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Comment by ryandrake | Hacker News Reader

I don’t get how you can make bicycling your only form of transportation, even if the bike travel infrastructure and parking is adequate. When I bicycle, even for a short amount of time like 15 minutes, I sweat, and end up a stinky wet mess at my destination. Especially in the summer. My shoes and pants get dirty from the road and my hair gets wet and messed up especially if it’s raining. So if I’m going anywhere with even a moderate expectation of personal hygiene, I need to 1. Make sure there is a shower at my destination, 2. Haul a change of clothes with me (necessitating a backpack or bag), 3. Hang on to my dirty sweaty clothes in that bag the whole time. Fine if I’m commuting to work where they have a shower and storage. What about going to a restaurant or business meeting or a museum or an appointment with a professional? I honestly don’t know but there are so many cities where people bike everywhere so there must be a solution.

EDIT: ok, ok, I guess e-bikes it is. Still there are cities like Copenhagen and Amsterdam where everyone bikes everywhere and they don’t all have e-bikes. Do they just bring multiple changes of clothes everywhere?

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A large part of that is cycling on roads with automobile traffic.

Dodging cars, taking gaps, sprinting at lights, constantly looking around... are all things that make you sweaty. Plus cars kick up a load of road grime and water (when it rains).

Comparing cycling on pleasant infrastructure to cycling on roads is a bit like comparing walking and running. They're similar activities, but the level of exertion is quite different!

In NL, they cycle with umbrellas. In Tokyo, rain ponchos are a common choice.

There's also this mentality in the anglo-sphere of commuting on a racing bike with a backpack. This choice is somewhat driven by the infrastructure, since you need to be fast and agile around traffic. However, in countries with developed cycle infrastructure, people tend to use upright bikes with baskets, racks and fenders. This makes one much less sweaty when riding!

For sure. I guess I’ve never bicycled anywhere where I wasn’t in constant fear for my life with cars whizzing past me at 45-55 miles per hour. The anxiety alone makes ya sweat!

> EDIT: ok, ok, I guess e-bikes it is. Still there are cities like Copenhagen and Amsterdam where everyone bikes everywhere and they don’t all have e-bikes. Do they just bring multiple changes of clothes everywhere?

These cities are almost 100% flat, it doesn't take much effort to bike in a leisure pace anywhere, you won't be sweating if you are riding at 12-15km/h. You don't need changes of clothes to bike as people do there.

I bike in Stockholm, in a longer route these days since I live in a house some 15km away from the city center, it is quite hilly and I ride a fixed gear bike so I do sweat, I do not carry multiple changes of clothes, I have my clothes for riding depending on the season (staples are a wind jacket, wool underlayers due to their good wicking for sweat), carry a small towel with me, clothes I'd like to wear when I arrive at my destination, and wet wipes. If I'm too sweaty I will wait a few minutes until I cool down, use the towel to dry the sweat and the wet wipes in case it's needed.

It takes almost no effort after you are used to the routine, like anything you just adapt to it and becomes the new normal.

The resistance you feel is just the fear of the unknown, it's absolutely doable even in places not as perfect for biking like Denmark, the Netherlands, Berlin, etc., in my case I just love biking and the added routine I might need after biking 15km is totally fine. Others will use an e-bike around here if total practicality is needed.

The answer is probably just a lot (most?) people don't sweat as much as you do. It's a solution that works for many but not all. There's also a huge uptake for ebikes, which remove a lot of the exertion component.

As an aside, when I started cycling I sweat a lot more than I do now. It is a mild form of exercise, after all. Once you get used to it, cycling at a leisurely pace takes less energy than walking.

I think the key here is mostly to go slow. Right now,if I'm bike commuting I need to keep up with cars or risk getting rear ended or tailgated or shouted at. Setting things up so you don't have to worry about cars while on your bike means you can bike at a more reasonable speed instead of 25mph.

Think beach cruiser bikes not guys in spandex on race bikes

Also infrequent cyclists are often overdressed. You don't need to get out the spandex, but if the weather permits dress so that you are slightly cold while standing still. That gives you the thermal budget to heat up from exercise without instantly sweating.

Be bold, start cold!

After biking for some months a 15min ride shouldn't get you too sweaty

Why should that be the case?

The amount of sweat is only correlated to the amount of heat generated.

Only way to counter sweating is to dress appropriately and/or ride slower.

Airflow drastically alters cooling.

The amount of sweat is only correlated to the amount of heat generated.

I’m no expert, but that’s demonstrably not true. Evidence being two fit cyclists riding the same route, and one is visibly more sweaty than the other.

People that exercise regularly sweat less for the same amount of effort than when they weren't exercising. I have no idea what the biological / thermodynamics explanation is, but it's a quite basic fact.

Cycling economy increases naturally with increased fitness. As with virtually all forms of fitness training. It along with many other factors is why someone can quadruple their possible power output with training. All without melting. Look up cycling economy.

Also how much you sweat is a trained response. This is why athletes do heat training before hot events. There is more to it than some oversimplified physics based equation. It’s a biological system.

All these things are much more significant when going from someone who basically never cycles or exercises, to someone who does. It is less significant in pros, so keep that in mind if you are looking at studies of “trained cyclists”. Law of diminishing returns.

> All these things are much more significant when going from someone who basically never cycles or exercises, to someone who does.

You could say that I do that every season(well, I walk all year round at least) and my observation is that there's maybe a short period of increased unnecessary movements that I do which produce more sweat, but after two weeks, when I relearn the right movements, it plateaus and sweating is just proportional to energy used - it's lower, but still there.

In any case I noticed that I would need to go frustratingly slow to be appropriately fresh for an office. Even at my leisurely pace of 15km/h I change my shirt when I get back from a ride, because it's simply uncomfortable otherwise.

Sweating is absolutely not a “trained” response.

I’ve always been an athlete from when I was a competitive athlete in my college days (cross-country running) but I’ve always sweated a lot more than average and it’s not correlated with my fitness. I’ve always been slim and fit and I’ve often noticed that I sweat a lot more than people whom I’m beating in races! That is, I can be fitter and faster than someone and still sweat more.

On the flip side, I am extremely cold resistant and when others are chilly and need to wear a sweater or coat, I don’t need it. My body just seems to run hotter than others, for better or worse.

It absolutely is.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9460081/

Adaptations include decreases in HR, internal body temperature, skin temperature, rating of perceived exertion (RPE), and sweat sodium and chloride concentrations, as well as increases in plasma volume and sweat rate.

Sweat rate. Sweat rate is a training adaptation. Thus we would say sweating is a trained response.

Yes, I have no doubt you are very sweaty. That doesn’t mean that sweatiness isn’t a trained response though.

Did you even read your own link? This says “increases in sweat rate” not decreases.

And if you read the study and look at the results, after the heat training the average “sweatiness” was higher, not lower.

The whole point of this debate was that you can’t train yourself to sweat less, and I am still right in that assertion.

After a few months of regular training, your fitness will invariably improve, even if that "training" is just cycling to/from work each day. The higher your fitness level, the less heat you generate for the same physical output. Lower heat generation requires lower heat dissipation, which requires less sweating.

Yeah this is absolutely not accurate, some people just sweat more and it’s not correlated with fitness.

I’ve noticed that I sweat a “lot” more than people who are much less fit than I am.

Yeah, I disagree. During the pandemic I did a year of heavy cycling, including a 525-mile trip over 7 days. While cycling got a lot easier, I didn't stop sweating.

My family is full of heavy sweaters, and I live in states where it gets into the 80s-90s in the summer. My girlfriend however seems to never sweat, even when pushing herself.

Admittedly, I struggle to maintain a "casual speed."

Best solution is of course “shower at the office”. I worked for a company about 1h cycling away, and Sofia, Bulgaria is a hilly city, so cycling would involve quite a lot of exertion.

After some experimenting I found that my condition would be acceptable if I just change my t-shirt when I arrive.

My role was just your average dev so grooming requirements are a bit less than customer facing roles.

Also its all about temp management. I’d ware clothes that can be easily removed mid-journey so I can manage my temperature. Airy exercise t-shirts can cool you so well that if you don’t strain yourself too much you can avoid sweating altogether.

> cycling would involve quite a lot of excretion.

I think you meant "exertion". I did giggle like a child though (very sorry).

thanks!

> shoes and pants get dirty from the road

Most bikes sold in the US are historically not sold or marketed for transportation, they’re aimed at fitness/sport users. So they don’t come with fenders that would keep your pants clean, and racks you could put your bag on.

To keep from getting sweaty you’ll need to intentionally ride slower, again US bikes are not designed for this. The classic Dutch bike has a much more relaxed and comfortable posture that helps remind you not to work too hard.

1. get fit

2. get an ebike

3. don't live that far away from everything (I do everything by bike, but all daily things are max. 15 min away

4. don't live in Mexico

5. don't race / take your time. Average (non-sporty) cyclist goes 15 kph, i.e your do not get more exhausted as you would be when walking

6. for me: do not wear a backpack (i.e bike bag or basket)

7. have proper equipment (i.e I have a poncho. I get a little wet in the rain though because it does get warm underneath)

So this is a real problem especially in hot climates like the US can be. My advice would be slow down your cycling speed to your appointment. I found myself having to keep reminding myself to slow down because my natural cycling speed generates a sheen of sweat. Of course you can open up on the way home.

This strategy along with suitable clothes will help for moderate climates. If you are heading out into 95 and up weather there will be sweat though.

I’ve also had the benefit of a shower at work which really changed the game, but that is a luxury.

I think there are a lot of suggestions already given like lower the pace, ebikes, bring a fresh shirt, there are rain clothes you can put over your clothes.

But it's also about your destination and what is expected. Most of my destinations are people I like to meet or places I like to be at. A fancy restaurant or business meeting doesn't happen that often. Have you seen people at museums ;)

The Netherlands and Denmark are generally not that hot. I also think Dutch working culture has been influenced by people cycling to work. Clothes that fit the weather are more accepted. There might also be some bias to what kind of work you do opposed to what type of work is actually happening. A lot of people do work that will make you sweat more over the day than a short bike ride.

For most day-to-day things you don't need to cycle longer than 15 minutes in most bike friendly cities. In addition to recommendation by others I would also add that for journeys significantly longer than 15 Minutes you can take public transport for part of it.

Interesting! I picked 15 minutes because that’s the shortest possible distance I could imagine having to go to do anything (yes I’m in the USA). Once in my life, very briefly, I managed to afford to live a 15 minute bike ride from my work, and I did it, but (like I said) with the sweaty consequences. Usually it’s 1-2 hours by car.

I realized part of the problem recently; if you can afford to live in a 15 minute bike city, you're also living in a 5 minute car city. (Or more precisely, if something is a 10 minute walk away, it's about a minute or two by car.)

Until you go from one car to zero, the car is a damn good temptation.

I just did a round trip to pick up something from the library, a mile away. Could have walked, but couldn't have walked and got back in time before my meeting.

An e-bike changes this math considerably.

You get:

1. Faster trip, so less time to sweat

2. Faster speed, so more cooling, so less sweating overall.

3. Less exertion, so less generated heat by body.

Although if you live in a hot AND humid climate, I'm afraid there's just not much you can do. There are physical limits after all.

If you ride at a reasonable pace and shift gears frequently to adapt to the terrain, you should never need to exert yourself so much that you'd break out in sweat. A gentle bike ride should feel pretty similar to a walk.

> Do they just bring multiple changes of clothes everywhere?

Worse: from an early age they dress considerably lighter than in other countries.

A friend of mine lived there for the first couple years of her life so she, ahem, adopted the tradition and now carries it over to the next generation with her two sons, who are essentially immune to cold already as by local standards they were always missing a layer or two.

Also 30°C in Amsterdam amounts to a massive heat wave, so there's little opportunity to sweat if you dress light enough.

It's quite cold a lot of the time in Northern Europe, and people who are cycling to commute there often really aren't going very fast so won't sweat much.

You can also get "moisture wicking" clothes, that might help with a certain amount of sweat.

There is quite a lot of e-bike use in Amsterdam and Copenhagen. Google "bakfiets" - it's a whole "suburban parents with a family size e-bike" cliche (but a good one!).

Re: Copenhagen + Amsterdam.

These cities are relatively flat, relatively cool (watch videos of cycling in Copenhagen and you'll see a lot of people in coats and hats), and you don't have to bike very far to get somewhere interesting. There's also the fact that there's a lot of bikes on the paths (which, for me, caused me to slow down considerably from my typical bike pace when I visited). This all combines to mean you aren't putting anymore effort in than a short walk: you just end up going a little farther in the same amount of time.

Re: the rest.

When I was a regular cycle commuter (in a Canadian city) I did pack a change of clothes, spare deodorant and/or wore a removable outer layer that resisted road gunk. Road gunk is _much worse_ on any route you share with cars. Dedicated bike paths tend to be quite clean. Paniers are far better than a backpack, since they sit on the bike frame, you barely notice the weight. But as other commenters noted: a little fitness goes a long way. After a year of commuting, my regular route wouldn't even cause me to break a sweat.

E-bikes solve this, they're already basically mandatory for cities with a lot of grade. Personally I run 100% of my errands on a jack rabbit e-bike [0] which isn't even really a bike (no pedals) but a sit down scooter.

[0] https://jackrabbit.bike/

> What about going to a restaurant or business meeting or a museum or an appointment with a professional?

Depends on the restaurant obviously. Client meetings and appointments obviously depends on the location. If they're coming to your office then you would probably have already showered if needed. If you have the kind of job where you need to go to other client locations to meet with them then obviously you want a car because you're going to be driving a lot across clients. I imagine such people have cars in Amsterdam as well. For museums, nobody gives a damn. I've never dressed up for a museum in my life.

In Copenhagen and Amsterdam, the people meeting clients probably choose their transport based on each day's needs. Several clients in the city centre? Bike, or even on foot. Spread around the suburbs? Car, or maybe bike+train if the offices are near stations. (More likely for office jobs, less likely if your clients are manufacturing/industry.)

It is rare for people visiting us to ask for a parking permit.

(Drinking alcohol with the clients in the evening? Then it can't be car.)

Ebike is a good solution. I ride 20 minutes to work and never show up sweaty. The breeze works better than AC to keep me cool even on 85F+ days.

I invested in a good rain jacked with helmet compatible hood and a pair of rain pants and I am able to ride in all but the heaviest of PNW rains.

I do end up nearly always carrying a pannier with me wherever I bike (usually to hold the extra layers I need while biking) but that has turned out to rarely ever be an issue.

I have been able to replace ~80% of my car trips the bike, it could be 99%+ if I were a little less lazy.

Cycling 15 km/h requires just as much power as walking.

I pack some backup clothes (undershirt, underwear, socks), they mostly stay in my bike bag because I rarely use them. If I do need them, I just go to the bathroom, then change back into the bike clothes for the ride home. If it's really hot, I might switch it up and put the office clothes in the bag from the start - meaning I know I'll need a change.

Really not that complicated.

Won't help on dirt and rain (and limited help on upwind and uphill) but using a low enough gear you should be able to stroll around with similar strain as walking. And you need to be able to accept a slightly slower speed, which is often challening, at least for me.

> I honestly don’t know but there are so many cities where people bike everywhere so there must be a solution.

It depends how tolerant you are, personally I consider a little sweat to be a fairly small thing in regard to the other hardships life will throw at you, and a very small price to pay to save thousands of euros of a lot of stress.

There is no magic bullet but make sure you eat clean and stay hydrated it helps with sweat smell, dress for the ride and not for the destination, a well ventilated outfit does wonder. I personally don't sweat much so it's ok, my gf gets more sweaty and it can definitely be annoying

That sounds like a fitness issue. Millions of people cycle everywhere in Netherlands, in regular clothes, without needing showers in between.

It's not a fitness issue. The netherlands is fairly flat and has a cooler climate than any major US city. It's just not possible to be pedaling up/down hills in any amount of heat/humidity and not get sweaty.

That is an excuse. There are many people in hilly cities that cycle. Not as many as in the Netherlands or in Denmark, but they exist. And even Norther Europe gets days of 30 °C (~90F), and we do not stop cycling, its rather the other way around. So just start cycling in winter, if you want to try.

Northern European climates are not comparable to even mid-atlantic US cities. Take a look at a comparison between Amsterdam and Washington DC. https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/51381~20957/Comparison-of....

Pay special attention to the "Chance of Muggy Conditions" chart.

As I said, just cycle in winter. Your chart says that it does not get muggy from November to April, i.e half of the year. And yes, I do not mind the cold, and do not need it flat, I live in Stockholm and not in Amsterdam.

I think you should come live for a year in DC and see what you think about the winters. Notice that the comparison also shows it snows quite a bit more, ~~and is on average colder during core winter months~~! Weather is just more of a "thing" for the average US city. And when you start by subtracting half the year for heat, at least a month for snow, more days for harsh freezing conditions (not uncommon to have some weeks in winter that dip to -10C) etc etc... (edit: forgot you lived in stockholm where it's quite cold, I admit)

The point is not that cycling is impossible but that it's attractiveness is highly variable depending on local/daily conditions, since you are exposed to the elements. Less consistency in conditions means the entire form of transportatin is percieved as unreliable.

I commute by bike in my US city, and the weather concerns are alleviated 90% of the time just by having the right clothing. If you have gym clothes, that's what you wear during hot/warm weather. If you have cold weather hiking clothes, that's what you wear during cold/cool weather. Pack a small towel and a change of clothes for your destination, and you're all set. It's actually easier to do this during the warm months because you wear fewer layers and the clothes aren't as bulky. I use a rack-mounted bag more often in winter to carry those extra layers.

The remaining 10% of the time is for just straight up unpleasant weather that catches you by surprise. For example, if I bike to work in the morning and there's a huge rainstorm when I would bike home in the afternoon. When that happens, I just leave my bike at the office and catch a bus home. Or Lyft if I'm feeling especially impatient.

Yes, of course cycling is most popular in the Netherlands because geography and climate are most ideal there. But the same is true about infrastructure. If it exists, any form of transportation becomes widely more popular. Just think of Oulu :)

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20231220-why-oulu-finland...

It is as possible as walking in the same place, unless we talk about some kind of super steep hill where would just push the bike.

Very likely issue here is that people who are used to cycle for sport only are not used to bike for transport. They don't do equivalent of walk, they do equivalent of run. So they get sweaty, because they race.

Okay - but Netherlands is not as sunny, hot, and swampy as Houston and Orlando in the Summer.

I've never biked anywhere that's super hot and humid and sunny like Orlando in the Summer. Theoretically, the wind from biking should help evaporate your sweat before you get "sweaty" - but it's got to be easier to get swamp ass in Houston than Amsterdam.

I think the climate would matter somewhat.

I’m in favor of cycling infrastructure in the US, but it’s important to remember that the latitude of the Netherlands (like most of the European cycling cities) is north of the entire continental US.

I’m in decent shape, but will sweat at a resting heart rate in a Southern US summer.

One solution is e-bikes which are getting better every year and will allow you to go quite far without breaking a sweat.

They're living in places where the weather is cool, so they're not getting sweaty on their bikes.

I think e-bikes are a good solution for this problem.

sweat is the least of concerns, and by biking regularly you get quickly fit and don't sweat too much

Could an eBike help?

skill issue i’m afraid, when you cycle a lot a 15min bike ride is like a 3min walk, and most of the time if the temp is high you’ll sweat regardless

in that case, get an electric bike :)

> What about going to a restaurant or business meeting or a museum or an appointment with a professional?

I also like to find my bicycle where I left it. Which is not an option in many cities.

> I honestly don’t know but there are so many cities where people bike everywhere so there must be a solution

People have less and less money to spend on a car and fuel/electricity. Many are using bicycles not by choice but because they're broke. And it shows when you see the kind of bicycle they ride.

My car is an extension of my house and although I'll take public transports once in a while (public transports are free in my country), there's no way I'll bicycle everywhere.

Add to that that I do actually bicycle with a MTB, from point A to point A, with a 5-digit $$$ bicycle and there's no way I could possibly enjoy riding a shittier bike. And due to the insecurity (thieving scums), there's no way I can leave my bicycle anywhere in the city (gone in 60 seconds would be an understatement).

Same for my neighbor: he'll do 50 kilometers+ a day on his bicycle, but from point A to point A, with a roadbike.

Don't get me started as to when I was living in a rural area, with the closest highway being a 45 minutes (car) drive: I'd rant about how practical bicycles are there.

I just don't get it and I don't think I can get along with people who wants to put us all on bicycles and I don't think people who want to get us all on bicycles could get along with me. And I'm fine with that.

> Many are using bicycles not by choice but because they're broke. And it shows when you see the kind of bicycle they ride.

I'd be careful to assume people's social/financial status based on the bicycle they ride. Where I'm from, you get the cheapest bike possible not because you cannot afford something else, but because eventually it'll get vandalized or stolen, so if you only spent 20 EUR on the bike, it won't hurt as much to replace it with another 20 EUR bike.

Nobody’s going to make you bike. What people want is the option to choose, which is not possible for safety reasons in many cities.

Personally I’d rather spend my money on more interesting things than car ownership and maintenance.

> I just don't get it and I don't think I can get along with people who wants to put us all on bicycles and I don't think people who want to get us all on bicycles could get along with me. And I'm fine with that.

You are creating a strawman though, people like me want urbanites/city dwellers to become cyclists because it's better for everyone living in a city.

If you live in a rural area where you need to go 10-20km to find a grocery store, yeah, it's not that practical to only rely on a bike. If you live in a dense-ish city where you can bike some 15 minutes to get to almost all of your daily needs, and with a 30 min ride you can get to 80% of your needs in a year then yeah, I will try to convince you that a bike is more practical for your day-to-day than driving the odd 3-4 km to get somewhere (and paying for parking, fuel, polluting the city, etc.), it's just stupid to drive this short if you don't really need it (e.g.: carrying big/heavy loads, being disabled, etc.).

It's odd to see this kind of overreaction to something that simply is better for your health, for the other residents of the city. It's odd to see how defensive car-centric people get by the suggestion that maybe more people cycling, and governments taking action to create infrastructure for it, will be overall better for a city. Even if you prefer to drive it'll be better for you.

Just don't create a strawman to distill your reactionary take, it always sounds like a whining child feeling their toy will be taken away... That's not the point.

> > I just don't get it and I don't think I can get along with people who wants to put us all on bicycles and I don't think people who want to get us all on bicycles could get along with me. And I'm fine with that.

> You are creating a strawman though, people like me want urbanites/city dwellers to become cyclists because it's better for everyone living in a city.

In my experience what people like the OP really mean by "I don't like that cyclist want to put us all on bikes", is that they want infrastructure to be catered for their car use (paid by the everyone), e.g. they say they can't use a bike because they (want to) live rural (rural infrastructure is heavily subsidised by city dwellers btw), but want to be able to drive into the city (despite city dwellers wanting less cars and more bikes). Thus they complain about "cyclist forcing everyone to bike".

I do have a quite nice (and growing) amount of personal assets, yet I bike everywhere on my now 17 year old bike. My grandpa still has his bike of 60 years (and grandmas of 55). Of course will a $10k bike more likely be stolen over a $100 bike. Though proper bike infrastructure also lessens that risk quite a bit. Or where you personally live is an international crime hotspot.

> Many are using bicycles not by choice but because they're broke. And it shows when you see the kind of bicycle they ride.

Maybe in your place.

In my place (a big city in Belgium) people just use whatever bike they have that works and fix it up from time to time, but as long as it rides few people care how it looks. Especially since less shiny bikes don't attract thieves as much (although this isn't a big problem here).

I use my bike because driving in traffic is longer and the trip to school with the kids and back home would take 20-30 minutes depending on traffic, while it takes almost exactly 15 minutes by bike (with the kids in a trailer).

I use one of two bikes depending on where I parked my car (which I use once or twice a week to go to places with bad public transit. Otherwise it's parked somewhere within a 10 minutes walk radius, wherever I found space) and one of them looks like I fished it out of the river, the paint is gone in many places, but it's lighter. The other looks nice but it's quite old and heavy steel so I tend to use it less.

I also use my bike (the heavy one, I figure if I want to do exercise, the whole point is to do some actual efforts) for 50 to 100 kilometre round-trips, although less so these days, it was nicer when I lived closer to the countryside between France and Belgium.

But the most important thing is I hate the noise of cars in the city. I want to be able to walk with someone and talk in the street without having to shout or stop while a loud vehicle passes. I don't care about cars themselves, after all they're on their streets doing their things, if they take twice as long as I do to get somewhere it's not my problem. I just want their noise to be gone.

In my experience the Venn diagram of people who bike as their main transportation source and people who care about hygiene and overall appearance doesn’t overlap very much at all.

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