few years ago. After that, I got used to booting into Windows one a month to run my little payroll.

TBH, I don't think they should be spending resources on this port.

PS : hi Liam, we met at Fosdem a few weeks ago!

I do. I don't think the government should be requiring Windows; nor do I think they should be outputting any Excel or Word files at all. All ODF files or PDFs. We shouldn't be paying money for HMRC to use it to pay Microsoft for tools that encourage us all to buy more Microsoft products. That sort of thing seems much more basic than "should Apple be allowed to decide what store is on their phones?"

I think that's sensible but you also aren't required to use the basic PAYE tools - there's plenty of other cross-platform packages.

Agree with the sentiment, disagree that PDF is the way to go!

No they should not port it to Linux. They should rewrite it so that it is platform independent.

> PS : hi Liam, we met at Fosdem a few weeks ago!

Waves

:-D

Still works for me. I think there was a libc issue a year or two ago, which was fixable by patching the libc they bundled with the app.

Why cant the tools be made on Java so that they run everywhere? They dont need to be pretty just run.

Agreed, .jar is an underrated deployment mechanism.

Or, you know, make the darned thing a web app.

It is a web app. Runs a local webserver & talks to a browser.

OK, a .WAR file then!

HMRC will never launch a web app for this, as they don't want to be a custodian for company payroll data.

> automatically update

never! ever! no mention of whether the old version still works

You have to update, though not automatically.

New versions are required to handle changes to the PAYE tax rules, which have changed every few months recently. There was a change announced this month which takes effect next month.

If you don't use the updated version, you'll calculate and pay the wrong monthly tax to yourself and your employees.

I'm really surprised the software isn't simply a fully online webapp...

This is designed for small employers - they want something easy like a website, not specialist software they need to install with a database that must be backed up manually.

For those businesses with extreme corner cases ("we don't have internet", "we only pay employees on the full moon", etc), let them continue to use the old paper forms.

> I'm really surprised the software isn't simply a fully online webapp...

They're actually going in the opposite direction. It was possible to file VAT on HMRC's website a couple of years ago, but they've taken that option away. Now you have to use 3rd party software to file VAT.

It's because they added requirements that your filing software is linked to whatever system you use for business accounts, even if it's a spreadsheet for now.

For PAYE, you can use HMRC's tool described in the article, if you're a small enough business, or 3rd party tools, which could be a webapp or not, or your accountant's services.

I agree, a webapp would be much more sensible for PAYE, as it could keep up with the monthly rule changes. If you have a registered business, you already have the login, form-filling support etc you would need, as it is used for other taxes and admin on HMRC's site. In a twist, the HMRC tool the article is about is actually a webapp that runs locally.

For Corporation Tax, you have to use 3rd party software or services. That's been true for a long time. Historically this software was expensive, so most people ended up using an accountant's services even if just to be able to file Corporation Tax after doing their own accounts. It's more accessible now. You can file it on HMRC's website if the company accounts are simple enough. You can file it at the same time as the Companies House statements, if you're organised enough.

For Income Tax from your business, that's going to change to require your filing software to be linked to the system you use for business accounts too, in 2026 or 2027 depending on size of business. I guess that might mean you won't be able to file income tax on HMRC's website any more.

I think pretty much 100% of companies just use the online portals provided by the tax software vendors. Companies without direct access to the internet just file their VAT via their accountant, or manually file them through physical mail.

This is about PAYE, not VAT, but I believe with VAT, there is no longer a physical mail option. All VAT must now be filed digitally in the UK (see Making Tax Digital).

> Companies without direct access to the internet

Don't think HMRC accepts this in 2024.

Someone somewhere will say their religion forbids them to use a computer...

Which is a stupid design of software...

In 2024, tax software ought not to have the tax rules hardcoded, but instead ask the tax authority for a fresh set of rules at startup every time, and alert the user if the rules database ever gets more than 30 days out of date.

Nearly every government makes tax rule changes every year - it just isn't reasonable to hardcode them and require the user buy/install new software every year.

So updating the rules is not the same as updating the software? Who says this is different here? How do you define the difference between a "tax rule" and business logic?

The changes go beyond tax band thresholds and percentages across NIC & IT. Eg the (now-scrapped) Health & Social Care Levy would've been a completely new tax - you need a complex schema to encode that and even then the Treasury will come up with something you haven't thought of next.

I'm no expert on tax software, but my experience deploying it for accountants is that on-prem tax software is usually updated monthly to incorporate new rules.

Tax rules are very complicated and often can't just be expressed as an entry in a database. In that context, downloading a fresh set of rules at startup is effectively the same as auto-updating.

Except for not auto-breaking it so that it doesn't auto-work.

This is from the same government that requires companies submit tax information via a special spreadsheet which has 7 boxes for the 7 numbers they need... But rather than make a webform with 7 textboxes, they make a private JSON API which only approved software vendors have access to, and you then need to use a third party to send your spreadsheet via the private API that only the third party is approved to access...

[1]: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-fill-in-and-submit-your-v...

The API is open to anyone who can demonstrate compliance via the test API. Approval takes 10 working days and there is no cost to the developer. There are currently 544 approved vendors.

The barrier to entry is intentional but low. HMRC specifically does not want people typing numbers into webforms, for perfectly legitimate reasons.

https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/guides/vat-mtd-end-to-...

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/making-tax-digital-software

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-tax-digita...

> for perfectly legitimate reasons.

Could you elaborate?

See the third link, but the short answer is that businesses that keep digital tax records make fewer errors on their returns and pay more in tax. HMRC's analysis suggests that the transition to mandatory digital accounting will reduce underpayments by nearly £400m per year, without imposing disproportionate costs on businesses. The API functionally mandates some level of digitisation, but it's extremely flexible - small businesses can use bridging software to maintain their existing spreadsheet-based workflow, while larger businesses can integrate the API into a bespoke system. What HMRC are really trying to rule out is pen-and-paper bookkeeping.

> businesses that keep digital tax records [...] pay more in tax.

Conversely, businesses that only earn £50 a year probably can have their accounts done in 5 minutes on a napkin, which is why those businesses are less likely to use accounting software and pay less tax on average...

Forcing them to use accounting software won't suddenly make them earn more or pay more taxes. In fact, if the effort of running a tiny business goes up too much, many of them will just shut down.

Businesses with turnover of less than £85,000 are completely exempt from filing VAT returns. Self-employed people with trading income of less than £30,000 will remain exempt from Making Tax Digital for income tax and can continue to file returns using the web form or a paper form.

I guess it's to reduce the validation workload at their end. They'd rather receive numbers generated and validated by a piece of software, rather than numbers that may or may not make sense.

It doesn't seem to help much against fraud. Nearly all bits of accounting software can be manipulated to add/remove amounts from the totals. And remember the government normally only gets to see the totals.

It might help slightly against accidental typos in the 7 numbers. But I really doubt that the transferring of 7 numbers from one bit of software to another once per year is a substantial contributor to accounting errors, when you compare that to hundreds or thousands of invoices/bills that need to be entered into the accountancy software.

I get it, it feels like a regression to me too, but there is method to the madness, their MTD idea is that you don't just plop numbers into some boxes, that they are a product of accountancy software (so that they're accurate).

I've seen some tools bypass this and still allow you to input numbers manually but just via the vendor API.

Yeah I wonder whether MTD has had the intended effect. I've used https://www.comsci.co.uk/100PcVatFreeBridge to submit VAT returns. It takes a spreadsheet as input, and there's no way to validate that the spreadsheet came from some accounting software or used any useful calculations. The user can just create a spreadsheet and enter numbers by hand.

And this is still miles better than everything else out there. In Spain this is hopeless to do yourself, you _must_ have an accountant on retainer for even the simplest of stuff.

It's worse than that. My wife's sarl must file every quarter, in mind-boggling detail, and is mandated to have both labour and fiscal assessors. It took nearly a year to fire an employee who stole €6000 and maliciously crippled operations.

Don't ever operate in Spain.

I've only been a private individual and an auto-entrepreneur (mini-company) in France, but as far as I know everything is fully digital on publicly available websites that anyone can create an account on and submit the necessary information.

Spain is a lost cause in so many regards...

It's annoying, but at least there are free options. Here's one I've used many times:

https://www.comsci.co.uk/100PcVatFreeBridge

Looks like open source clients are available:

https://github.com/cybermaggedon/gnucash-uk-vat

At least, in principle - no idea how well they work.

Edit, I am mistaken, see reply below.

---

The problem is not client availability, the problem is that the API itself is only available to approved vendors.

Certainly for most businesses it will be more convenient to just use the built-in functionality of the accounting software that they almost certainly already use, but for those who really want to do it themselves, there is a process (described in the README of the Gnucash client) for getting credentials.

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