The semiconductor industry hinges on a quartz factory in North Carolina | Hacker News Reader

The semiconductor industry hinges on a quartz factory in North Carolina

tomshardware.com

130 pointsspeckx97 comments

These types of articles/pronouncement always tend to make a connection that is nearly never warranted. That is, the article quotes this tweet that says "The modern economy rests on a single road in Spruce Pine, North Carolina. The road runs to the two mines that is the sole supplier of the quartz required to make the crucibles needed to refine silicon wafers." But the first sentence doesn't really follow from the second.

That is, even if all the silicon wafers are made from this quartz from NC today, it's not really because that is the only possible option, it's because that quartz is the highest quality that can be procured at a relatively low price. But if that factory and quarry went away tomorrow, I have no doubt that the worldwide semiconductor industry would quickly adjust to a different quartz supplier.

I think it's still a very cool factoid, but the subtext that "the whole world economy 'hinges' on a teeny NC town" is false.

This is addressed at the end of the article.

"...Mollick makes it clear in his social media thread that, yes, fully synthetic techniques are available to create similarly pure quartz. However, any sudden closure or interruption of the mining at Spruce Pine would likely cause "pretty catastrophic" disruption (and extra expense) for a few years as the industry scales up manufacturing."

I understand that 25% of all neon production was coming out of Mariupol, Ukraine (and another 25% out of Odessa) prior to the war. It would be interesting to see how the industry coped with a 50% loss of supply.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-ukraine-halts-h...

Even then, I disagree with the characterization in that last sentence.

When billions (trillions?) of dollars are on the line, people and organizations tend to move with a degree of urgency not seen in the normal course of business.

I agree that it wouldn't be catastrophic, but we just saw a semiconductor shortage during COVID. For a lot of us end-users, that mainly meant that we couldn't get a Raspberry Pi, but it did affect some industries where a lot of Micro-controllers (including simple 8-bit AVRs) and even stuff like ADC/DACs weren't available at all or only for way jacked up prices for a while. I think the automotive industry also suffered from that despite all their money because they couldn't just swing a magic wand to make a chip foundry appear in their backyard.

But in the end, everything was fine because as you say, eventually everyone is going to move.

It doesn’t sound like this would cause any short term pain really, just make it harder to spin up new capacity.

Was everything fine in the end?

We would probably never hear about it if for a completely made up example an extra 10k people died because some medical device was being made without some microprocessor that made it more effective or reliable.

It’s possible for things with large scale effects to have large impacts without it becoming well known by people not working in the affected industry or directly impacted.

It's a good point - I was more talking about society as a whole, since we didn't collapse. And we wouldn't collapse if some Quartz mind in North Carolina closes either.

But yes, on an individual level, it can be severe. Like the employees of car manufacturers who lost their jobs because they couldn't make cars for a while because they didn't have the chips needed.

society didnt collapse, but some people bore more of the burden than others.

As another example, I (and many other hardware engineers I know) spent 2021 doing essentially remediation on current designs to keep things in production (by designing in new parts). If there hadn't been shortages, we could have spent that time designing new products that will now either never be released or come to market a year later than they otherwise would have (preventing their use for that year).

Even with billions on the line, semiconductor shortages can take years to resolve.

Consider the 2020–2023 chip shortage, which hit automakers especially hard. When COVID19 struck in 2020, car sales plunged by 30%–90%, inducing many automakers to cancel future chip orders. Then when demand rebounded unexpectedly quickly, automakers found that there were not enough chips to buy, nor enough available manufacturing capacity to make them.

This shortage of chips was severe. Every major automaker (including Toyota,Volkswagen, Daimler, Ford, Honda, and GM) were forced to idle manufacturing plants. In 2021 alone, the chip shortage reduced auto production by ~11 million vehicles, costing an estimated $210B in auto revenue(!). In response, the White House convened 3 summits and signed the CHIPS and Science Act of 2022.

Building extra semiconductor manufacturing tools takes years. Even in late 2022, lead times of various tools were as high as 24-30 months, and lead times of some chips were still over 100 weeks.

Literally hundreds of billions of dollars of automotive revenue (tens of billions of profit) were sitting as a prize to anyone who could make some extra chips for automakers. And this is a relatively “easy” task - automotive is only a small ~10% slice of the semiconductor market, and doesn’t even need the leading edge technology nodes, where production is even more bottlenecked. Yet even with this massive prize of billions of dollars, the industry couldn’t match this demand in under 3 years. It’s not for lack of skill or effort — these companies have hundreds of thousands of employees, a large fraction with advanced degrees — but simply because the modern semiconductor supply chain is fantastically complex.

When designing a supply chain, cost trades off against resilience. If you minimize cost (e.g., single sourcing crucibles from the lowest cost provider), you lose resilience (e.g., it may take you months to recover from that single source going offline unexpectedly).

One easy way for the automakers to solve their problems would be to exploit Moore's law, and move all of their designs to a 28nm planar node of transistor production (which are somewhat more durable than the smaller FINFET nodes).

Because many of them were still at 180nm (or higher), they wasted the silicon material with a much larger die size.

Spend the money to stay current. Nobody is going to mass-produce vacuum tubes for you overnight.

I think the automotive chip shortage actually shows the opposite of what you think it does. The industry largely shut down, a global pandemic causing massive shipping issues for a huge range of components hitting a complex industry focused on just in time supply chains and complex logistics combined with poor forecasting of demand resulted in a 12% reduction in output over a year. Which then quickly caught back up.

That’s so wildly far from catastrophe it’s laughable, economic swings frequently have larger impacts on car sales. The pandemic hurt the automobile industry less than several others, companies didn’t fail, and things quickly caught back up.

So yes disruptions mean a temporary reduction in output and possibly a significant period catching up, but suggesting it would take an industry years to deal with X issue just doesn’t line up with how companies actually behave.

As I understand it, the "legacy" production capacity that the automobile manufacturers canceled/forfeited was (re)sold to other customers. When car sales picked up, the order books were full and there were were no immediately-available fabs.

The foundries did not appear to have as substantial of a downturn.

Small correction: billions on the line over the time period of the current generation of CEOs' tenures.

Neon supply disruption started earlier with the Donbas war, so companies were already adapting to the neon squeeze. Approaches used include developing neon production capacity outside of Ukraine, optimizing process control to reduce neon consumption, and recycling neon gas that would formerly have been vented to the atmosphere:

"Gigaphoton Announces Neon Gas Rescue Program" (2015)

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150708005017/en/Gig...

"Linde installs neon production facility at ASU in Texas" (2016)

https://www.gasworld.com/story/linde-installs-neon-productio...

"Noble gases and the shock of war: Laser and semiconductor manufacturers adjust to price increases while securing supply chains" (2023)

https://spie.org/news/photonics-focus/mayjune-2023/supplying...

"Samsung to use recycled neon gas in chip manufacturing" (2024)

https://www.kedglobal.com/korean-chipmakers/newsView/ked2024...

Silicon wafers aren't made from that quartz; the crucibles in which silicon is melted is. The wafers themselves are made from metallurgical silicon that is subsequently converted to trichlorosilane, then repeatedly distilled to remove impurities, and then converted back to elemental silicon.

If we didn't have sufficiently pure quartz for the crucibles we could oxidize some of that purified silicon back into silicon dioxide and use that instead.

The first chemist who performed this process actually went to a college near my house.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Marcus_Olson

This wasn’t first? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39819030

Not for silicon, as far as I know.

https://www.bayjournal.com/columns/past_is_prologue/you-prob...

From his obituary:

"A critical component in the design was a diode that would allow electrons to flow in one direction only, requiring the use of pure silicon. Mark's research at DuPont pinpointed a way to purify the element, and he himself grew the first crystal of hyper-pure silicon. This forged the way for DuPont to embark on a silicon production program that over the next 50 years led to the development of radar, silicon transistors, semiconductors and the Silicon Valley computer phenomenon."

https://somd.com/announcements/obits/name/4855-Carl-Marcus-O...

It's kind of like peak oil. It's the price, not the amount. So 'peak oil' isn't completely wrong, it's just complicated.

---

> I think it's still a very cool factoid, but the subtext that "the whole world economy 'hinges' on a teeny NC town" --is false.--

is oversimplified to the point of being misleading.

Peak oil is defined in terms of production. When total global production decreases, the moment of maximum production will be peak oil. Unless of course it's later exceeded, which could easily happen.

Why this will happen, when this will happen, and what the economic consequences will be, we can only speculate about. But it's the amount, not the price.

You are correct, of course. However, most of those using the "peak oil" scare tactic try to pretend that once "peak oil" is reached, there will be a sudden and drastic drop in oil production.

I think that's what the person you're responding to was alluding to.

Other similar articles:

- lithium from Chile

- phosphates from Belarus

- rare earths from China

There is a similar fallacy that I've seen many engineers & teams fall into. The occupy "critical" roles which without, the whole chain would break and everything would fall apart

However often times the project only needs that one critical role and can replace it fairly easily. (the on-ramp off-ramp costs are lower than the cost of redundancy or other political costs)

Ironically, "non-critical" roles can be more important from a business narrative or core competency pov.

E.g. "the AI expert/team" leaving breaks the narrative of being an AI company even if all they do is non-critical path exploratory research. The inability to get new hires breaks the narrative of a growth-company etc...

There is more leverage in being able to direct narrative energy than in being nominally critical

> E.g. "the AI expert/team" leaving breaks the narrative of being an AI company even if all they do is non-critical path exploratory research.

I find myself in this position (but, not AI). That sole researcher doesn't just have "narrative" power. I make prototypes which are fleshed out into products by more capable engineers. Without me, the team is a bunch of engineers with great intuition on engineering and some familiarity with my niche -- but not the depth of knowledge required for keen intuition. The result would be either stagnation, or very inefficient research as an engineer attempts to step into the research role, hoping to accidentally rediscover decades of specialized knowledge.

An AI company without an AI just won't be able to execute at the pace of an AI company with that expert. And likewise, us niche experts don't go far without a solid engineering team to back us up.

> I think it's still a very cool factoid, but the subtext that "the whole world economy 'hinges' on a teeny NC town" is false.

Let them have their mistaken day in the sun, I've no doubt that the market would adjust pretty quickly rather than, you know, stop making semiconductors forever if this place disappeared off the map.

There's a whole school of "Industry X is totally dependent on far flung facility Y" journalism. ("your cellphone depends on coltan from African wars" from a few years back is the worst offender - not that people shouldn't be concerned with such wars but concern should be based on a reasonable lens).

That said, the world has experienced quite a few supply chain disruptions in recent years and a big factor is large-scale, highly capitalized enterprises wind-up preferring situations of not producing at all to situations of increasing or continuing production at a lower profit rate for an emergency situation. (I remember covid vaccine production was limited by drug companies unwillingness to invest in new gene printing machines, US hospitals didn't buy US made masks because neither the mask manufacturer would make/accept short-term contracts at temporarily higher prices, etc. We all whine about AMD's unwillingness to compete directly with Nvidia with a Cuda-clone system).

Which is say, yes markets generally take risks into account but some amount of fragility seems to be a risk markets are willing to pay.

We don't have the vocabulary to separate two ways people use "critical": "required for something's functioning", and "not substitutable".

A tire is critical to a car's functioning, but there's plenty of brands to choose from if one tire company goes bust. Ofc, substitutability is a matter of degree - cost/time.

Any language can explain that difference easily. Even if all the article said was that this factory was "critical" to the semiconductor industry, I wouldn't have commented. Saying "the semiconductor industry hinges on a quartz factory..." or "The modern economy rests on a single road in Spruce Pine, North Carolina" is a very different type of deliberate hyperbole.

Those are true statements in the exact same way, though! "Hinges" and "rests" are used in the same way as "critical". Ofc, this requires some interpretive thought - and that may be a lot to ask of a general reader.

This comment reads like someone that has already forgotten about the supply chain nightmare of the past couple of years. Yeah, And, So to the idea that other suppliers can, could, might be available.

How long does it take to suddenly have those suppliers ramp up their production to the same levels? How long does it take for a new shipper to be found from that new location? How long does it take to make any changes to the processing because it's the same but different as far as what is coming in?

Switching to a new vendor when you're comparing shopping at Walmart, Target, Amazon is not any where close to the same thing as receiving raw material from a new vendor for an industrial process.

These comments about the Covid supply chain issues only further prove my point:

1. Most importantly, the pandemic was global. Pretty much every country was affected, so it's not like if you wanted to switch supply chains from one place to another that the other place didn't also have significant pandemic issues.

2. I never said their wouldn't be an adjustment, I'm just arguing that you always see this type of hyperbole like "The world economy hinges on one tiny town in North Carolina!!", as if this is the sole source of vibranium like in the Black Panther movie. Even at the height of the pandemic, with major supply disruptions, I'd hardly call a 12% decline in vehicle output or a Christmas without a PlayStation some sort of "catastrophe". If this factory disappeared tomorrow, yes, a ton of people in the semiconductor industry would scramble, and you might see some prices rise short term, but the average person would probably not even notice.

you're like a fence post. it does NOT matter if there are other providers of the mineral. if all users of the mineral are getting it from one supplier, there will be disruptions when that supplier is no longer available. it cannot be described any more simply than that.

you're monday morning quarterback analysis is just off. the industry has decided that this supplier's material is the best for them for reasons. therefore, the world economy <of this material> does hinge on it whether you want to call it hyperbolic or not.

> you're like a fence post

Do you get this excited about everything?

Excited? I'm actually quite bored with you

> there will be disruptions when that supplier is no longer available. it cannot be described any more simply than that

"disruptions" and "nightmare" are not synonyms.

> you're like a fence post. it does NOT matter if there are other providers of the mineral.

You are arguing that your frame of reference is correct. This is not an argument you can win, because it requires all parties to agree to that foremost. Also, don't call people names. It's against the rules cough guidelines - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Name calling doesn't strengthen your position...which you don't need to do anyway.

> I think it's still a very cool factoid, but [...] is false.

Technically, that falsehood is what makes it a factoid, since it resembles-but-isn't a fact, just like how a spheroid is not a true sphere, a meteoroid/asteroid isn't a true meteor/star, an android/gynoid isn't a true man/woman, and almost every other -oid word out there.

Now, there are some philistines out there who claim that popular misuse means the "correct" definition of factoid has changed recently... But either way, I still find it amusing that everyone agrees that "A factoid is a small fact" is itself a factoid.

Thank you. Have a great day.

Yes. It's not like similar factories haven't suddenly stopped production elsewhere:

https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/ci/research-an...

It was uncomfortable for a while, but the world didn't end. Supply chains adjusted pretty quickly.

The point isn’t that it’s a strictly necessary part of the chain, rather that it is now a significant choke point.

Fun fact, the quartz is used to make the big crucibles where the silicon wafers crystallize by starting from a seed in the center which is slowly drawn upward. My grandmother was a quartz salesperson for GE for decades (they sourced their quartz from this same company) and they make the crucibles. My grandma lived in a place with a small yard and her garden was planted in these very modern-looking quartz crucibles that were destined for chipmakers but had some tiny flaw on the inner surface so they couldn't be sold.

I was very confused initially because you talked about 'seed' as well as a garden. Do you mean something like this? [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czochralski_method

Yes, exactly.

That's neat!

My uncle gave me a bunch of large electrical insulators from the old high-tension transmission lines heading West from Hoover Dam. They make great yard ornaments.

Quartz singing bowls have historically been sourced from flawed crucibles. I don't know if that's still true exclusively or even primarily. Just always thought it was cool.

There have been past articles on this subject.

2009: https://throughthesandglass.typepad.com/through_the_sandglas...

2013: https://siliconmountain.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/ultra-pure-...

2018: https://www.wired.com/story/book-excerpt-science-of-ultra-pu...

2019: https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-chi...

The quartz being formed when Africa and North Carolina were one and pressed up against one another is really neat. Similar, NC is the only major source in the US for emeralds for the same reason.

There's a competitor in Drag, Norway.[1]

There was a startup in Australia that was going to mine ultra-high quality quartz.[2] No site updates since 2021.

[1] https://www.thequartzcorp.com/location/drag

[2] https://ultrahpq.com

I recently toured an MRI factory. They used 20 tons of quartz per week to mix in with the epoxy resin that encases the gradient coils. Its thermal stability makes it desirable.

That makes sense: so the alignment doesn't shift as the gradient coils operate and heat up, right? Those aren't the superconducting coils, they have Ohmic heating.

No, not superconducting.

Body and gradient coils I believe. They get a lot of current through them. 3x 200 amps at 2000 volts if I recall correctly. They have cooling pipes too.

If a cable wiggles loose it’s a big deal with that much power in use, they start to smoke. Running that that current is a large force on any connections.

Having had quite a few MRIs, the idea of being stuck in the MRI machine and it starting to smoke is quite terrifying.

For people who haven't had the experience, generally getting an MRI involves being stuck in a narrow tube (I'm just under 6'5" so with the proportions of my shoulders I literally just fit in) inside the machine for a long time. Everyone else leaves the room and goes into a nearby operating room and communicates with you over a headset. So if the machine was to catch fire you would literally be trapped inside it and unable to move, which is a really horrific thought.

Any excessive heat would usually be at the gradient connection points in the faraday cage, the gradient cabinets (different room) or edge of scanner. Not a lot better, but fractionally so.

We get Vesda [1] alerts when the air pressure changes or when combustion products are detected. It’s ludicrous how sensitive a Vesda is, you won’t get burnt. If you open to door aggressively you can trigger an alert.

New scanners are now mostly 70cm diameter and some are 80cm. They can be quite relaxing. I recommend a large lunch and being scanned while paid for your time.

[1] https://www.fireline.com/what-is-a-vesda-system/

That's good to know.

I honestly always fall asleep inside them[1] in spite of the fact that the noise is very loud even with the cans on. I'm not sure why I find the experience so relaxing.

[1] Has happened about 5 out of about 6 MRI scans so not "always" but very often.

Interesting, I wonder if this if this is the same geological source of quartz that makes a bunch of the gulf coast beaches really white.

Is there anywhere that explains how a semiconductor is made, from start to finish, which really goes into this topic at the level of “these are the critical raw materials, these are the specific types that are of sufficient quality given today’s manufacturing processes, etc.”?

Local mines also produce the materials used to make nuclear weapons, which on more than one occasion has led to anti-proliferation protests in Asheville.

If this is true, they should charge more.

Are they trying to give terrorists a target? What a reckless thing to tweet and publish

Sooo... What is that powder that would irreversibly contaminate those mines?

SCR - SIBELCO on euronext in case anyone wants to the follow the pump.

Is there a special name for this type of article yet? I guess the word FUD used to be thrown around everywhere and I got sick of it a while ago. So is this how chinese infiltrators are publicly broadcasting ideal targets? Or just how you induce fear in an entire population by reminding them of constant easy to take out bottlenecks?

Tangentially, this looks like a seriously unpleasant neighbor to live next to:

- "Dozens of dead fish have died and are washing up on the banks of the North Toe River after a reported hydrofluoric acid leak at a Spruce Pine quarry, state officials say."

https://wlos.com/news/local/dozens-of-fish-in-north-toe-rive...

- "Officials told people who live within four miles of the plant to evacuate their homes because of the fire."

https://www.blueridgenow.com/story/news/2008/11/30/spruce-pi...

The global semiconductor manufacturing industry, and all of modern society, on the one hand...

Dozens of dead fish on the other. Dozens!

I mean, there were also children playing in the hydrofluoric acid spill.

- "Tuesday, moms Katrina Benfield and Nikki Bennett returned to the river with their children. They said they had all been swimming in the North Toe about 4 p.m. when they began to see dead fish float around them and wash ashore."

- ""I'm not happy at all," Benfield said. "I had my children in here. They fish, we eat the fish.""

- "Bennett said everyone got out of the water as soon as they saw the dead fish."

- ""My daughter actually picked one up and said the scales looked like they had been burnt," she said."

- "Cecilia McCool, 15, said her eyes began to sting and she began to feel light-headed while swimming in the river Sunday. Within 10 minutes, she said she began to see the fish floating and told friends and family to get out of the river."

Hydrofluoric acid (HF) is a highly corrosive and dangerous substance that can pass through the skin and into the bones. There are many things wrong with it that make it different from other common acids like sulfuric acid.

Penetration: Unlike other acids that cause immediate pain and visible burns on the skin, hydrofluoric acid can penetrate the skin quickly without causing immediate pain or visible damage.

Skin damage: Once absorbed through the skin, hydrofluoric acid continues to cause deep tissue damage, which may not be immediately apparent.

Bone and joint damage: Hydrofluoric acid has a high affinity for calcium and can cause decalcification of the bones, leading to severe bone damage and potentially fatal electrolyte imbalances. It can also cause joint damage and pain.

Systemic effects: If left untreated, hydrofluoric acid poisoning can lead to systemic effects such as hypocalcemia (low blood calcium levels), hypomagnesemia (low blood magnesium levels), and hyperkalemia (high blood potassium levels), which can cause cardiac arrhythmias and death.

Treatment: Immediate treatment is crucial for hydrofluoric acid exposure. Calcium gluconate gel is typically applied to the affected area to neutralize the acid and prevent further damage. In severe cases, intravenous calcium and magnesium may be necessary to treat systemic effects.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has established a permissible exposure limit (PEL) for hydrofluoric acid at 3 ppm (parts per million) as an 8-hour time-weighted average (TWA) concentration. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) recommends an even lower exposure limit of 3 ppm as a ceiling limit, not to be exceeded at any time.

Thanks ChatGPT!

Please, this is not ChatGPT! (If nothing else the math is actually correct, something LLMs suck at)

The average volume of water in one square kilometer of a river basin can vary greatly depending on the specific characteristics of the basin, such as its topography, geology, climate, and land use. Factors like precipitation, evaporation, infiltration, and water abstraction also play significant roles in determining the water volume within a basin.

However, to provide a rough estimate, we can use the concept of average runoff depth. Runoff depth is the average depth of water that would cover the entire basin if all the water flowing through it in a given time period were evenly distributed across the basin's surface.

In the United States, the average annual runoff depth varies widely, ranging from less than 0.1 inches (2.54 mm) in some arid regions to more than 40 inches (1,016 mm) in some humid regions. For this example, let's assume an average annual runoff depth of 20 inches (508 mm).

To calculate the volume of water in one square kilometer of the basin, we can use the following formula:

Volume = Area × Average runoff depth

Given:

Area of the basin = 1 square kilometer = 1,000,000 square meters Average annual runoff depth = 20 inches = 0.508 meters Volume = 1,000,000 m² × 0.508 m = 508,000 m³

This means that, on average, one square kilometer of this hypothetical river basin would contain about 508,000 cubic meters of water annually. However, it's essential to note that this is a highly simplified estimation, and actual water volumes can vary significantly depending on the specific characteristics of the basin and the time period considered.

The North Toe River has an approximate basin area of 2968.7 km²

2968.7 km² × (508000 m³/km²) / m³ = 1,508,099,600 m³ of water

Given:

Target concentration = 3 ppm = 3 mg/L

Volume of water = 1,508,099,600 m³

Concentration of concentrated HF = 48% w/w (weight by weight) = 480,000 mg/L (assuming the density of 48% HF is approximately 1 kg/L)

Step 1: Convert the volume of water from cubic meters to liters. Volume of water = 1,508,099,600 m³ = 1,508,099,600,000 L

Step 2: Calculate the mass of HF needed to reach the target concentration. Mass of HF = Target concentration × Volume of water Mass of HF = 3 mg/L × 1,508,099,600,000 L = 4,524,299 kg

Step 3: Calculate the volume of concentrated HF needed. Volume of HF = Mass of HF ÷ Concentration of HF Volume of HF = 4,524,299 kg ÷ (480,000 mg/L ÷ 1,000,000 mg/kg) = 9,425,623 L

Therefore, approximately 9,425,623 liters of 48% concentrated hydrofluoric acid would need to be added to the entire river basic to reach a concentration of 3 parts per million.

If the affected area is 1 km out of the 118.4 km length of the river, this would require in a spill of approx. 79,600 liters of 48% concentrated hydrofluoric acid to reach a concentration of 3 parts per million.

What I don't understand at all is how this is possibly an accident. It is hard to release such quantities of hydrofluoric acid by accident.

US environmental laws and industrial safety enforcement are basically a farce.

Not true, there is a significant improvement relative to 1969, the end of an era where a river in Ohio caught on fire 11 times between 1869 and 1969.

That doesn't contradict what I said. If you get a 65 on the test instead of a 30, your score significantly improved, but you still flunked.

You can't quantify the improvement in these terms because you yourself don't have a way to measure it.

Edit because I can't reply:

What is abundantly clear is the main areas with severe problems with water pollution today are Africa and the Indian Subcontinent: https://ourworldindata.org/clean-water

It's pretty clear from the number of ongoing current catastrophes (PFAS, more recently BPA, cities with lead pipes) that what we're doing now isn't enough. Can we start from that as a point of agreement?

This is pure propaganda, one of the many reasons HF is really bad is because it doesn't hurt at all, at least in the beginning.

Environmental disasters are really bad by themselves, adding propaganda on top only weakens the cause and makes people in the know not care.

Sounds like they should have the resources to make sure they're not polluting.

Take this line of reasoning to an extreme and you have The Ganges River.

I’m still disappointed Wikipedia removed the addendum to the article about “Louisiana Woman, Mississippi Man” comparing the Mississippi River’s water quality at the time to the Ganges quantitatively.

It’s North Carolina. That’s not even a Tuesday. We routinely have spills that dump millions of a gallons of concentrated hog shit directly into our rivers. Most of those rivers are also downstream of one of the major producers of PFAS.

Goldman Sachs should buy them out.

Nah. Morgan Stanley. Diversification. They're the ones that bought all the Chicago parking meters.

Ideally it would be a private equity, so they would be immune from reporting obligations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Parking_Meters

for those not in the know. Chicago basically sold all revenue from their parking meters to Saudi Arabia for the next 75 years. Not basically, that is exactly what happened.

"Chicago basically sold all revenue from their parking meters to Saudi Arabia for the next 75 years."

According to your wiki link, only 25% are owned by a Saudi Arabian company. The rest is mostly US.

Or is Morgan Stanley owned by Saudi Arabia now?

TL;DR: it's complicated[0]. Also, you're right - I'm mistakenly conflating SA with the UAE.

[0]https://www.reddit.com/r/chicago/comments/164hefi/comment/jy...

Similarly the Canadian province of Ontario leased it's only toll highway for 99 years to an international group, for an amount it currently earns in tolls every ~2 years. Fun.

You're missing the bigger picture though. By doing so they managed to look like they had balanced the budget in an election year. That's what really matters here.

Earns, or receives in revenue?

‘Earns’ implies net profit after all expenses (including operations and maintenance), which I find hard to believe in this specific case.

Fair. At the current rate, the revenue takes two years to cover the original cost. The net profit takes 6. The margins are quite good due to consistent price increases.

Abu Dhabi isn’t in Saudi Arabia.

The UAE is a completely different country than Saudi Arabia, the article doesn't mention Saudi Arabia at all, it claims that the sovereign wealth fund of the Emirate of Abu Dhabi in the UAE indirectly owns ~25% of the company that bought the parking revenue, and the article's total of direct ownership claims adds up to 123.408%, which is somewhat improbable and calls into question the other ownership claims.

Interesting - paid $1.15B and currently up $0.5B with 60 years to go, so the meters are generating $1.65B per 15 years, which'll be $8.25B (assuming no price increases) over the 75 years.

If you do the math, going from $1.15B to $8.25B in 75 years is only a 2.66% annual rate of return.

I wonder if the Saudi's saw this as a good investment, or a good PR deal ?

Why assume no price increases? Also, parking meters in a car centric region seem like they would be closer to government bonds than equities in terms of risk profile, so the return would need to be compared to something like that.

I just meant the math assumes no price increases. I'd have to guess that there are some agreed-upon price increases in the deal (2.66% too unattractive), and I see there was a recent failed lawsuit by Chicago drivers protesting high prices (downtown $7/hr), so they probably have gone up.

I vaguely recall reading about clauses granting lost parking spot profit for e.g. streets being closed for parades or construction that were pretty heavy handed as well. I wonder how true those were.

I don’t live there any more and that still makes my blood boil. I especially loved the politicians who voted in favor and claimed they did not have time to read the legislation. “I’m not corrupt, just incompetent”

> Goldman Sachs should buy them out.

And sell it to China for a tidy profit.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com