FBI sent several informants to Standing Rock protests, court documents show
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The only people here with guns are the police.
They just had to use water cannons and flashbangs on unarmed elderly people who just didn't want their land and water dug up and ruined with oil spills.
That's a very one-sided description of what's happening. So far as I can tell, they were blasted by water canons because they set up an illegal encampment in the way of an oil pipeline that was under construction.
We have a lot of such actions in here. The only time bad thing happened in the last 15 years was using a water cannon on a very big group demonstrating against the "new" (its old when its finished) train station.
I think, when someone is demonstrating, other should hear what is the reason for, not shoot water on them. No matter it's a camp, glued onto or big demonstrations - there is a reason for this.
1. if you read my previous comment more carefully, my objection isn't against the fact that they're demonstrating at all, it's that the account you gave was very one-sided. It's possible to be for "Demonstration is a human right" but still acknowledge what exact activities they're engaging in and not rounding it off to just "demonstrating". Failing to do so is disingenuous and kills your credibility, ultimately hurting the cause you're trying to advocate for.
2. "Demonstration" might be a "human right", but it has limits. As (presumably) a German, you should know this given how many restrictions you have on free speech[1], another "human right". There's presumably complicated statutory and case law that determines exactly what constitutes as protected "demonstration", but I doubt that "unilaterally blocking a construction project that's already approved, by setting up an encampment" counts.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#G...
The people are demonstrating here before approval, after approval and even while the construction. It's all possible and is covered by our law.
Actually:
Tesla wants to extend its plant. The people living around that plant decided "no!" (Which I personally do not understand). There is a forest of monoculture trees beside that - the demonstrators have built tree houses and living now in it. They want to fight (and often did that already..). Extension of the plant is approved too..
The digging up of brown coal - the same. Here, it took like felt 5 years to remove all the demonstrators..
The pipelines, the power lines , the renewal wind energy generators - the people are demonstrating against all all the time. And it's approved too.. sometimes the projects are changed because of that, sometimes the police must regulate...
But in the end, shot by water cannon is only possible if there is violance going of the demonstrators. If there's a possible solution for a change in project, then often the change is done. As I said. Demonstration is a human right and is also being written under the basic rights :)
If you think, just because something got approved and because of this there shouldn't be any demonstrations or blocking anymore - I'll wait for the day a highway is built behind your house and then I remind you of your comment :)
Peace.
Are you saying that demonstrations should always be allowed as long as there's no "violence", even if it's interfering with other people's activities (eg. in the middle of a construction site)?. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works anywhere, because that basically allows anyone to veto any sort of activity by "protesting". That said I'm not an expert on American or German law so feel free to prove me wrong. :)
>If you think, just because something got approved and because of this there shouldn't be any demonstrations or blocking anymore - I'll wait for the day a highway is built behind your house and then I remind you of your comment :)
If you think, just because people have the right to protest and because of this you can't do anything about "protesters" - I'll wait for the day protesters decide to "protest" inside your house and then I remind you of your comment :)
https://www.dw.com/en/freedom-of-assembly-in-germany-protect...
Privately owned houses, flats or other privately owned properties can't be entered without permission. The demonstrators can start a demonstration in my garden, yes, but the police will help here. And, no one would even think of doing so, because everyone knows thats illegal. This is different with companies. You can't enter, but you can block their parking space or demonstrate in front the maintenance. They can call the police, but they're can't do anything about that - public ground.
Just remember the "occupy" movement that camped in front of banks in Frankfurt, Germany, and made it nearly impossible for the guys working there to enter their workplace.
This restrictions of private property applies Without exception for every one, and for the police or other state organs like intelligence or ambulances. If, then, only a search warrant issued by a judge, who is bound to certain laws or on your invitation can enable them to enter without your ok.. and even that can be stopped by a lawyer. If it was unlawful, then everything they found must be given back or deleted. That's the way love goes - love for the rights of a single person. Nothing is more important so it is written in the basic law.
So yes. I'll wait until the day you'll have a highway in your backyard :) and then I ask you, why didn't you demonstrate?
In the case of the pipeline protests though, they're not just protesting on the entrance on public roads, they're protesting in the construction site itself. Therefore everything you say doesn't seem to help the pipeline protesters.
>So yes. I'll wait until the day you'll have a highway in your backyard :) and then I ask you, why didn't you demonstrate?
Note I'm not against protesting per se. I'd consider and might very well protest at city hall by holding up signs or whatever. Should I fail to convince the public and/or the legislature to join my side, and couldn't get an ruling in my favor through the courts, I will accept my fate. I'm not going to throw a tamper tantrum by setting up an encampment in the middle of the highway construction path just because I didn't get what I want.
(One example: when there was corona, a lot of people refused to wear a mask. It's their freedom to do so. But they may get in conflict with other ones basic law to stay healthy and not being made ill. So the one who's infected can sue the one who's choosing not to wear a mask.. that hasn't been understood by the non-maskers)
This basic laws have and can be exercised by everyone in Germany. No matter of you're a private business, a state owned public company (which both aren't natural persons), you have to stand behind.. even if that means your building site is blocked. You can call your lawyer and sue the ones. But the judge will assess your needings against the exercise of basic law of individuals demonstrating and if it is legit, you'll lose the trial.. if not, then you can ask for compensation..
that's the way it should be everywhere. Water cannons used to secure a business is a sign of a repressional state form where the rights of an individual are less worth than the money.
Think again about it, whether it should or shouldn't be like that :)
Doing security checks on men that look arab on the streets. Banning the palestinian flag.
If it's not, then it may be forbidden to even start. But Each one is free to call up a court after a 'not allowed'. Often, the decision to forbid is Undone by law ruling.
Each demonstration must be registered with guys who is responsible, with a plan how to sustain the public peace and everything around that. Of course, spontaneous demonstrations are possible too. If you're more than one, you can just sit on the street and say "demonstration". You also can gather in some point - but it must be spontaneous. If it's planned, then there are rules to adhere to.
The ones which has been forbidden have been organized by Islamic organizations which are under observation by themselves - not because they're arabic, but because they are against the german laws and postulate sharia and the things like depression of woman and so on.. Germany is a free state of a lot of people from different cultures. No sharia, no hate against woman, no nothing, but peaceful living alongside each other.
Pro Palestine demos here had a special taste. The guys who decide if ok or not ok look for the dangerousness:
The pro Palestine demonstrators (mostly Arabic) called death to all Jews. They raised ISIS flags, had been aggressive to bypassers and the police. Some guys participating beaten up german Jews, the kids if such believes are getting more violent in the school to other kids, like it's haram for girls to speak to boys and if you're Jewish - one have fear beaten up to death. The synagogues in here has been attacked that much they needed help by the police.
I'm not an Jew or Arabic, but I, too, say: NO! That's not a demonstration covered by the rules. That's pure hate and violence. There's no place in Germany for that.
We're not in Palestina or other states where such is possible. We're a country where everyone try to come along and to live peacefully with each other. So, if you like to demonstrate pro Palestina - be peaceful. Than it's not a problem. Like the other not forbidden pro Palestina demonstrations show :)
It’s happening out in the open. Orientalism is still alive and thriving.
Calling for israel to stop its genocide is considered hate speech in germany. Even calling israel an apartheid state is.
I say No to the constant arming of israel that has killed +10K children. The people protesting dont care about whether israel is jewish or not fyi.
The guilt stems from Germany’s atrocities in ww2 and it seems you’re projecting your own insecurities/guilt onto arabs.
Its sadly ironic cause germany is a big reason we’re in this mess :)
I'm with you that killings of Israel is not ok (if it can be said like not ok - I don't know an English word that is even more not ok then not ok.) Also what Israel is doing in Gaza all the time, the illegal settlement and the nazi-settlers that are now even sanctioned by the EU like the nazi-russians.. is not ok, too. That is all out of question.
But the Problem is the Hamas. That's the problem. And the Hisbollah. Actually. The arabic thinking "Israel is bad and needs to be extinguished from the Earth's surface" is the ONLY problem and is very bad.
If you think outside the box about it, it's the same what's happening in Ukraine and Russia:
With Ukraine being like "Russia is bad. We want Nato. We want Europe." - that gived Putin a tool in his hand to pull the Russians people onto his side and start a war which is supported by the majority of Russians (I'm born Russian and it's utterly stupid what's happening there!!!)
The same happens in Israel. The Hamas and Arabic thinking give the Israeli hardliners a tool and the people of Israel support this..
So, if you want a change there, stop being like that. Stop cherish the killers and non humans of the Hamas. Stop chants of death to Israel. Slowly the Israeli hardliners will lose support. As one might not imagine, but in Israel there are also demonstrations against Israels doings.. so, you need the Israeli people to stop this.
And exactly this kind off "I say No to the constant arming of israel that has killed +10K children. The people protesting dont care about whether israel is jewish or not fyi" demonstrations are happening in Germany. The one's forbidden are rightly forbidden for the named reasons.
Here the Arabic ones are searched on the street. That's true. But the Arabic looking ones (beard, national clothes, woman in behind can't see anything because of the trad. clothing) are the ones who did suicide attacks and killed to much of German people. If you don't see a link in here, why they are always suspected - then you have your answers here: because they don't accept the German laws, people, living, thinking, believes. It's all a sin for them. So for our own security, we need measures like that. Of course, we also have Arabic people who are contemporary in thinking and also successful on all parts of live and work. They never will be stopped or searched. Germans aren't xenophobic. We have a few xenophobic ones, but this are stupid people and not to be considered Germans (assholes). And with the assholes too, their fears and their thinking is much supported by the carried out and planed suicide attacks and (just yesterday's) criminal statistics showing that each 3rd criminal case like rape has been done by a foreigner/help-seeking african or muslim (syrians and iraqis the most).
So all the hate and violence spreaded mirrors back. The same in Israel.
It's true that WW2 thing and Germans "no, we are not in the position to criticize" is a bad behavior. Which doesn't mean support. It's just a "no we are looking away" in my eyes. Not a sign of "..go on..".
USA started to be louder on this.. a lot of other countries started to be loud on this. They started to help, because what Israel is doing there is a humanitarian crisis. You can't call it genocide. Genocide would it be when they would concentrate on Palestinians, but they try to mitigate the hardliners of Hamas, which as we've seen are a big insecurity for Israel. Stop Hamas, you'll stop Israel. It's easy like this.
There's no guilty filled thinking from my side. I'm a neutral person. Thinking. Understanding why is something happening. That's my way of conflict resolving. If one is do no good, then he will get it back twice so he learns that and do not forget.. (it's the Russian in me haha)
So, there is no big reason to why demonstrate here or elsewhere, when the problem is utterly in different places. What's started there, needs to be ended there. For both sides.
I think it's not ironic that Germany is a big reason you're in this mess. It's all done by yourself. Germany never said "go on Israel. Let's illegally settle on Palestine" - infact they too criticize Israel for that. There is a lot of no-good in Israel. Where criticism is needed, criticism is brought up.
If you wanted to say because Germany couldn't solve the Jewish problem in WW2 so now we're having this big mess - i don't even dare to think you could've meant it that way. Then you're part of the problem and problems need to be resolved before it can get better. Change your view on the world and you change the world. Peace.
Some protest reasons are silly. Not everyone deserves to be heard.
Just let everyone be able to say something and to be heard. If it's silly, then it's up to discussion - everything other is suppressing opinions. Which is forbidden by law.
I mean, you can say that's "only in cases you support" dismissively, but I call it "dependent upon the facts of the situation."
I point out dismissively because clearly "right to protest" or whatever is only a marginal factor for opposing them getting kicked out. The real reason is that they supported the protesters, and because they support them, they can do no wrong, regardless of what the laws might be. Maybe this is painfully obvious to everyone already, but I want to point out that specifically.
Now you're making shit up about "they believe the protestors can do no wrong" to shore up your ridiculous dichotomy that even you don't actually believe.
Right but even that's absurd. You're basically saying "people shouldn't be able to use protests to veto whatever they want, unless it's A Good Reason™". For one, what is "A Good Reason"? How would the judicial or executive branch decide? Or is it up to the court of public opinion? Shouldn't that be left up to the legislature than whoever is terminally online on twitter or whatever? What happens if I think it's A Good Reason but you don't?
>Now you're making shit up about "they believe the protestors can do no wrong" to shore up your ridiculous dichotomy that even you don't actually believe.
I'm not sure how "they believe the protestors can do no wrong" is an incorrect depiction unless you interpret "can do no wrong" literally, to mean that even if they committed war crimes or whatever they'd be still left off the hook. It's pretty clear what's happening is that the protesters in question are fighting for a cause that some commenters support, and as a result they're given extra leeway to conduct activities that would otherwise be considered illegal. For instance if a bunch of farmers[1] decided to protest in a major capital by setting up encampments and blocking traffic for weeks, I doubt they'd be left off the hook.
[1] feel free to replace with other groups if you happen to sympathize with them, eg. NIMBYs, white nationalists, etc.
In the U.S. this started as warehouse protection, where rich merchants didn't want to hire their own security. They also, in parallel, grew from slave patrols (which were about protecting capital, back in the era when humans were considered a commodity).