DongleHider+ Framework Laptop Expansion Card | Hacker News Reader

DongleHider+ Framework Laptop Expansion Card

github.com

251 pointsrcarmo99 comments

My X230 has essentially the same thing (well, two actually; one from the old Bluetooth connector [0] and one poaching the connector from the docking pins), nice to see the same concept being hacked onto more modern laptops

[0] https://files.catbox.moe/ezqhuq.jpg

Woah that's cool. did you make that yourself?

I have some think pads so I went looking - it's either an official or third party addon for one or a few models for wifi USB dongles or something you can get.

What did you search for?

The pic I sent is of a USB mod from aliexpress replacing the normal Bluetooth connector, you can find information about it by searching "x230 internal USB" or something similar.

Its quite a popular mod as modern WiFi cards have integrated Bluetooth anyway, so there's no need for the old dedicated Bluetooth radio.

I bought it off aliexpress (and the image wasn't mine, I didn't want to open my laptop) but they're pretty inexpensive (~$5).

I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to make one yourself, the connector communicates over USB so its just a matter of connecting the right pins to a proper female USB connector

https://www.virustotal.com/gui/url/a7d41af146c193701c25910ed...

Looks like a false positive

The page also fails to load in firefox with SEC_ERROR_UNKNOWN_ISSUER

Works fine here on Firefox/macOS.

Someone posts a link which has multiple virus scanners reporting the image as being malicious, and you thought that it’s fine to download that file to your machine and open it?

It loading fine has nothing to do with if it’s malicious or not, that’s kinda the whole point of malware and viruses.

Multiple is a stretch when one scanner marks it as malicious and one marks it as suspicious and all the rest report it as fine. It’s very likely a false positive.

It's a jpeg.

https://gizmodo.com/malware-images-virus-photos-pictures-how...

Sure, but opening the image in a browser wont run any malware even if there's one concealed inside the image data that can be extracted by specific "innocent-looking" software.

The only possibility of doing something that bad (i.e. running the malware by just opening the image) would be a malformed image that manages to do a buffer overflow in the image parser of the browser (see this recent example: https://chromereleases.googleblog.com/2023/09/stable-channel...)... but I rather think that this specific case is just a false positive.

EDIT: someone in the thread apparently rescanned the file (I didn't check if the file was the same or was modified in-between on the original site) and it indeed appears clean now.

> which has multiple virus scanners reporting the image as being malicious

2 random scanners, only one of which reports it as malicious. It's flagging the domain because it's a file sharing site.

Take 2 seconds and scan the actual file before accusing people of spreading malware.

https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/b2353556793cab2e417fd6ed...

Here's the original image link from reddit if you don't believe me[0]

I reuploaded it to catbox since the post was deleted (so I don't know how much longer the image link will stay valid) and reddit image links have a bunch of other webshit garbage thrown into them nowadays

[0] https://external-preview.redd.it/PvXxaK_h2etJq_6A6VMNjQNbtO7...

Fun fact: this is possible because on both hardware level and protocol level USB 1.1/2.0 is essentially completely detached from USB 3.0+. The hub is only in the path of the 2.0 data lines, the 3.0 lines go straight from the laptop to the outside connector.

Does this mean that the outside connector lacks 2.0?

I'm curious about the RF-interference there.

After all, the small antenna of the dongle is now _inside_ the laptop, and very close to high-bandwidth USB data-lines.

(And possibly other sources of interference, depending on the expansion port it's connected to. If I use a right-hand mouse and the card is in a left slot, the signal would more or less have to travel through the entire laptop...)

I'd be curious about this as well, I have one of these Logitech dongles and if I plug a USB3 device in the port next to it (say a SD card reader or external drive) the logitech device, my mouse in this case, becomes basically unusable due to the interference.

I use a short usb extender to get around this issue with my Bolt receiver, but the regular Unifying ones tend to be fine.

Ferrit beads also work quite well.

Intel NUCs (I didn't note what models) have these same issues and I suspected it was something to do with the USB3 ports interference

What's between the extension card and the framework laptop body? The dongle holder is 3d printed, so then RF Signal should escape relatively well compared to metal, no?

I don't know where it would escape to without interference.

In the direction of the outer module edge is a USB-port (with a large metal grounding) which possibly transfers high-frequency USB-data, in the other directions is the metal body and the laptop PCB (with its own RF-interferences bouncing inside of the chassis).

WiFi, in comparison: I don't know the exact design of the framework laptop, but on others the (two) Wi-Fi Antennas are usually placed on top of the display, to be as far away from the PCB (and the users' hands) as possible.

Probably not significantly different from the dongle being plugged into one of those dual-port sockets. That being said, having a BT dongle right next to an active USB 3 cable is known to cause interference, see [0].

[0]: https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf

I recently made something similar to make use of the unused WWAN M.2 slot in my laptop:

https://i.imgur.com/xGXl4Xt.jpeg

Crack the logitech dongle out of the USB casing and solder on the converter PCB.

Could you share PCB files for that? I don't have experience with designing PCBs myself, but with the files I should be able to just order them from PCBWay.

Here are the original kicad files https://github.com/zevv/m2-to-usb

Please do check for yourself if this all makes sense, and I will not take responsibility for any fried laptopts or dongles. Note that the power supply for the dongle is too low: USB is supposed to deliver 5V, but on the M.2 only 3v3 is available. I decided to just give this a try and my Logitech dongle seems to be perfectly happy at this voltage. This might not be the case for others.

This is something that could be rectified (if you pardon the little pun) with a 50 cent 3v3 to 5v TI charge pump if one wanted.

Also make sure that the data lines do not have over-voltages then (level-shifters on these?).

Also some firmware (bios) only accept certain devices on the M2 slots.

NICE! How did you get it to a working physical thing? Any place somebody like me can buy this?

You just send the design files to a PCB manufacturer and receive the boards on your doorstep a few days later. 5 of these PCB's cost me $6 or so.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255949891266

Right, please use this one instead of my crappy design, this PCB seems comes with a DC/DC converter to properly power your dongle with 5V instead of 3V3.

I'm very ignorant of hardware, but how does this work? I would have thought that M2 and USB protocols were divergent enough that this would require significant hardware/software emulation in the interface, but this looks to be a simple mapping of some I/O.

M2 is just the physical connector. It can carry PCIe, USB, and SATA.

Would be great to see a similar project for a Yubikey, perhaps exposing the tiny metal surface next to a usable USB port. I don't like always having my Yubikey (nano) sticking out of a port, I'm always paranoid about it being knocked off and breaking in the socket.

There's Tomo.im (Somu) for that

Is there a typo in this? I've done some searching and not found anything. tomo.im resolves to GitHub Pages but isn't linked to a site.

I believe this is what they are referring to: https://www.crowdsupply.com/solokeys/somu

GP probably means https://tomu.im/ and pointing to Somu https://tomu.im/somu.html

Thanks (to both of you who pointed this out), I am completely unfamiliar with Tomu so missed this typo.

Yeah the Somu looks like it would be better, but my current laptop only has USB-C and it doesn't look like there's a similarly flat implementation for USB-C. It's also still an important and fragile part sticking out from the laptop body so I think one embedded in an expansion card would still be good!

Also I've got a Yubikey very similar to the Somu, so I don't think this is a Tomu/Somu exclusive concept. The benefit of Yubikey specifically is that they're approved for certain types of specialist access – at work I am required to use a specific implementation, not just any U2F/FIDO key.

Yes, sorry, autocorrect :(

The biggest issue is there's a "touch the key" action in most FIDO flows. I'd love a dedicated framework expansion card with a usba port + fido token, and a tiny touch sensor on the side. Unsure if there's a big enough market for that.

It’s when I see such things that I think Framework laptop is into something.

Is the dongle working correctly even if a USB3 device is plugged in? I had to move mine away from USB3 ports because the RF noise produced by them when active was jamming the receiver. I remember reading about it as a known problem, but maybe just of old versions of the dongle?

it took me a long time to figure out what was going on. sharing the results of googling:

- logitech has a "unifying" line which allows a small receiver [https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/unifying-receiv...] to multiplex a bunch of wireless peripherals, using a single slot

- the doohickey in the OP is a little widget that goes inside the framework laptop, and has a USB A slot on the outside

- it also has room to plug in the unifying receiver, connecting it to the same input the USB A slot is connected to. the receiver then goes inside the framework, and does not take up an external port

- as /u/crote points out, "Fun fact: this is possible because on both hardware level and protocol level USB 1.1/2.0 is essentially completely detached from USB 3.0+. The hub is only in the path of the 2.0 data lines, the 3.0 lines go straight from the laptop to the outside connector."

It still boggles the mind that in 2024 that Logitech still doesn't release a USB-C Unifying dongle.

Probably a marketing ploy to make you buy the more expensive "dongleless" bluetooth mice.

TBH, it just makes good business sense to tie people into the Unifying and Bolt ecosystems, which makes me think they’ve hit a technical or patent snag somewhere.

They are much worse, as BT has inherent lag compared to dongles.

An USB-A dongle can hide snugly.in the connector, and be mechanically strong. You can drop a laptop with it into a backpack without fear.

An USB-C dongle would have to stick out. It would be easy to break off (damaging the port along the way), and more hassle to carry separately.

I wish laptops had a recessed area for USB-C dongles, like, well, Framework does.

What dongle have you seen that can "hide snugly in the connector"? Any that I've seen just stick out.

Yubikey Nano, for one.

My USB-A yubikey fits entirely inside the port, so much so that it’s nearly impossible to remove by hand. My USB-C yubikey has a small plastic nub that sticks out.

While we're here, (slightly off-topic) has anyone had success replacing the touchpad on their Framework? It's... the worst I've ever used.

What is the issue with it?

The buttons are difficult to press, it's especially difficult to right-click, and tapping the pad to click rarely works.

If you are in Windows, make sure you have installed the Driver Bundle: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/bios-and-drivers-down...

If you’re having physical click issues, reach out to support for a replacement module.

On a tangential note, is there any chance of having a system app to allow advanced touchpad controls, like what Synaptics offers? The windows precision trackpad is nice but misses a lot of convenient options like one-finger/infinite scroll that my HP Probook had. For context this image shows some of those options - https://synaptics-pointing-device-driver.en.lo4d.com/screens...

Not on Windows but Ubuntu. I guess I'll reach out, didn't feel defective but perhaps it is. I prefer physical buttons though so I was considering replacing the whole thing anyway.

"tapping the pad to click rarely works" is unambiguously defective; it doesn't need to be rationalized.

Sorry for your experience. Let us know what happens!

> "tapping the pad to click rarely works" is unambiguously defective

Sure but here I'm using defective to mean an uncommon manufacturing defect that can be fixed by simply replacing the part. If the component is just badly designed or manufactured and such failures are typical, it would just be a junk part and getting a replacement wouldn't be likely to help. I wasn't sure if it was the former or latter.

That is very much not typical or expected. On Ubuntu, one other recommendation is to follow our setup guides and leverage the Ubuntu OEM kernels, which have known good drivers for each platform: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Ubuntu+22.04+LTS+Installatio...

Thanks for responding! Didn't realize you were the founder. I'll check my driver configuration first. My original message was a bit harsh so I'd like to take this chance to personally thank you - I love what Framework is doing.

Nice idea, but... for the cost of the PCB + components, the 3D printed case and the time (or extra cost) for soldering the components and the dongle onto the PCB, you could probably get a pretty decent Bluetooth mouse?

what about bluetooth headset?

But it would still be Bluetooth…

Probably better than Unifying... https://github.com/mame82/misc/blob/master/logitech_vuln_sum...

I care less about vulns, more about it actually working properly first. And for that, Bluetooth is bad. And pairing is pain.

Yeah but it'd be pairable and most of the wifi cards that framework ships with all have internal bluetooth.

i.e. you'd no longer need a dongle.

Is it even possible to buy a mainstream laptop without Bluetooth now? Maybe absolutely bottom of the barrel bargain basement sorts of laptops, but probably even those come with it considering how an Intel AX210, a good recent WiFi+BT card, can be had for $15-$20 retail and I’m sure is even cheaper for OEMs (plus, even cheaper crappier chipsets exist).

I don't think so unless you specifically look for it (some govt and def contractor orgs procure no-wireless laptops still for security reasons).

And the AX210 I'm pretty sure is the default Framework wireless card FWIW.

It also means I need to pair, and deal with all the hassle that brings. Much easier to just plug the unify dongle in somewhere rlse

My G502 isn't available as Bluetooth, and I just love that mouse. I'd be happy to deal with the cost if it means I can use it without eating up a port. For the target audience, the DIY aspect of this thiing is probably a feature, not a bug. Putting this thing together sounds like a fun Sunday afternoon project.

Actually, on Linux I saw some occasional benefits of using a dongle over Bluetooth. Wakeup from sleep would work with my keyboard that had a dongle for instance.

Not only on Linux.

Bluetooth is worse for polling rates and latency

If you're into twitch shooters you want wired anyway.

Bluetooth is more convenient if your laptop has the BT built in. Otherwise I guess go with your favourite mouse and plug in whatever dongle is appropriate.

Wireless mice are faster than wired mice*

*At least, LTT put out a video as such some years ago. Regardless, if you like wireless, BT is a bottom of the barrel solution.

That video is classic LTT; interesting idea terribly executed which leads to incorrect conclusions. The latency difference doesn’t matter to humans, but wired is faster.

How can they be? Assuming you're using a usb dongle, the interface is exactly the same. Only the wireless has an extra wireless path in the connection.

There's just no way it can be faster, only equal or slower.

The latency penalty for wireless instead of wired in modern gaming mice is <1ms now. The inaccuracy caused by cable drag will hurt your performance more.

What's the fun in that?

This is great.

Once Framework can ship with optimized battery drivers for Linux I'll be a buyer again.

Framework has a real chance to increase the dent it makes if it takes some software cues from other manufacturers.

PCMCIA is reborn

The PCMCIA card standard was renamed to “PC Card” in 1995.

I wonder if this means I can do the same with other similar unifying dongles.

unrelated, does bluetooth work well with the MX Master 3s?

I use the 2S and the 3 over Bluetooth (Windows 10 and Linux (Pipewire/pulseaudio)) and they generally work well. But on Linux I sometimes get lagging sound on my bt headphones, when I use the mouse heavily, and on Windows I get a rubber band effect on the mouse when I use a headset for calls, but not music. ymmv

I have been using a MX Master 3 (non-S), and an MX Anywhere 2S for the past few years on a daily basis, on multiple devices (Windows, MacOS and Linux). Bluetooth has been working flawlessly every time. I don't think I have ever used the unifying receiver dongle.

This is why I don't understand the DongleHider+ here. If you don't want the dongle, why not just connect via Bluetooth?

In my experience you can't use more than 3 bluetooth devices at the same time.

Currently I have a headset, a mouse and a keyboard. To add anything else I would have to remove something else.

Last year I've built a simple 3-key macro pad using an esp32 connected via bluetooth. When I tried to use 4 devices at the same time I had a pretty bed time.

I don't know this for sure, but I suspect if you have someone else sitting by you side and also using 3 devices I think the interference could cause some strange behaviour.

Battery life and responsiveness.

It doesn't work well anywhere due to BT protocol lag and low refresh rate.

Correct. There's a reason every wireless gaming mouse uses a custom protocol + dongle.

Mine has worked flawlessly for about a year. A few months ago, it’s become horribly janky and I can’t figure out why.

Tried different MX Master 3S units and different computers in different rooms but it’s just janky everywhere now. (Bluetooth keyboards, too.)

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