Waffle House's Magic Marker System | Hacker News Reader

Waffle House's Magic Marker System

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158 pointsTomte158 comments

As a regular customer of the onboard dining on BC Ferries, I was always a bit mystified about how the cashier (maybe 20 m from the counter where you order) seemed to have some kind of clairvoyance regarding which type burger(s) to charge for, as they all use the same kind of wrapper.

It turns out the wrapper (that's printed with patches of stripes and crosshatches in different colo(u)rs), can be wrapped in a way that exposes a particular pattern on the outside of the finished package that indicates what's inside.

I'm sure this sort of system is used elsewhere but I've never noticed it anywhere else.

Lots of fast food places use wrappers like this. Here's a picture of a Taco Bell wrapper that can be a regular taco, taco supreme, double decker taco, or "special" depending on the fold: https://www.flickr.com/photos/target_man_2000/16329290081

I first saw this at McDonald's. Drink lids (everywhere) have those little bubbles that can be pressed to indicate what type of drink as well. Diet, Sprite, etc.

Sure but aren't those all the same price?

Yeah but if you order a diet coke and your friend orders a regular coke you want to make sure you get the right drink out of the carrier.

Especially since I'll probably spew as soon as I taste the Aspartame!

They're used rarely these days, but in some places they're busy enough that they will make have someone making the drinks and marking them.

Which is why they don't have to indicate "sprite" or "orange" because you can see the color through the lids.

Where drinks are self-serve they're not needed, but usually still exist.

>They're used rarely these days

If you don't order different drinks, sure.

>Which is why they don't have to indicate "sprite" or "orange" because you can see the color through the lids.

The paper (cardboard?) lids aren't translucent.

Those are used to tell the difference between drinks within the same order: diet coke vs regular coke for example.

Not in the UK (passthrough sugar tax)

As someone who tries to minimise my sugar intake, one of my nightmares is getting served a non-diet drink by accident, because one of the lids gets pressed wrongly along the way.

I wonder if there's technology out there for cheap sugar testing sticks… huh, it looks like a company finally launched like that in 2021.

Got a link for em strips?

The brand I found is called DietDetector:

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/breakthrough-soft-d...

Wouldn't you just be able to taste the difference, and then not drink it?

I've long wondered about this sort of thing. I have friends who drink no-sugar drinks, but I can't stand them. Even the ones everyone says are fantastic taste bad to me.

I wonder if there's not some sort of genetic connection influencing how some non-sugar sweeteners taste, much like the genetic link with cilantro tasting terrible for some.

Might the commenter really not be able to taste the difference? To me, it would be stark and unmistakable, but perhaps that's not true for everyone.

It might also have something to do with acquired taste - maybe people who can tolerate artificial sweeteners have simply gotten used to the weird flavors they add and don't taste them anymore?

I don't eat fast food or drink normal/diet soda enough to taste the difference, and the difference got even smaller when McDonald's in my country moved away from Coke Light/Diet Coke, and only sold Coke Zero as the no-sugar alternative.

Values of electrical resistors are often indicated via a pattern of coloured rings around the body.

That's how you can identify a 24-ohm snake https://xkcd.com/1604/

I haven't had a breakfast on BC Ferry for a while since they redid the interior/livery on all of the boats. Pretty sure I used to eat the jam packets on the tables.

Eating at a Waffle House (preferably at 1am following a night out) is a unique American cultural experience that especially those confined to the Bay Area have been denied. It's a place where those from all walks of life come together.

Sounds like IHOP / Denny's in other places

As someone who lives near all 3 and a Cracker Barrel.

Waffle House is special.

Cracker Barrel is truly awful. Worst chain restaurant in America.

It could be worse, they could take away the rocking chairs and peg board game one day.

Olive Garden has entered the chat.

Nope, just when you think Olive Garden is awful, Applebee's manages to dig the hole deeper.

TBF, we should just agree that they're all nasty at this point.

The sad thing is that they used to be good. At least not that long ago, the one near me was my go-to for corned beef hash. However, after the last visit barely 5 years ago, never going there again.

These places are far more civilized than a waffle house. Waffle houses have to hire security guards to deal with the drunken foolishness that goes down inside most weekend nights (at least those sited nearish to bars). Everything in the waffle house is able to be cleaned with a hose.

One day I hope to have time to have a brief stint as a WH short order cook, and learn the art of catching a thrown chair. It’s also the only way to buy shares in the org, as they’re private but have an employee stock plan. A special slice of America; if you haven't been, highly recommend.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/waffle-hou...

I read this as "catching a thrown chair is the only way to [earn] shares in the org..." which seems kind of fitting, to be honest.

> Waffle houses have to hire security guards to deal with the drunken foolishness that goes down inside most weekend nights

As is so often true, this is highly variable based on geography and local culture, and the contention that a Denny's is more 'civilized' than a Waffle House has a lot more to do with which one's you're frequenting than it does with the restaurants themselves.

Just the way they setup the restaurants is enough to quell a certain level of chaos in a typical dennys. Usually they are pretty sprawling on the inside. Plenty of space between booths. Kind of dimmer/hotel lounge aesthetic in the more recently renovated ones (don't ask me why I am so familiar with short order breakfast chains). Same with ihop only they lean heavily into the kid friendlyness, with posters of decadent sweet pancakes.

Waffle house is cramped, brightly lit with harsh fluorescent light, and nothing but hard surfaces. A few drunk people talking is enough to fill the entire restaurant including the exposed kitchen with sound. If they start throwing anything it quickly hits everyone in the restaurant including the line cooks. I've seen probably four people vomit all over the place in a waffle house. I can't say I've seen anything quite the same in the dennys, usually its truckers and the elderly there not people showing up after last call at the bars.

They're designed so that, if necessary, they can be operated by a single employee. That's why they're so tightly cramped around the grill: so that someone can cook and still keep an eye on a table.

This is also what makes it really easy to get attached to your local Waffle House: the staff make the place what it is.

I'm fairly sure IHOP/Denny's have similar problems with patrons these days, they have plenty of high/drunk foolishness to contend with, unfortunately.

Near bars (and colleges, etc), you'll find security guards Denny's and IHOP both. Mostly to deal with the drunken foolishness that goes down.

It is very different because of the size and layout. You almost feel like everyone, including the cooks, are at one big table. It is honestly one of my favorite places to eat alone. It can be really fun at times. Also, kind of dangerous too

Waffle House is an entity unto itself:

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffle_House_Index

See: https://www.motherjones.com/criminal-justice/2011/11/four-se...

See: https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/kid-rock-arrested...

And the man himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bct8stbZafI

Waffle House goes from nice to war zone and back again just about every day. It never closes, never... If a Waffle House is closed you better have a boat or a gun cause what ever comes next will likely require one or both.

>Waffle House goes from nice to war zone and back again

Saturday Night Live did a skit about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYNFqmu2toI

That was funny and shockingly accurate.

Waffle House is for lovers too:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlqyWYgE6go (How About the Waffle House for Valentines Day?)

- https://www.wvlt.tv/2023/11/01/newlyweds-hold-reception-waff...

Lots of other tidbits:

- https://www.mashed.com/99239/untold-truth-waffle-house/

If you work there and can't get a day off to get married, apparently, they're cool enough to let you hold your ceremony in the parking lot!

https://www.grubstreet.com/2008/09/national_gettin_hitched_a...

Didn’t I read once that FEMA has an official “Waffle house indicator” where they track WH closures to estimate the impact of hurricanes and such?

It's the first link in zer00eyz's comment. :-)

A friend and I Walked into Waffle House at 3am after I was released from the ER. My shirt was blood stained and half my face was bandaged up and it solicited pretty much no reaction from the staff or anyone else.

I think it is very different. IHOP is a low grade sit-down restaurant where all the food is too sweet. Denny's is sometimes better, but still decidedly low grade. The problem with both is they kinda try to serve stuff that could be better, but they suck at it.

Waffle House has no pretensions, they are unashamedly serving super simple food with zero attempt to be fancy. But they're pretty good at what they do choose to serve (or at least pretty consistent).

I love going there any time I'm in the South. I really wish we had them in the PNW. We're finally starting to get some In-n-Outs here, I'd be in heaven if we got Waffle House too. I can dream...

as a southerner I beg you to avoid comparing our precious Waffle House to a mere Denny's

Anthony Bourdain, upon visiting his first Waffle House, remarked "This is better than the French Laundry":

https://youtu.be/bct8stbZafI?si=ru9hL8xH_a_75J5I

Yes, but it isn't.

Bourdain’s show was about traveling the world, eating cheap food with the local common man.

He was good enough to cook in the kitchen at French Laundry and rich enough to eat in their dining room as often as he wanted. But he was very much anti food snobbery.

It's fine to be anti-food snobbery, but it doesn't change the facts, and to make a comment like that descends into reverse snobbery(which is just as ridiculous as snobbery but rarer)

Maybe if he was as drunk at the French Laundry as he was at the Waffle House, he would rate it differently.

Being anti-food-snobbery is great. But let's be real: the Waffle House might be fantastic (I've never eaten at one so I wouldn't know), but there's still a reason that the Laundry can charge two orders of magnitude more for a meal than the Waffle House and still be sold out every single night.

Can the French Laundry serve as many customers as the Waffle House in the same night?

Taste is a matter of taste. And there's a time and place for all foods.

Obviously the French laundry model doesn’t scale and obviously tastes vary. The Waffle House has its place. But better? Nah.

This thread is ridiculous. First of all, better can mean many things. In some ways Waffle House is better and in others worse. Second of all, Bourdain's comment was obviously tongue-in-cheek. Lastly, despite the name sake, I never go to Waffle House for the waffles (the item Bourdain was eating —slathered in fake butter and fake maple syrup no less—when he made the comment). Obviously hash browns (smothered, diced, and peppered with two eggs over easy) are where it's at.

HN will argue about anything, eh?

But can the waitstaff at the Laundry fight?

It’s simple comfort food consistently cooked by an often sassy staff. Sometimes that beats a Gucci plate with opaque aioli at absurd prices.

If Bourdain says my old Waffle House beats a French laundromat who am I to argue?

Cultural institutions are something to behold.

Sure, and if I say that my 4 year olds drawings are better than anything Van Gogh ever made, who could argue against that?

What if Damien Hirst said that about your 4 year old's drawings though?

Then I would say there is some other game Mr Hirst is playing that isn't about judging the quality of art.

And then I might tell him to put up or shut up - I'll believe it when I see hundreds of millions for these scribbles.

I wonder if Bourdain ever returned to waffle house, despite his proclamations?

> I'll believe it when I see hundreds of millions for these scribbles.

I mean, unless he's an idiot, he'll still pay the market-clearing price for the drawings. Quality and taste are subjective. Monetary value is not.

Well, he clearly is an idiot if he thinks the paintings are better than Picasso's.

I don't think Waffle House has locations in any major Urban location.

I really wish we had them in Boston also. It is an experience that even other diners don't really replicate.

Especially the price, I am always shocked when I go to visit parents just how much you get at Waffle House for multiple people for what I am used to spending on just myself.

But it is more than that. The size, the layout, the code words for how you want your hash browns, etc.

>I don't think Waffle House has locations in any major Urban location.

Columbus, Ohio and Atlanta, Georgia both have Waffle Houses. I don't think it's universally a rule that they stay out of cities.

Also New Orleans (by the VA Hospital). And I recall eating at one in on the northside of Dallas (which may or may not be "urban")

Here's their map: https://locations.wafflehouse.com

Waffle House started just outside of Atlanta, and you can still see that. In other big cities they seem to stay outside of the core - I suspect they don't want to have locations without parking. (But off the top of my head I can name two Atlanta-area Waffle Houses that don't have their own parking, namely the one right off Centennial Olympic Park and the one in downtown Decatur.)

The one at Georgia Tech also doesn't have parking

Good for people watching, that one is. We went there for breakfast every single day when I was in Atlanta to retrieve my OMSCS degree (we were staying in the GT hotel in the same building, so it was super convenient). I'm easy to please, and my waistline is better because we don't have Waffle House in the PNW. Maybe I'd grow tired of it, but no guarantees.

To your first point, they are prolific throughout the South. Very prominent in Atlanta

It may vary on your definition of major - but they definitely do in the southeast and lower midwest.

Come to Atlanta, down the street from me are two completely separate Waffle Houses built right next to each other that share the same parking lot.

This sounds possible, but where is it?

A quick Kagi found a few of them, apparently a Waffle House has to be a certain size, and if they can do more business, it spawns another one.

They're on Chamblee Tucker Road right off of I-85 in NE Atlanta. Here's a screenshot from Google Maps: https://ibb.co/0tdBRR1

Now that I think about it I actually used to drive past them sometimes! Only one of them shows up on Waffle House's own map, though.

Here's an article talking about double Waffle Houses, from 2019, when the older of the two at Buford Highway / I-285 closed: https://www.tonetoatl.com/2019/07/Waffle-House-Closed-Buford... - they mention the pair on Chamblee-Tucker. Apparently one is catering-only, which probably explains why it doesn't show on the map. They also mention pairs that used to exist at Clairmont Road near I-85 and Lawrenceville Highway near I-285. Apparently WH is trying to reduce the number of these.

How do you decide which one to enter?

IIRC one of them is for catering only

There's a pair off of I-85 just north of Atlanta like that (see other comments to that post), so yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. Do both of them show up on Waffle House's map? It looks like they don't put the catering-only locations there - I guess they don't want people showing up?

In Macon (a couple of hours down I-75 from Atlanta) there were for a long time two Waffle Houses on either side of the interstate at the Pio Nono exit

Downtown Atlanta for sure. There was also one near me when I lived in downtown Colorado Springs, which has half a million people.

Every large city in the southeast.

They have quite a few in Houston, only the 4th largest metro area in the US.

If you look at the map (https://locations.wafflehouse.com) they seem to avoid the central part of Houston though, roughly anything inside Beltway 8. Generally they have locations in the suburbs of big cities but not in the big cities themselves. Except Atlanta, as has already been pointed out.

(Disclaimer: I have never been to Houston except to change planes in its airport.)

It's a running joke that any driving directions in the Atlanta Metro Area will include the words "go down Peachtree" and "when you see the waffle house..."

When we first moved into our house the neighbor kid made sure we knew where the nearest Waffle House was. It’s on Peachtree (Industrial).

Well, not VC or tech elites, apparently.

The tech elites of Atlanta and the Waffle House outside of Georgia Tech beg to differ

I have never lived near a Waffle House, but did eat lunch at one in Mobile AL about ten years ago. I found nothing particularly unique about it.

I think it's the affordable, approachable 24/7 always-welcome aspect more than the food.

People have fond memories of going to Waffle House after partying, or going with their tween friends as the only place they could afford to go out to eat, or going after softball games in their still-dirty uniforms.

Another commenter mentioned that Anthony Bourdain said Waffle House was better than The French Laundry (while eating Waffle House drunk, late at night).

To eat at The French Laundry you need to plan ahead and try hard to get a reservation. You have to act and dress appropriately and show up in maybe a 15 minute window for the hostess to deign to grant you the privilege of being seated.

You can eat at Waffle House on a whim, with anyone you like, in (just about) any state you like.

Having had both I wouldn't say that the food at Waffle House is actually better than the food at The French Laundry. But there is something that people appreciate about Waffle House being the reliable place you can always show up for comfort food, at minimum cost with minimum judgement.

> in (just about) any state you like.

In any state but a northern one. Sadly, there are none in the northeast. Waffle House to me borders between being an "american" thing and specifically a "southern" thing

There are several waffle houses in PA, DE, and MD. Isn't that the northeast?

Maryland is usually referred to as the mid-Atlantic. Technically speaking, MD is South of the Mason-Dixon line, so it’s in the south. I say this as a Marylander myself.

There may be a couple in Northeast PA (and others in Pennsyltucky), but those parts of PA aren't usually thought of as part of the Northeast US.

Sorry, I should've said there are "essentially" none.

The two towns, Lancaster and Allentown, in PA with Waffle Houses, are kind of exceptions that prove the rule. They are special rarities -- the northern waffle house, like the jumbo shrimp.

But Waffle House in its true environment is no more a rarity than an orange in Florida. Its commonness is an inherent part of its charm.

Technically, it's possible a northerner could drive a few hours to get to a Waffle House. But the whole point and charm of Waffle House is its ubiquity. Anytime, anyplace: just past the next offramp and open 24 hours.

It is not a planned destination, it's ... just where yall end up. And so no, while technically there's a couple waffle houses north of the mason dixon, those in the know would agree there isn't really waffle house in the north, regrettably.

Since I've only seen or experienced Waffle House in the south and southern midwest, I've always considered it a southern thing specifically rather than a general US thing.

I've been eating there all my life (I'm from the south). No there's nothing unique about it to be gauged from a single visit. You'll need to go multiple times to understand and appreciate 1) the consistency in both the food and the service 2) how cheap it is (or really, was) compared to other diner places 3) how they never run out of anything despite being open 24/7 4) how you never really know what's going to go down, especially late at night.

This comment does not substantively contradict its parent.

> I found nothing particularly unique about it.

it's cheap, it has a basic menu that covers most dietary requirements, it's understaffed by design, and it's open 24/7.

I live in LA -- there is a distinct lack of 24/7 shit even here. I wish we had waffle house simply because i'm sick of Dennys and Norm's being the only 24/7 choice to wander into if I don't want to drive my ass to Canters'.

the counter?

Was it between 12am-4am?

An astute observer traveling in the vicinity of Mobile, AL on I-10 will notice that one exit in particular has a Waffle House on both the north side and the south side of the interstate. For travelers' convenience of course.

fun fact: Waffle House used to sell Chick-fil-A sandwiches

> from all walks of life come together.

that's an interesting take and i suppose in a way you're right. Another way to describe waffle house at last call is imagine you picked up a zoo and shook it really hard for about 5 minutes then set it down and walked in.

Does USA have places that sell kebab?

Yes but no.

What we consider "kebabs" are skewers with grilled meat and/or veggies on them. I'm guessing you mean döner kebab. We do have shawarma which is similar, but I've never seen somewhere that really nails the kind of döner kebab I had in Europe.

Think this is catching on slowly, give it another 10 years or so we will probably have something like that everywhere. America is pretty good at adopting popular food vehicles.

I will be so happy if this happens.

We've got them in St. Louis, although they are slightly different than the ones common in Europe. (as the places that serve them here are usually Bosnian instead of Turkish). They're served on somun or lepinja bread and use tzatziki sauce instead of the sweet white/spicy red sauce combo that's typical in Germany.

Here's the online menu for one of my favorite places: https://www.jspitaria.us/s/order (they also have a Berliner kebab, which is a little closer to the ones in Germany, but not quite the same).

There are a few outposts of The Kebab Shop (https://thekebabshop.com/locations/), and here in San Jose California area there are a lot of Mediterranean restaurants selling shwarma.

In any large city, yes there will be a palce to get kebabs. Most college cities, too. A lot of times it's just a tiny restaraunt with 4 tables in the back of a grocery store, but that's when you know it's gonna be good.

and just like fight club, if it’s your first time, you have to fight.

True, but we have In N Out. I've been there in flip flops and in a tux (as has Paul Giamatti, apparently [1])

1: https://ew.com/paul-giamatti-in-n-out-burger-awards-8426387

There are in-n-out Waffle House crossover cities. Yes, I did plan one cross country trip just to have this perfect day.

This reminds me of the simple substitution cipher that coin, diamond, and antique dealers use on their price tags to encode the lowest price their staff are allowed to take during bartering: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/760945/how-do-deale... https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/109089/cracking... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_cipher#:~:text=In...

Also related, only very tangentially, but ever-interesting, FEMA's Waffle House Index (2016): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15105662

Oh wow, this brought up an old memory. Fry's Electronics used to have a code like this in their old "green screen" quote system. There was a group of letters at the bottom of every screen that listed the true cost of the item. The cipher word was "Pathfinder". This was used to help sales managers determine discounts and markdowns on used/damaged/clearance product.

I can't help thinking its simultaneously ingenious and hilariously convoluted. Looks like it would be fast to setup, easy to read from the line cook area, and also simple to modify. I'm sure if I was doing the work I could learn the system pretty quickly, but glancing over it as an outsider all I can think about it how ridiculous it sounds that an upright jam packet over a mustard packet means 3 eggs.

And they use what they have, these places always need pickles and jam packets, whereas a real magic marker can dry up and you might forget to order replacement. Fascinating for sure.

> I can't help thinking its simultaneously ingenious and hilariously convoluted.

It's just ingenious, they're coding the order onto the customer's plate by partially setting it up. They're getting some of the work done, and they don't have to fumble with some separate source of truth.

Still would take a lot of training to get right. Its not intuitive. And I can certainly find a lot of humor in how its implemented.

If you have a system with low turnover of staff then intuitive is not the goal.

The goal is to efficiently transfer information with additional steps in a common language.

A similar example is the hand signals from the old trading exchange floors [1]. The point wasn't for it to be easy to learn. The point was to make it easy to transfer visual information across a very loud and boisterous place. Plus, you had to do it with both people you knew well and people you may never have worked with before.

1 - https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008...

We're talking about Waffle House staff here so I'd be surprised if the turnover was low.

> Still would take a lot of training to get right.

I don't think it would take that much extra training, especially compared to whatever shorthand a waitress or ordering system would have to use.

And it seems like it's something that's possible to get right. All the alternatives I can think of suffer from serious problems this one doesn't (e.g. having to mentally keep track of the correspondence between the order ticket and palate, which invites lots of error).

> Its not intuitive.

It actually seems pretty intuitive. There appears to be a pretty clear correspondence between the code and what it means in most cases.

Also there's nothing to transfer and lose, assuming you don't drop the plate, any built plate just continues until it's complete, no messy papers to move and try to keep associated with what plates. The waiter bringing the order to the table can QA it and pick the right plates.

It's kind of genius.

which, with a little surfing, leads to: https://www.acontinuouslean.com/2009/03/02/hand-signals-at-t...

Doesn't this encoding scheme seem extremely brittle to errors during operation?

Like for example, you put the jelly pack at 12 o'clock, and then if someone rotates the plate, now it's at 6 o'clock and you have the wrong meat for the order.

Or, someone simply bumps into the plate and the packet slides to the other side. Even if you bumped it and it did not slide, you could not verify that it did not slide.

My general take away here is that someone tried to invent a new language basically (pictographic). And english (pen/paper) was probably sufficient? Inventing new languages (and having everyone learn them) is extremely hard.

Edit: btw, I've eaten at waffle house several times, although it was 10+ years ago when I was regular. They did frequently get my order wrong by forgetting things. I don't think it was attributable to this encoding scheme (one time the waiter tried to memorize the whole order and simply failed)

Pro: less likely to mixup orders since the order is encoded into the plate. Con: running out of condiment could be a show stopper.

They have at least two weeks worth in storage.

Waffle House running out of any particular ingredient should never happen, barring serious supply chain malfunction or mis-management.

I briefly worked at one before getting into IT and it was neat to learn how tightly controlled the operations of a restaurant can be. Glad I have those memories.

There's something absurdly comforting in the banality of this.

Indeed. But also a little disturbing, given that no matter how many choices for the customer this signalling system facilitates, they still get equally low quality food.

I was feeling the same way, there is probably some camaraderie that develops in the waffle house staff just around this unique shared language.

While I sort-of-love-it, it does seem very complicated for new starters.

I'm sure this system is great once you know it, but it is a high learning curve and I do struggle to imagine a world where ePOS with a ticket system doesn't work better (both for the 'caller' and for the chef).

I've learned similarly complex food signaling systems and the thing is that you're seeing dozens if not hundreds per shift, and training already takes a couple weeks for other reasons. So by the time you're on your own and needing to know it confidently you've had plenty of practice.

I suspect it forces out people quickly which may actually help keep better qualified workers. I've personally found the average Waffle House employee a cut above other places so maybe this is the reason.

Hooters does the same thing with various coloured toothpicks, plate papers and pickles

These folks don’t get paid enough

I don't know how common this is, but for me pickles (and their juice) trigger intense disgust and involuntary gagging. If pickles were on the cutting board or touched the knife, I will not be able to enjoy the sandwich. When ordering a sandwich I'll always ask for no pickles on the sandwich or the plate/take out container. It seems I'm an edge case this system doesn't anticipate, I wonder how they handle pickle-averse customers?

From what I've seen, your level of pickle sensitivity and hate is very uncommon, and based off how much they seem to cater their menus to people I do not expect they have a system in place to address it.

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