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Comment by SatvikBeri | Hacker News Reader

With a couple of months of programming knowledge, I wrote a program that saved my company $2MM/year. The key was combining knowledge of the business processes with some knowledge of programming. There were people with knowledge of one or the other, but not both.

I still can't write a basic app, but that doesn't matter. I can do things that provide massive value, and I wouldn't be able to do them without programming knowledge.

I think Jeff is underestimating how much time the average office worker would save simply by learning Excel Macros or some basic scripting. Learning to program is really damn valuable, especially in fields where most people don't know any programming.

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I agree with this wholeheartedly. My line of work could be made much easier through some very simple software. The only reason that software doesn't exist is because (I assume that) nobody with programming knowledge understands the needs of someone who does my job. Or cares, for that matter. There aren't many of us.

I'm working my way through Ruby on Rails tutorials simply because I think there's tremendous value to be created without the need for anything groundbreaking. Just tailored.

And if I'm right, I'll be able to afford to hire someone to fix my crappy code.

If you are right there are probably a hundred people on here able to provide a working MVP alongside you and do it faster, cleaner and pick up on solutions you cant possibly know yet. Be a domain expert.

But learn to code anyway :-)

I'm sure anyone here could do that. But how many people here are looking for a non technical co-founder? Coders are solving their own problems, and until I can hack together a prototype I don't think I'll be able to draw any attention from real programmers.

"Coders are solving their own problems" , yes many are but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be better served financially by solving someone elses.

Not by me. I can't afford to pay them unless I can raise some money. I don't see how I can raise the money unless I can cobble together a prototype myself... even if just to show that my idea is viable and that I'm serious about it.

Regardless of one's feelings w/r/t the Atwood OP, it's hard to argue that programmers often conflate programming with solving problems. They are distinct concepts.

I think I'd actually prefer a pure domain expert who can express their business and ideas well than a half-assed programmer.

No offence, but what often ends up happening is you turn into a know-it-all client. "This should only take an hour. You just have to loop over these results and format them...".

Finding a technical co-founder is a sales process where you need to prove that it's a good idea and that you've made a significant investment yourself (I would prefer if it wasn't code) like thinking through the interface, and as many use cases / stories as you can think of, and describing in detail the problem(s) being solved.

The pitches we hate are the guys who know you through a friend who want you to make a Groupon-like application for their specific market, without having invested more than the 5 minutes it took to write it down while baked. I'm still not going to be sold on this idea even if they manage to throw together some terrible PHP site that sort of acts like a real application.

That being said, I'm in the boat that thinks at least some rudimentary programming skills would be useful for everyone.

> you need to prove that it's a good idea and that you've made a significant investment yourself ... like thinking through the interface, and as many use cases / stories as you can think of, and describing in detail the problem(s) being solved.

That sounds exactly like the skillset of a good software engineer. This whole debate is about the fact that a whole bunch of people don't know how to break down a large problem into small logical pieces.

"describing in detail the problem(s) being solved" is about the most concise and accurate description of programming I can think of. Asking someone non-technical to do this is like asking a ramen noodle-eater to describe in detail the process of flambéing Steak Diane.

I agree it's a good skill to have in many careers, software engineer included, but it is definitely not the definition of programmer. If you wanted to map this skill to a profession, I'd probably go with Business Analyst being the closest.

Breaking a problem down into solvable parts is something I was taught in math and it was invaluable. I'd written programs before and after that, so I wouldn't say that this technique makes you a programmer. Rather it's an approach you'll need to be a good programmer.

Asking someone non-technical to describe the problem they want to solve in detail is completely within the realm of reason. Non-technical != moron. Knowing how to do this, does not make you a programmer. Likewise, being a programmer doesn't make you good at this.

What about knowing enough coding to understand the amount of work that needs to be put in to transform an idea into reality? Also to be able to construct the interface is easier when you know some code. Those are some reasons why I'm investing time to learn programming.

I think the assumption that you will understand the amount of work needed for a given solution is part of the problem. Estimating a project accurately is NOT a skill you're going to pick up by learning a bit of programming.

As a programmer of many years, I still miss-calculate the amount of work required to solve a problem. It's something you get better at over time, but I totally sucked at it when I was starting out as a programmer. It's one of the hardest skills to attain IMO.

I think it's great that more people learn to code. I'm just saying it's not some magic faerie dust that solves all your problems. It's just another piece of the puzzle.

I wrote an online attendance system for my school, which often come with way more features than we need and cost in the range of $50k. It's not $2 million, but $50k is a teacher's salary. In education, that's huge. It took me 2 weeks to set up, and another 4 weeks of testing with teachers to iron out all of the bugs, but now it is used every day by all of our teachers.

I've also used my ability to code to develop learning apps for my students. It's been incredibly valuable in my career.

"The key was combining knowledge of the business processes with some knowledge of programming."

Knowledge of programming wasn't required to save your company 2mm per year. All it would have taken is someone recognizing there was a problem that could be solved by programming. If you did the job with a couple of months of programming knowledge someone could have been easily hired to do this job, right? They just had to realize there was a problem to be solved.

It seems to me that someone who had any knowledge of what computers could do could have saved your company that money. Just like a person working in a commercial kitchen that wasn't a carpenter could have hired people to improve efficiency and save money.

Knowing that programming could solve a problem requires knowledge of programming. Someone with zero programming experience doesn't look at a problem and say, "Yeah I can write a script to solve that."

Sorry you're wrong based on my many years experience with dealing with non-programmers and this exact situation.

Seeing what is already being done with computers on a daily basis gives people knowledge of what can be done without knowledge of programming. Knowing programming but not enough could also be an impediment as well. You may not realize there are simple ways of solving an issue that to you with your limited knowledge seems like it could take a tremendous amount of effort. There is an expression "a little knowledge can be dangerous".

And how many people are going to take the time to learn to code enough anyway to see all the possibilities?

If "a little knowledge can be dangerous", why learn anything ever? That's a really pisspoor reason to tell people to be ignorant.

I'd say they're right, based on my many years experience dealing with non-programmers and this exact situation.

Knowledge of programming and the business are both important and key here, but it's the slant towards business that can give someone the leg up on saving companies money. It isn't always about simple data entry or automation, it's going about your daily job with the insights and skills that basic programming provide that allow people to recognize where a new script or application could improve their business process in some way.

Business processes can be extremely complicated, and you can't easily impart business knowledge and processes upon a programmer in a manner sufficient to give them the ability to recognize where their skills can be best applied in a business.

"Seeing what is already being done with computers on a daily basis gives people knowledge of what can be done without knowledge of programming"

Not true at all, people can use computers every day of their life in their job and still not even understand where a window goes when they minimise it.

The guy below said it before me. I have seen things that could be handled with a good programmer, and I am not one just yet.

But you have knowledge of programming, correct? Or are you saying you have absolutely no idea how to program?

I have no knowledge of programming.I downloaded Greenfoot to start learning Java in my spare time and I am learning from step one.

Exactly what I came here to say.

Let us not forget the difference between scripting and software. Shell scripts or bookmarklets or greasemonkey/browser plugins - These can be useful to the majority of workers.

Many have a specific problem that could be made much easier by coding but never will be address by professional coders.

In terms of capital + human capital multiplying your effort, programming is pretty hard to beat. Compare sales calls, meetings with important people, instructions delivered to staff, farming with tractor; even hands-free investing requires a lot of time.

I think the most similar skill to coding is writing. John Updike remarked, several decades ago, that fiction creates value without destroying anything (ok, a trivial fraction of the value). But it's clearly not just about being able to put some words on a page.

Sure, I think he's also underestimating what percent of average office workers actually do have some of the talents and inclination to become skilled professional programmers. Despite excelling at math and doing some basic programming (in qbasic in fact) as a kid, it didn't occur to me to major in CS until I was halfway through college. I think broader exposure can only help people realize that programming is something they actually are interested in.

Brilliant. Thanks for sharing.

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