Greece, Argentina and India are the fastest improving business environments | Hacker News Reader

Greece, Argentina and India are the fastest improving business environments

eiu.com

64 pointsAlgoRitmo97 comments

I am surprised to see Germany so high. Germany is a hostile place to start a company, especially if you are not German, not least because there is the issue of a very harsh and inflexible exit tax. Should you decide to leave Germany, even temporarily, you will be faced with a tax of around 30% of the current valuation of your worldwide holdings in companies. The rules for this became even harsher in 2021. I have obviously simplified everything for the sake of clarity but currently lawyers in Germany are advising people there to leave Germany before starting a company.

Most of the information on this is in German but people should be aware of this before considering Germany as a place to start a company. You can read more here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wegzugsbesteuerung or here (English): https://www.winheller.com/en/tax-law-tax-advisory/internatio...

What's the reason for this?

It’s an alternative approach to what the USA achieves with their worldwide taxation.

US global taxation applies only to income, though.

This is a wealth tax.

It was initially introduced by the Nazis and mainly used to seize assets from jews before they were rounded up for the holocaust. So today, smart entrepreneurs do what smart jews did in the 1930s - leave Germany (and the EU), before it's too late. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich_Flight_Tax

That link says that law was introduced by the Weimar Republic, who was debasing the Reichsmark and thus had a need to prevent capital flight, not the Nazis.

The Nazis seemed like they ramped it up rather than introducing it.

The law was also repealed in 1953.

I am in the process of trying to understand how businesses work and I have been comparing the realities of starting and running companies in various european countries. Most of the information that I can find is very surface level so thanks for sharing anything that people should be aware of.

A community/forum/subreddit focused on this does not seem to exist. I guess professionals are too busy.

I was also surprised to not see much discourse over Section 174 recently.

But getting back to the point, europe needs to decide if it wants to be relevant or not in the future. As an italian currently living in my country, I can say that doing business here looks like insanity, it's not hyperbole, the environment is as anti-business and innovation as it can be.

HN used to have that but most YC founders migrated to Bookface where there is better moderation and less off topic or toxic conversations (just take a look at this entire comment section)

Also Section 174, while annoying, isn't the end of the world for most founders, and there is bipartisan support for a repeal of it.

> understand how businesses work

You can only learn by doing. Start your own company or land a BizOps related role, but honestly, it's probably easier to make the classic Italy-to-London move

I wonder why the EU hasn't clamped down on it? Surely it is incompatible with the Internal Market (unless by "leaving Germany" you meant "leaving the EU").

It's essentially an advance payment of capital gains tax before you have realized those gains (fictionally treating it as a sale from yourself in Germany to yourself abroad). If you just sold off the company outright, you'd have to pay the same tax, but then you'd also definitely have the money to do so.

Because nobody has sued the German tax office and taken it up to the EU courts yet. From my understanding and anecdotes from my tax advisor, most of these cases get settled by the tax office before going to court to avoid creating a precedent.

The tax office just lost a case at the highest German court against an entrepreneur who moved to Switzerland, which will force them to accept an unlimited interest-free deferral in most cases. See https://winheller.com/blog/keine-sofortige-wegzugsbesteuerun... (in German)

Unfortunately, so far that deferral will most likely come with the requirement for a security, typically cash. That is the prevailing view of tax specialists right now, but will depend on each individual's experience with their local tax authorities.

It's probably generally a bad idea to start a company in a country you intend to leave permanently. What's the point of having a company in Germany if you're not in Germany yourself?

Most companies in Germany are probably started by people who intend to stay, or are subsidiaries of international conglomerates, or have not gained enough in value to cause a significant tax burden, so the edge cases affected by the exit tax are unlikely to move the needle on business-friendliness indices like this one. (Especially in comparison to other countries with similar laws.)

> bad idea to start a company in a country you intend to leave permanently

Agree if the intention is there from the beginning. Disagree that the inflexibility doesn’t have a cost. Even if you fully intend to stay in Germany, are you 100% sure that’s the best decision for your business? If the answer is no, the law incentivises moving preemptively.

I wasn't trying to say that there is no cost, I was pointing out that the cost is not large enough to affect the ranking on this index. With an index composed of many different factors, you can always focus on one aspect that is particularly positive or negative, but that doesn't mean the overall ranking is wrong just because it also takes other factors into account.

The EIU gives Germany an overall score of 8.35. How much higher should it be if the exit tax were abolished? How much higher if it's not abolished, but deferred until the capital gains are realized?

It raises the possibility that it perhaps isn't a useful index.

You might have a sick relative and want to temporarily spend some time with them. Or you might need to relocate to lead expansion to another market. Or move to the sun after retirement but still keep ownership of some shares to pass on to your children. There are a range of unplanned scenarios that can lead to that. For many, it is not worth the risk.

If you leave for less than 7 years (less than 12 if you file for permission), you're not covered by the exit tax. That should cover anything truly temporary at least.

Germany is hostile to everyone who wants to start a business. You have to check with different agencies/offices and just work it through. A lot of time consuming. Finanzamt, Rentenversicherung, Krankenkasse, Berufsgenossenschaft, Gewerbeamt, everyone has its own rules.

For the super rich its a good place.

I'm half Greek, so obviously a little bias. But would love to see a more thriving tech scene in Athens. It's a cool city, with great night-life, great restaurants, and stunning places nearby, not yet super gentrified and obviously also has some archaeological sites. But it's not just 2000 years old history (yes, it's partly also pretty run-down, bureaucracy is a night-mare, etc.)

Generally speaking, it's usually sunny all year around, winters are mild, summers are hot, but one can spend those on an Aegean island..

Speaking of bias, I would rather see that as well in Thessaloniki.

And better remote working conditions could be a way to diversify the islands economy beyond Summers.

There is always the strategy of finding non-Greek companies to work remotely for, who will have a better work culture and remote ethic.

For the economic argument, you'd still be bringing money into the country and stimulating the economy (and paying taxes), so it's not all doom and gloom that you aren't working for a Greek company to make Greece better.

except there is absolutely zero anything on permanent establishment rules. The Greek tax authorities could write one memo saying “hiring a director in Greece does not trigger permanent establishment” and that digital nomad visa program would really pop off.

alas…nothing

I don't condone nonlegal actions, but do they really check your source of income? Usually with such sorts of tax authorities I'd imagine they'd only pay attention if they notice large incomes or many people citing the same contracting source.

IANAFA and not clued up on Greek tax myself.

the digital nomad visa requires you to have a contract with a company outside greece. while you can establish your own local entity, that’s a different visa process. if you have your own domiciled outside GR and even spring for a “nominee director” you still trigger permanent establishment (the tax people aren’t the same as immigration people) and it’s still a very real risk.

now be a senior level IC having an opportunity at a global company that doesn’t have a GR office? yeah, the first year legal rep is gonna do a hard no.

and all the tax people need to do is stamp a memo…

Bias, because you live in Athens and don't want more gentrification? Or because you live in Thessaloniki and want more business there?

I personally find Athens to be a much more appealing city, speaking as a tech worker, rock climber, and (near) vegan, who has spent a fair bit of time in both.

Thessaloniki has its pros, but loses to Athens in pretty much everything I care about, other than having a nice bike/scooter-friendly boardwalk

Thessaloniki because of family reasons, hence my bias is to Thessaloniki and Halkidiki region, I would rather only visit Athens for the airport and harbour connections, or some official business. :)

If Velti didn't collapse due to shady behavior there probably could have been one.

Are you following the current tech scene at all?

There are some meetups and groups here and there to my knowledge, just not always well known unless you go out of your way to find them.

You mean you are “biased” or you have a “bias”

I'm based! and have a bias!

All your bases are belong to us! (yes I'm that old)

Are Aegean islands cooler than Athens in summer?

More wind and less urban heat island effect would keep the temperatures more reasonable, I think.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

yea, they're usually windier and therefore are (and feel) a few degrees cooler. Fortunately they aren't particularly humid either (usually) which makes them feel quite pleasant imo

You can take a cool dive in the sea in them. In Athens not so much. And in Athens you have the combined extra heat of all the concrete, cars, and air-conditioning units output to bear.

That said, it's still nothing like Phoenix or New Orleans. More like San Diego heat.

Do you have thoughts on Patras as a less crowded alternative for English-speaking nomads and setting up a remote office?

I guess the weather is also sunny and beachy ?

I've been to Patras a few times (usually while hopping over from Italy).. I'd say, the Peloponnese is amazing. If I could just work remotely from a quiet place I would probably try and find a seaside village or so on it.

But Patras, as far as I remember it's pretty industrial, it has a large-ish port, 2 nice-ish squares, but otherwise didn't really strike me as a particularly exciting/pretty place.. Weather will be good though.

If you wanna try out something different, maybe a smaller city with a more remote vibe but with quite a bit of life nevertheless and good weather - maybe give Syros a try :) It has a beautiful old venetian town, cool restaurants/bars - some nice beaches and great nature - and all the other aegean islands with varying vibes around it! But it's also not as village-y or seasonal as the other islands - definitely can recommend!

A thriving tech scene overnight is going to gentrify it to the point of only tech folks wanting to live there.

I lost any trust in that ranking after I saw Germany on place 4... Bureaucracy is extreme and some things that you could do in hours in other countries may take months or even years in Germany. Average tax rate is also second-highest among all OECD countries. Energy prices are extremely high (3x higher than in the US) and labour costs are high. There are also many other problems with Germany if you want to do business there.

Labour costs are high is a bad thing? I see it as social cohesion, where people get paid less unfairly.

The discussion here seems to focus on the owning/founding class sides perspective. This side, understandably, does not like high salaries and workers rights.

Not sure if you are serious with your comment but I'll bite - when you start a company, after going through all the hell of starting it and making it profitable (which is often multiyear draining effort which destroys families and health easily, risk of losing literally everything is very real), you want to give all those money to other people, who put just their expected 40h effort with maximum salary security, 5-6 weeks of paid holidays etc.

This mindset is pervasive in Europe, and reason we are so much behind compared where we could be. Which can be fine, focus more on social aspect if thats your priority, but then good old greed kicks in and everybody wants those sweet money and benefits they bring, without necessary risks and downsides.

World doesn't work that way and never will, its simple math at the core.

> when you start a company, after going through all the hell of starting it and making it profitable (which is often multiyear draining effort which destroys families and health easily, risk of losing literally everything is very real), you want to give all those money to other people, who put just their expected 40h effort with maximum salary security, 5-6 weeks of paid holidays etc.

"I took on some risks to build up my personal wealth, now I am entitled to be as exploitative as I can be. They only work what their contract dictates, fuck them".

This is precisely why regulations and labor protections are important. People like you are the living proof that if allowed, workers would be bled dry.

There should be a balance between workers bleeding dry in capitalism, and workers don't have (good) jobs because it's too much hassle with "regulations and labor protections", and is not worth the outcome.

Really, if in a (over)socialist country I have an idea to build my personal wealth, why would I give jobs to all these protected guys, if I can leave them jobless, and get €€€ using minimal team I can assemble. Ideally - being solopreneur at all.

> There should be a balance between workers bleeding dry in capitalism, and workers don't have (good) jobs because it's too much hassle with "regulations and labor protections", and is not worth the outcome.

I happen to know quite a few people from Germany. All things considered, there are good jobs and they have decent living standards.

> Really, if in a (over)socialist country

Germany? (Over)socialist? Are you high?

> I have an idea to build my personal wealth, why would I give jobs to all these protected guys, if I can leave them jobless, and get €€€ using minimal team I can assemble. Ideally - being solopreneur at all.

By all means, do it. What are you waiting for?

Fact is there is money to be made by employing these "protected guys", they are certainly not jobless.

> Germany? (Over)socialist? Are you high?

(from what I researched) To the extent that Germany wouldn't allow me to invoice foreign company as a freelancer, because it's considered false employment. The state is so nanny that wants to impose their labor protection and social security on people who visibly don't want it. In other countries, I observe there is a kind of "social contract" (at least for programmers) to allow people work through business entities, pay less taxes and get less protection, if they're competent enough to make this kinds of contracts.

> Fact is there is money to be made by employing these "protected guys", they are certainly not jobless.

They are. Portugal and Spain impose a lot of socialist regulations backed by high taxes, yet they complain about brain drain (pt) and unemployment (es). People don't want to come and open businesses to these very attractive places for relocation. Instead, cold small Estonia gets their startup boom, surprise-surprise.

> They are. Portugal and Spain

Shifting goalposts much?

Somalia probably has no worker protections (it barely has a government), and it's not a thriving job environment.

If we are to just name countries without any criteria, two can play this game.

By your measurement, nordic countries, the Netherlands and so on should be depressing nightmares with hordes of unemployable people, given their strong labor protections. And surprise, they are not.

Last I heard a worker could leave his employer at any time for a another job elsewhere, taking any skills and know-how with them. Who is bleeding who?

It has always been the case that to best protect the worker you need to create a thriving economy with alternative employment for workers to arb their employers, not regulations or unions.

> Last I heard a worker could leave his employer at any time for a another job elsewhere, taking any skills and know-how with them. Who is bleeding who?

Of course, we never heard of employers colluding to suppress wages, no sir.

> It has always been the case that to best protect the worker you need to create a thriving economy with alternative employment for workers to arb their employers, not regulations or unions.

This is the bullshit of the ages. Jobs exist in countries where worker protections are high, believe it or not. It's the reason why I migrated to Europe for that matter.

Please stop with these primitive personal attacks, they have no place in this forum and I am sure you can do better than that.

You my friend need some life experience. Plenty of 20-something with same opinion in Europe, much less 30+.

> Please stop with these primitive personal

I made no personal attacks, I merely exposed the bullshit of the original reply by reducing it to it's more basic premises.

> You my friend need some life experience.

Having a career for more than 2 decades (including FAANG on my resume), in 3 different countries, is not enough of a life experience?

I also have a child, bought a house with the fruits of my labor, always paid my taxes, etc. What more experience do I need?

Oh wait, I get it. You are making a personal attack. Since you have no defence against my arguments, your only recourse is an Ad Hominem by implying I am too young and have no life experience. The last resort of those without any arguments.

You are entitled to your view but I think it is a little unempathetic to be unable or unwilling to put yourself in the shoes of entrepreneurs when the topic is how attractive a place is for them. Of course, all things being equal, a business wants to pay as little for labor as possible.

Speaking as a German, wrt pay I think this topic is not quite so simple. Germany doesn't have particularly high wages and one of the reasons for that is that labor costs are so high. How can that be? Simple: all labor protection that we have is, at end, simply a cost. Yes, we have payed sick leave. Very civilized. But German employees call out sick, on average, 11 days a years. That's almost two weeks pay for no labor. In a global, competitive labor market that cost isn't coming out of the profits of the company. It's coming out of our wages. And so it is with all the other "goodies" that we get.

Btw, our cohesion isn't really what it used to be either.

> You are entitled to your view but I think it is a little unempathetic to be unable or unwilling to put yourself in the shoes of entrepreneurs when the topic is how attractive a place is for them. Of course, all things being equal, a business wants to pay as little for labor as possible.

"Can someone think of the poor entrepreneurs? They just want to exploit workers freely, but the mean government keeps getting in the way. Why would they create rules that protect the people? This is so unfair"

Yeah, thanks for this run of the mill communist bullshit that doesn't have anything to do with what I said. "Oh yeah, pay for work is EXPLOITATION guys, guys, guys, the only ETHICAL way is for daddy government to force people to work at gun point".

Can you point on a doll where the mean government touched you?

around here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Maybe there are things in Germany where the country excels other countries. Energy price is not the only indicator!

Considering that Germany is losing business left and right, companies moving to other countries, rates of reemigration falling down, I’d say there’s not much positive development in Germany right now. Totally unappealing to start a new business and the bureaucracy is crazy.

Considering there are still major investments into Germany, there is still much positive development. I guess some people are just blind.

Gravis Store shutting down all locations in Germany, Bosch to lay off thousands by 2025. This is just from last week. Some people are blind, indeed.

Tell me more about those new investments pouring into Germany. Maybe we are consuming different news.

I'm a Greek and this article saddens me.

Greece is run by a populist government, one of the two parties that had be running Greece to it's demise. Kyriakos Mitsotakis is the first Greek politician in my opinion to understand modern media and how to manipulate them, appearing as the sensible choice to people who don't put any effort into researching politics.

All that while we've had the government donating millions to friendly media,

the Greek version of Watergate, with the goverment spying on politicians, journalists and others

and two trains colliding because of state incompetence with many students dying.

All that have not been investigated properly.

Finally the average greek person has not been feeling any "fastest improving business environments" one of the reasons being that the sectors that thrive are not beneficial to the country.

After all, Argentina has sold a lot of state-owned enterprises this year. Having so much one-time income will definitely make the economy look better. As for the future, who cares?

https://www.worldoil.com/news/2024/2/8/argentina-plans-sweep...

They can just nationalize it in the next election cycle.

> After all, Argentina has sold a lot of state-owned enterprises this year

Which ones? AFAIK government has stated intent to sell around 40 state-owned companies (expressed in a massive bill that got rejected by congress), but I don't know that any have been sold yet.

Also YPF (state-owned oil company), the company your linked article is talking about, was removed from the list of companies to be sold even before the new legislation got rejected [1] (your article mentions this fact too). But also it seems your linked article is mainly talking about YPF selling assets, not the company being sold.

1: https://www.eleconomista.com.mx/empresas/Ley-omnibus-Milei-s...

Great to see Greece improving, meanwhile Italy is speedrunning its demise.

It's all relative.

I speak to my Greek friends and family, mostly outside of tech, and the sentiment isn't yet as positive as the macro numbers in articles like this indicate.

As a diaspora Greek, it's positive news, but it seems this all hasn't "trickled down" to citizens' day to day lives as much. It does give some hope for those who left for economic reasons, and there are even groups out there to encourage a return to restore the brain drain of the 2010s.

That being said the elder population would probably be grumpy no matter how much things improved.

One of the things with Greeks (in Greece) really is that they're notoriously pessimistic and depressed, unlike what people usually associate with the country. I do think though that there's a bit of a new spirit though among the younger generation which is slightly less focused on 2k year old history and a bit more realistic in the way they approach the world. But maybe that's just wishful thinking on my end

I don't think it's wishful thinking. I think newer generations in times like these will tend to rebel against the attitude of their parents in any direction that takes them. With grumpy old Greeks, that means the younger generation are calmer and maybe more positive too. Life's too short to be miserable.

I find the ancient and Byzantine history fascinating myself. Naturally the liberation struggles are also important, but the very religious and closer-to-present history and culture don't interest me as much. I also always found it quite hypocritical of the older generation that they biased towards the more recent history and the Orthodox religious aspects, but then they'd sell you trinkets of the ancient world while quietly ignoring the pagan nature of it.

IMO, one of the last big issues with Greek culturally and in terms of economic opportunity for young adults, is mandatory conscription. I won't be returning for anything more than a holiday unless I get a permanent exemption. Many Greeks tend to ignore the opportunity cost this impacts young men with. It's not just "a forced gap year" since you have to do it regardless of if you study or not.

By having emigrated before the peak of the crises around 2015, I avoided both wasting a year on conscription and finished my studies sooner. Anecdotally I'm pretty sure taking that leap was the best thing I could've done, considering what I know of my pees right now (highly educated, but overworked and underpaid).

I think that's spot on - what annoys me with some older Greeks is a fairly consistent 'look at our amazing history' attitude, as if they're ancestors of Gods. But then the actual culture is deeply rooted in Greek orthodoxy, driven by entirely different values, mostly pretty conservative. In reality, many older Greeks know relatively little about their own ancient history, or they focus on very specific aspects of it. Even though it's actually so colorful and full of human conflict and complexities.

I believe it's important for the country to look beyond that history. Not saying one shouldn't be inspired by it, almost everyone in the West is somewhat inspired by it anyway. This is a piece of humanity that played out on the same geographical area as modern-day Greece with a somewhat similar language, but it's long gone.

And I totally agree regarding conscription - if it were some sort of useful exercise for 6 months or so, one could probably make sense of it, but as it stands currently, it's a total waste of time.

I've been keeping an eye on Greece as they started to introduce benefits for foreign capital / workers similar to what Portugal did. I've a feeling this is why Greece is seen to be doing so well. If it ends up being like Portugal, it will be foreign investors and a select few locals that benefit the most.

From the one or two accounts I follow that talk about these macro trends, the benefits for capital at least are helping, not sure about individual incentives. As Greece's tech hubs grow, they also start to paint a different picture of work and work culture in Greece.

> It's all relative.

Exactly. Like, what was the outlook ten years ago? Possible exit from EU and euro, state bankruptcy, economic and political collapse. The stability and slow economic improvement might be a bad result for many countries, but for Greece it's IMHO a good result (for me, better than expected).

Indeed.

If you're still on X, or subscribe to newsletters, I can recommend The Greek Analyst[0]. He follows a lot of macro trends for Greece and makes an active effort to be a positive voice in the sea of Greek pessimism, including results like these "great result in relative context" pieces.

[0] https://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst

I remember being very negative about the Greek's long term outlook ~10 years ago. I mean, it was obvious that there will be an economic downturn for many years in basically all scenarios, but I was very worried about the political uproar, turn to populism and authoritarianism (which would further worsen the economic woes).

IIRC there was an election in ~2015 which Syriza won, back then pretty radical in its anti-austerity campaign. But after they won, they made a turnaround and more or less went along with the austerity.

The problem of Greece is that due to decades of nepotism and corruption, there is no real political hope. The ruling party is one of the two that has brought Greece to where it is now, and the prime minister comes from a family with a long tradition in politics and power thirst.

His best man is the biggest gangster in Greece, Marinakis. They found a ship of his containing 2 TONS! of heroin, and nothing happened.

Because the Mitsotakis family controls the court system in Greece.

https://newrepublic.com/article/159252/noor-one-vampire-ship...

Not to make an excuse, but tell me a country that isn't like that. For all the pomp and circumstance that democracy provides, it all feels like it boils down to tribalism where oligarchs rule and control the tides. Sure we all control our individual boats but the tide is what controls the sea.

There are many countries not run by an oligarchy.

Sure every nation has an elite, but it’s a stretch to say that Germany, Sweden, Denmark, USA, and many other countries have an oligarchic system similar to how it is in Russia, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan.

Argentina?

Last year the currency lost 75% of its value, this year it's only down 10% so far (in Q1), so perhaps that counts as improvement.

Some neoconservative politician roleplaying as an anarchist reached the country's top office. He's privatising everything on a speedrun, weakening all labour regulations, waging an economic war against China, the country's top economic partner, and promised he would forfeit the country's currency to the Americans by switching to dollars. So ig for foreign investors its now or never to plunder what's left of Argentina.

He was democratically elected with this agenda. Maybe the people there were tired of the same old crony socialist disaster and rampant inflation plus accelerated loss of quality of live.

I don't know, maybe what a country with great demographics and decent territory needs in this situation is a healthy dose of western/american capitalism.

I would also much rather be allied to US agendas than to Chinese agendas ANY DAY.

trump and modi were democratically elected too, so by itself that's no real measure of fitness for office.

Aaaand the moment for the Godwin's law to kick in has arrived! And it's not even wrong in this context, I'd say.

Of course westerner-lovers prefer an alliance with US over China; they profit from it. It's easier to empty the pockets of Argentinians when they think of you as a trustworthy friend.

Also regarding the healthy imposed dose of american capitalism: its funny how liberals/right wingers in the western world love to praise national sovereignty, but as soon as it is people outside of the western bubble who dream of national sovereignty, then suddenly its very bad and those dirty people should simply serve their European or American overlords without asking questions.

Is there a way to invest in this plundering, for retail investors?

iShares Argentinia plundering ETF?

In my informal polls, people we work with (users, resellers...) that are based in Argentina seem to be mildly optimistic.

Good fundamentals and a low base.

There is no real (non politics) reason Argentina can not return to being one of the wealthiest countries in the world (obviously they won't anytime soon)

"most improved awards" are exclusively for special needs kids

highly regarded, or not. depending on how you read that.

India so fast improving in business environment that 40% of those graduates under 25 are unemployed.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/education/state-of-working-india-gr...

Gotta love how ruling party fanatics have already downvoted this innocuous and factual comment.

India still needs to reign in its human rights abuses a LOT before being taken seriously. I certainly can't invest there in good concience.

This is a business ranking, human rights don't factor into the equation. If anything it's easier to make money without pesky annoyances like labor rights or OSHA inspections in the way.

Looks more like a ranking of "what neoliberals reforms have been made to make the place a hellscape for workers" than actual "improving business environments" if the latter means more jobs, an actually improved economy, less desperation, and so on.

Desperation = low wages = more profit!

You can have desperation and low wages without profit or any business boom - case in point Agerntina and Greece.

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