Fresno School Tracks Students' Bathroom Breaks with Countdown App | Hacker News Reader

Fresno School Tracks Students' Bathroom Breaks with Countdown App

thedailybeast.com

24 pointsaio223 comments

> Students get only two bathroom breaks a day for seven minutes each during classtime, and in order to request “bathroom privileges,” they must key in their student ID numbers to the app. It only green-lights them if there are fewer than 25 students taking restroom breaks, and when they return to class, they must key in again or risk losing the right to relieve themselves.

"Losing the right to relieve themselves." Keep saying it until it makes sense to you. I keep trying... More evidence for the "School Or Prison" meme[1].

1: https://maristane.com/school-or-prison/

School administrators have an obsession with controlling (and spying on) students that borders on sadism. I'm convinced they get off - either nonsexually or sexually - on controlling hundreds of kids. It's a god complex.

I used to spend time on a subreddit dedicated to edu IT administration, hoping to learn more about MDM and such. Instead, what I learned is that administrators are extremely fixated on spying on and limiting student online activity. That subreddit is now private, because people kept confronting them about it.

If you have a kid: have a sit-down talk with them and tell them they can come to you with anything, no matter what - but to never mention anything illegal or mental-health related on any school-related accounts, devices owned by the school, or devices they've been forced to install an app on or install an MDM profile, etc.

Schools are particularly paranoid about self-harm and a huge list of keywords and phrases will earn your kid an immediate trip to the administrator's office where they will be grilled. Where they'll learn that what they thought was private was actually being monitored, closely.

Because of course, that's exactly what you should do to someone who might be suicidal or otherwise having mental health issues. Humiliate them by revealing that what they had intended to be private is now known to half a dozen or more people they don't know or trust, etc. Yeah. /s

It's all about ass-covering to protect their careers, not student health or safety.

I expect parents can review the teacher and administration bathroom log? In the interest of ensuring the best possible education, like this measure, of course.

This is prison, not school. If you can’t teach kids to be responsible in school, you’re failing as a school, and becoming a prison is not the answer.

https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article286882795.html

And this is where if I was a parent I would be ripping the stupid school up for such an asinine rule. As I told my mother when I was in highschool, the only thing they care about is preparing us for life in a factory.

The only places I had timed or limited bathroom breaks were the shittiest possible jobs you could have.

Counterpoint: As a teacher (public middle school in the US), I can tell you that today's students routinely ask to use the bathroom when they don't need to. They go there to use their phones, meet up with friends, or just to avoid doing work.

Without some sort of structure in place (the simplest of which is "no bathroom breaks in my class, period"), a significant portion of class time is taken up by students asking to leave or asking to be let back in (the doors are required to be locked at all times in case a wild shooter appears).

So something that lets kids go a couple of times a day during classes but prevents "abuse" might relieve some of the time and cognitive overhead of dealing with bathroom breaks for teachers.

This has never been a serious problem. Why is it suddenly a problem now? And before you answer, the attitudes and dispositions of the students are a symptom, not a cause.

It was the same 10+ years ago. Doors weren't locked though.

I also don't think an app is needed to tell a recurring problem student "no".

I'm not saying I think it's a good idea on balance (the onerous big brother software). I just thought I'd point out that there might be potential hidden upsides in addition to the obvious downsides.

I was a rule-following middle schooler who happened to get her first period in 6th grade. There were multiple times I had to walk around with period-stained jeans and a sweatshirt tied around my waist because I was still figuring out my cycle and certain teachers would only let you go to the bathroom in their classes once a week. Turns out my menstrual cycle doesn’t follow a bell schedule.

I urge you to reconsider your policy. You’re punishing everyone because you can’t control your classroom.

If I could create my own policy in a vacuum, it would be something like "Excuse yourself quietly, get back as soon as possible so you don't miss too much, and if I have a question I'll ask you about it later."

But I can't. In order to let a student leave my classroom, I am required to personally create a pass in the system, which means I have to stop teaching and bring whatever is happening to a screeching halt. I don't mean to imply that class is always more important than physical needs. I know that it isn't. But because bathroom breaks have been turned by policy into major interruptions, it really intensifies the issue.

For me, it's not about controlling kids. It's about trying to maintain some semblance of order/quiet/concentration so that learning can happen. (Yes, I know that the pass policy as a whole is mostly about controlling kids.)

I've only been teaching for 2 years after decades in private industry. Stuff like this is my least favorite part of the job. I have no idea how to solve it, but FYI I have never said no to a student who asked me quietly or pulled me aside.

P.S. (I think that as a fellow former rule-following middle schooler, you would be blown away by how few of us there are left, by how little intrinsic motivation, curiosity, and desire to please others the median middle schooler currently seems to have, and by how badly it messes up the whole idea of productive/fun learning environments. I came into this in 2022 as a resolute idealist and have quickly been ground down into something less than that, although I still think it's maybe the most worthwhile way someone who has retired young can spend their time.)

> as a fellow former rule-following middle schooler, you would be blown away by how few of us there are left

If someone is surrounded by ubiquitous control systems designed to regiment their behavior, it can hardly be a surprise when they have difficulty with self-discipline.

Using technical methods to motivate someone's behavior denies them the opportunity to develop intrinsic motivation.

Then punish them instead of punishing everyone, communal bad rules so you can manage something isn't a good enough reason.

if you know anything about fresno it’s likely because they’re doing illegal behaviors there

Which makes it worse, because the one thing that this doesn’t do is anything that focuses on the actual behaviors being done.

Agreed. We don’t know all the information but it seems like a misaligned solution for a real problem.

The real problem is that they're stuck living in Fresno. There's nothing the school can do to solve that.

I’ve spent a lot of time in CA’s central valley. It’s unfortunate but there may be certain use cases where tracking a student’s out of class time could be relevant.

It would be better as an opt-in thing for students that need “guard rails” rather than universal.

Have been volunteering as a Big for the past few years and Little had problems with wandering the halls for long durations while on a bathroom break. In this case it wasn’t malicious far as I know but a way to quantify time spent seems justified.

Edit: every individual should have bathroom access whenever they need it of course.

So, does the school give an explanation for this restrictive rule?

So what about Edina, MN? They're doing the same tracking there, and it's not Fresno.

Some day scientists are going to figure out why kids that commit crimes cease to urinate and excrete, but for now it's just a super lucky coincidence.

Meanwhile the gangs have an app which limits how much time their lil homies spend in class to make sure they get back to slangin dope

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