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Comment by gadders | Hacker News Reader

So your plan is for people to have a longer commute to work, work 8 hours at the job, have a longer commute home, and then have to trudge to a shop in the evening most nights of the week (in all weathers)? Sounds idyllic. Food shopping every night can replace going to the gym or playing with your kids. And if you're elderly and would rather drive - tough luck.

>>If you lived in a world where accessing the shop was easy and convenient, and they stocked everything you need, and you didn't have oodles of storage at home to store it all: why would you even make such a huge shopping trip?

Well obviously no-one is going to buy food they can't store. If they live in a tiny pod then by all means subsistence shop on a daily basis. However, the groceries will also be far more expensive.

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The issue you're having is not understanding how it can be.

The lucky truth is that this is not some hypothetical situation, it's a lived reality for me and many more people in Europe.

I'm 34 and I don't even have a drivers license; that's freedom. I never needed one.

That said: I'm not really talking about an absolute reality (IE; no cars at all). Reducing car usage actually helps those that really need to use a car, like the disabled, the elderly, people hauling large things (such as when they move homes) etc;

Groceries aren't far more expensive, but the inner city stores are, on average 5% more expensive than larger stores of the same brand. 5% on your groceries is vastly under the tax burden of maintaining huge roads, the accidents they cause (which has a healthcare burden) and even disregarding that: fuel cost and mileage on your vehicle (which increases insurance rates and decreases the longevity of your car).

I live in Europe as well.

I can understand not owning a car, but never learning to drive is like never learning to swim. Driving is a life skill, whether you own a car or not.

Groceries are a lot more than 5% more expensive in a corner shop vs out of town supermarket.

Getting your drivers license is also very costly, must be transferred when you move country, in countries like Sweden (where I live) you have to retake your test every 10 years.

It also requires a lot of time to do anything with it. It's an administrative document, like a passport. You can say "getting a passport is important" and I'd believe you, but better to get it when you need it rather than pre-emptively, because otherwise you're wasting valid years.

I find often that when we do things like taking a drivers license we feel like we are incentivised to use it, when we use it we purchase vehicles and register them and then we have sort of a sunk cost feeling. Once you've invested all that time and cost using it feels cheap so you are more likely to use it.

On the flip side, because I don't have a license I make subtle decisions to avoid using a car, so my life is relatively car-free, on the very rare occasions I do need a car I can hire someone and it works out significantly cheaper in the long run.

Chacun à son goût. I'd prefer not to have to rely on other people. Also, if you change your mind learning to drive is a lot harder when you're older.

> I'd prefer not to have to rely on other people.

Same, that’s why I don’t want to depend on the fuel supply chain or the regulation of a car, or the upkeep of the roads.

I know that in certain cities in China they have little lotteries on which cars are allowed to drive each day based on how their license plates start as a way to avoid traffic situations. (they still have traffic situations).

(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13619...)

I never owned a car, never felt the need to. I have learned to drive as a young adult, but unlike swimming, I never found that skill actually useful. If I had to drive a car today I would rather take some lessons first anyway, as there's no way I could actually drive safely otherwise. It's very easy for me to imagine much better ways to spend the money used to learn how to drive and much more useful "life skills" to acquire.

How is driving to a costco, parking on a giant parking lot, walking through a massive store, loading up a cart, walking the the cart to your car/truck, unloading everything, returning the cart, and then driving home at all efficient?

People do giant shopping trips exactly because the whole process is so cumbersome.

The US has the longest commutes of any country in the world because of urban sprawl and zoning. Car-free cities offer an alternative to that way of life.

Door-to-door, a Costco trip usually takes me about 90 minutes. I go to Costco probably once every two weeks.

Just a data point. I'd love to hear how often urbanites go to the grocery store and how long each trip typically takes.

If you go once every 2 weeks, where do you get your fresh fruit and veggies? Do you just live off of frozen food? Do you plan all your meals 2 weeks ahead? What if you have people coming over for dinner on short notice?

Urbanites still have the option to go to a big-box grocery store. Mine is an 8-minute drive away, but we just never go there.

Ah, Costco isn't the only grocery store I go to. Roughly, I grocery shop once per week, alternating between Costco and other grocery stores where I buy fresh foods or smaller items that don't make sense from Costco.

My personal feeling is being able to stock up in bulk is a net timesaving benefit of car-centric living, BUT the tradeoff comes when you only need a few things from the store. On the one hand, it's only about once or twice a month that I need to go to the store because I need just 2-3 very specific things. However it's a major annoyance, and it'd definitely be nice to be able to walk a short distance to get them.

Didn't see any replies with specifics, so here's mine: Door-to-door, it takes me no more than 30 minutes for a shop, and I usually go 3 times every 2 weeks. So about the same as you. I wouldn't consider my location "lucky" either: there's 3 supermarkets alone within a 5 minute cycle from my house. Across most of the city, you're always going to be close to one.

> The US has the longest commutes of any country in the world

I lived in Mumbai starting 7:30 in morning I reach office by 10AM after changing buses and trains. Leave office at 6:30 -7 in evening and hit home by ~10 pm. And even those days I worked in IT so not exactly among poor who have to live far away.

Claiming US commute being longest is just ignoring how billions outside North America/Europe lives.

It turns out you're right. Thank you for the correction.

Here, "somewhere in Europe", you can order groceries online and get them delivered to your door for cheap. This kind of service really took off during COVID and then stuck. I guess people found it convenient.

We usually still go to the store, but use this service when we have a large amount of shopping to do as it just is... convenient. Instead of driving to and running around in the store looking for all the stuff we need and then carry it out to the car and into the home, we just gather around the iPad in the comfort of our living room and order what we want. The day after it shows up at the door. It's fantastic.

The MRTs in Taiwan run very tight schedules with high frequency. Commutes are relatively short. Most folks go out with their kids and get food together (Taiwan being known for their night markets).

    > However, the groceries will also be far more expensive

It's counterintuitive, but groceries and food are actually very cheap in Taiwan.

Seeing is believing.

Yeah, what a big trudge, walking to the corner grocery for some food for dinner. A ten minute trip.

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