Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange | Hacker News Reader

Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

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78 pointswglb55 comments

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (there is, obviously, a large minority of arabs, both muslims and christians, living in Israel. Yes, as first class citizens - I'm not talking about the occupied territories, but Israel within the 1967 lines).

During the rule of al-Mutawakkil, the tenth Abbasid Caliph, numerous restrictions reinforced the second-class citizen status of dhimmīs and forced their communities into ghettos.[15] For instance, they were required to distinguish themselves from their Muslim neighbors by their dress.[16] They were not permitted to build new churches or synagogues or repair old churches according to the Pact of Umar.

Is this an accurate portrayal of the good relations you describe or an exception? It's hard to find unbiased accounts of what Jewish-Islamic relations were like pre-israel, especially since both sides have an agenda to push.

And yet this hardly compares to what happened in Europe during the medieval period.

It seems like neither the Christian world or the Islamic world have been safe havens for Jewish people.

There are examples of widespread persecution, but this is incredibly low effort. Al-Mutawakkil (who was Uzbek and Greek, for what it's worth) was a psychopath that didn't represent the general Islamic view. The pressures he placed on Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and even other internal Islamic sects was not a popular view. Christians were regularly teaming up with Muslims to riot against the bad leadership[0].

The idea that it was enforced is even more dubious. The decrees were racist, sure, but unlike his more insane personalized antics (like when he ordered a holy Zoroastrian tree be cut down and shipped to him so he can build his house out of it[1]) the vast majority of the Islamic world didn't agree or support any of it and it was unlikely that any of it was actually enforced. He had little support outside of the Turkic world and a North African militia group, and even that was far and few inbetween.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homs_revolts_(854%E2%80%93855)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypress_of_Kashmar

I'm not sure the articles you cited are enough to prove that all of his decrees went un-enforced but I appreciate the rebuttal and added context. What we can both agree on is there was widespread persecution and the relationship was not as rosy as some would claim.

You seem hell-bent on not compromising with his position despite writing we can both agree. Can you agree that in the more-than-a-millenia of history there were some rosy relationships without widespread persecution too?

Well, the more serious decrees (such as demolition of churches to punish Christian groups) didn't happen[0], so by extension we can assume that the much more minor ones weren't likely enforced either.

But yeah to call it all rosy is definitely rewriting history. All Abrahamic faiths are hyper-aggressive and whenever we've seen politicization of one we see the suffering of other faiths. Of course on differing degrees as different leaderships and empires came and went.

[0] Almost all of these churches were eventually destroyed/taken over later, sometimes centuries later, but not during his lifetime.

I do think that your comment almost understates the relationship: in 1917, an incredible 40% of Baghdad's population was Jewish.

The nature of historical Jewish-Islamic relations is obviously a matter of great political contention (especially now). It varied depending on the politics of the time and place—sometimes rich and peaceful (and indeed better than Europe) and sometimes tragic and violent—but for anyone casually curious, there is a dedicated Wikipedia article that I think is pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Musl...

Describing Arabs in Israel as first-class citizens is a bit starry-eyed, although they're certainly better off than their second-class non-citizen cousins across the Green Line though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Racism_agains...

The fact that Israel carried out an intimidation campaign against Iraqi Jews to force them to immigrate is pretty much a mainstream historical discourse.[1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bomb...

The source you link to seems to indicate that this is not an accepted historical fact but very much disputed who precisely did what.

And I thought that enforcement is a direct retribution because of a certain nation being created in 1948. The relation certainly plunges downhill after that.

I've known Israelis and Arab Israelis. I would NOT call them 'first class citizens', there is discrimination codified into law and most state entities.

Jewish Arab relations historically were ok, not something I’d call “very good”. Some paces better than others, some times better than others. Generally though Jews were still second class citizens in Arab nations.

Here’s a wiki article that captures some the past issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world

Probably most people ignore the good relationship between Jews and Arabs because it is not taught or communicated, sadly, often. They participated in math, medicine, astronomy, and philosophy.

From what i understand, at the time this thing was made, Islamic society was more advanced and way better for jews than Christian Europe.

Right, while the Christian Europe was amidst a Dark Ages and was torturing and burning Jews and others, Islam was in its Golden Age period. Too bad it was short and Mongol hordes ended it, leaving a significant mark on the Islamic culture.

Just realized we are witnessing at the moment two wars (there are more, but these two just get significant news coverage) by cultures who were scarred by Mongols - Russia and Islamic Empire

The idea of "dark ages" is a myth (pun with the username intended), but if anything it applies to the early medieval age, which is exactly when anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe was... not very common, since persecution of Jews started later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_antisemitism

Yes. And zionism as a global political force is in large part, possibly mainly, funded and promoted by christian zionists, and not by jews.

Comment above implies a dichotomy between arab and jew which is wildly ahistorical.

To an extent the migration of jews to Israel from arab countries post-WWII was done by Israel, infamously the 'magic carpet' from Yemen for example.

As an aside, the urge among zionists to claim that muslims are the worst, OG colonizers is probably related to zionism being an explicitly colonial project, as stated by pretty much every influential early zionist. Cecil Rhodes was begged to help out due to his experience in this area, and the intimate relation between apartheid South Africa and Israel was in part made possible due to this similarity.

It's probably not taught in the US, but it's certainly taught in Israel, but they also include the periods after that when Arabs started massacring and prosecuting Jews.

It's not a single time period, a lot of stuff happened, and the relationship changed - and not because of Israel (history didn't start in 1948).

Israel is tiny and not influential in terms of global education. It is also studied in Jewish schools around the globe but also this is tiny comparing to the world itself.

1000% the current state of Islamo-Judaic relations is because of Israel. I really cannot fathom what alternate reality is otherwise.

How you want to decide who to blame for what is a different story, but the fact is what it is. History didn't begin in 1948, but the formation of Israel (which began before WWII) is what kicked off the current colder than ice relations between the two religions.

> I really cannot fathom what alternate reality is otherwise.

So all the massacres of Jews by Arabs before 1948 were done via time machine?

> is what kicked off the current colder than ice relations between the two religions.

This is laughably false.

You didn't read my comment. The formation of Israel began earlier than 1948. Arabs and Jews didn't begin killing each other out of nowhere. They did it over land disagreements which began because of Zionism which was almost a century old and being implemented well before WWII came around. Please learn history and stop spreading disinfo

That's an ... interesting alternate history. But modern Zionism started in 1882, yet the Genocide of Safed was in 1834.

Reading the article about it it's clear the local authorities did not prosecute Jews as a policy - but, the local population was full of hate for Jews.

You see it over and over when reading the history of the area - the official policy allowed Jews, while the individual people wanted to kill the Jews. Nothing has changed today.

And the hate for Jews was obviously not because of modern Israel, since that didn't exist, not was even thought of.

If you think I'm saying anyone anywhere hating Jews in the modern day is only because of Israel, then we're on different wavelengths. The overall, global decline in healthy relations between the religions largely has its locus in the creation and sustaining of Israel. Just as there are violent clashes there are good interactions, but the current political reality has subdued the latter and increased the former.

It's the same way as the creation of modern Pakistan has substantially decreased good relations between Muslims and Hindus. The idea that either side is wholly evil and the opposite is justified in its hate is completely contrary to everything we know about human beings. The average Hindu is very amenable to growing animosity towards Muslims when he sees his nation's arch rival, an ethno-religious state, send spies over the border, orchestrate bombings, etc. And that's how many in the Muslim world feel about Israel who has also orchestrated bombings, assassinations, etc. in their countries.

You are rewriting history. WHY did the creation of Israel have to be associated with bad relationships? After all the Jews purchased all the land they were going to live on, and the partition gave them empty land. And it's not like it was their national land - it was not a country. It was only personal land, and that was exchanged via purchase.

The Arabs responded with anger and a war. The reason is that hate by Arabs long predates this time period. Have a look:

https://www.jewishrefugees.org.uk/2011/01/massacre-of-jews-b...

You are writing as if Israel was some "new change" that made Arabs mad, but that's not the case, it's simply a continuation of what never changed.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but that is such an incredibly beautiful object, with those delicate etched hyperbolae. So much skill and craft went into making it and you can see that it is a superbly-designed practical tool that was well-used. It's quite humbling to see things like that.

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