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Comment by mchanson | Hacker News Reader

I often find the definition of ultra processed difficult. I put pea protein powder in my smoothies. That is certainly ultra processed however it has good macro nutrients and is not empty calories.

I understand the concept of “empty calories”, but ultra processed seems like a blend of that and how the food was made.

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There's obviously nothing inherently evil about "processing". If you put some fruit in a blender you've made no significant changes to its nutritional value.

The terminology is so annoying because it's hopelessly vague to the layperson. The actual research I've seen generally finds that the problem with "ultra processed" commercial foods are the usual familiar villains: salt, sugar, saturated fat.

Having put fruit in a blender you are changing how it’ll get absorbed, because the blender did the breaking down versus your body. You probably changed how nature of the fiber in the fruit.

Also blending means no more chewing, aka less saliva to help breaking down things. Most blenders warm up the mix because yeah high speed, which means less vitamin as well. And there may be more aspects, I'm no nutritionist...

also means you eat a lot faster and therefore probably more

This is true. Also, when was the last time you sat down and ate five oranges? Processing changes what you eat. Oranges are pretty good for you, orange juice often is not.

I read something saying blending in industrial food production affects absorption into the body which is thought to cause some of tut negative effects. So yes, the industrial production methods are also implicated.

It's a great example of correlation vs causation.

"Processed" or "ultra-processed" foods are often unhealthy, but they're not inherently unhealthy. What matters more than anything is the specific ingredients in them, like how much salt/sugar has been used to alter their taste or keep them preserved.

Consider the goal of these things. It's not to be scientific. It's to lead people make healthier choices and to lead decision makes to guide for healthier outcomes. Most people don't read labels. They don't even read articles. They see headlines.

"Ultra processed" is headline friendly and can steer people away from things.

This is health marketing for the masses.

If 'healthier choices' isn't based on science, what is it based on?

Why should someone believe you if it isn't based on science?

Many people (myself included) read health headlines, read that everything is causing cancer, that everything is simultaneously bad/good for you, and just tune this out altogether.

I just rely on normal intuition 'maintain a healthy calorie budget and keep greasy foods to a reasonable level' and treat all other nutrition advice as superstition, hearsay, and noise.

This meme, that the average American is stupid and needs to be told what to do about everything, is patronizing and needs to die.

The average 50th percentile IQ person has a finely tuned bullshit detector. When they sense they're being lead by an author or speaker toward making a certain decision, or feeling a certain way about the set of facts surrounding a current event, it makes them lose trust in the speaker, writer, and the institution they represent.

People have everyday experience with this, for example the moment they realize the person in front of them is shamelessly trying to sell them a car, timeshare, etc. and likely does not have their best interests in mind. You immediately stop believing a word this person is saying. Contrast this with, say, the guy behind the counter at your favorite hardware store who you trust is trying to get you the right solution for your needs.

The problem is when the speaker is an SME in a public service role. Trust in media, government, scientists, the academy, is low for good reason and it's causing huge problems in American society.

Most people are, in fact, not stupid. If you educate them on the facts, don't project false confidence about subjective or uncertain things, and basically talk to them like adults, we will have a more educated society with way more trust and tolerance for evolving science.

There is this paper, "Ultra-Processed Diets Cause Excess Calorie Intake and Weight Gain: An Inpatient Randomized Controlled Trial of Ad Libitum Food Intake", Hall ea 2019 : https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S155041311...

They tried to control for all that, the same amount of sugar, fat, calories etc.

And yet people ate more of the ultra-processed food.

>Ultra-processed foods (…) are not modified foods but formulations made mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods and additives, with little if any intact Group 1 food.

https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/public-health-nutrit...

I'm sure "ultra processed" is a term concocted by the industry to cause a muddying of the waters leading to discussions of semantics over specifics.

Indeed... this term is about as useful as "chemical" or the general usage of the word "toxin". It can mean a lot of things and is generally ill-defined, but it somehow always manages to sound scary.

> certainly ultra processed

Pardon, but where's the ultra processing? Isn't pea protein just dried peas in a blender?

I figured ultra processed was reserved for things like ascorbic acid, pectin, and xanthan gum.

Most people buy pea protein isolate. This is a more complex product where the protein has actually been separated from the remainder of the peas.

(Not sure if it would qualify as ultra processed though.)

You're right on the isolate.. Just found this video showing how they're separating the starch and fiber from pea protein.

https://youtu.be/wbX_w0ZIunM

You’re literally pulverizing the peas. That’s pretty extreme processing compared to, say, steaming some veggies

But your mouth basically does the same thing?

Smashing, not grinding. Not nearly as fine. Also, chemistry of food is very complicated... even if we stipulate that it's getting basically powder-ized in either case, if there's head involved in the process at any point it will behave very differently if it's pulverized before or after. (Think grinding flour vs chewing bread). I'll admit I'm now curious if plain, normal flour meets the definition of 'ultra processed'.

Yes, but then you spend more time chewing. And maybe that causes you eat less.

> Pardon, but where's the ultra processing? Isn't pea protein just dried peas in a blender?

Obviously not. Protein meal contains 20 to 25% protein, while pea protein concentrates/isolates have more than 80% protein. For more information on the process required to reach such high levels of protein, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea_protein

> I figured ultra processed was reserved for things like ascorbic acid, pectin, and xanthan gum.

You could have chosen better examples. All those three things are naturally occurring in non-processed foods, two of them are not even digestible by humans (both pectin and xanthan gum are technically "soluble fiber"), and the other one is a water-soluble vitamin (i.e., good luck overdosing or suffering from chronic exposure from that).

Yes, pretty much. They're made by a process called fractionation which is basically a mill (a blender if you like) and then clever air classification and centrifuge so that the constituent parts get separated by weight.

Yup, for pea protein concentrates obtained by dry fractionation (arguably a slighly more complicated processing process than "just dried peas in a blender").

That's the weird thing about about this field, the definition for ultra processed they use is pretty arbitrary from (iirc) some Brazilian paper. And still, effects are found.

So it's really important what the mechanism is why e.g. it leads to higher calory intake.

I think it's something to do with mouth texture or chewiness that causes us to eat more of processed foods, but I've only read a small bit.

Off topic but I just switched to hemp protein. It contains omegas, and has a hugely positive ratio of potassium to sodium, whereas pea protein has no omegas and super high sodium (apparently to isolate pea protein it is washed in a salt brine). The drawback is that the protein per gram of powder is a bit lower.

A helpful framing I once got from a nutritionist: "processed" food exists on a spectrum. Could you make it at home, or at least conceive of how to make it at home? (i.e. a can of soup, a baked cracker); or would it require a lab and advanced chemistry?

The definition I've seen before is: If there are ingredients on the label that you cannot buy in a grocery store, it is ultra-processed.

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