Show HN: Return To Office Mandates suck | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: Return To Office Mandates suck

returntoofficemandate.com

38 pointswfois42 comments

Hi there, like many of you out here, I was affected by my company's return to office policy. When the policy came into effect, I lost a couple of hours every day commuting and my daily routine was disrupted. Imo, the company lost even more in terms of talent and in terms of trust from the employees.

I might sound like a spoilt brat complaining about my cushy dev job, but I think of my little project as a collective voice where we help improve the working culture of the world.

I made this site to track everything return to office and the silliness of it all. Thank you for checking out the site. It's a work in progress, do let me know if there are any suggestions etc

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The title of you post if "Return To Office Mandates suck". The website clearly states a lot of reasons while you might not like RTO. In the form, there are options to indicate that you like the RTO mandate: "FEELINGS ABOUT MANDATORY WFO", default answer; very angry face; possible options include, "fuck you", "crying", "lol", "grin" and at the bottom "happy face" and "angel" (whatever the difference).

What's the purpose of this data collection ? Please don't tell me that you will use the data collected this way as any kind of "analysis" on how people feel about RTO. It feels like you are trying to create an echo chamber for your own views on the issue, yet you are including options to give some illusion that you are willing to accept the opposite side views.

Since you asked for suggestions; you should either ackowledge that your goals are to gather testimonies of people who do not like RTO, and then it makes no sense to let them indicate they like it. Or you are actually trying to get objective data on the issue and you need to fully rework the website, how you advertise it, and work even harder to put your own bias aside.

Right now it feels we are going to get a post in 3 months explaining that according to your research 97% of the people dot not like RTO. And that's going to be presented with some nice graphs and analysis, possibly even opening the data, as if it was the guarantee of a faire and unbiased study.

My workplace has been steadily ratcheting it up -- it's super interesting watching the execs/board members push for something that seems pretty clearly against the company's best interests. I wonder if the shareholders will eventually bring forth a suit against them.

I've had a poke through their SEC filings -- without revealing too much, the quarterly spend on "facilities" is about 10% of what they spend on compensation. There's a hiring freeze, but they've committed to a long lease renewal with a significant office expansion plan.

My little theory is that they're personally invested in the local commercial real estate. Quite a few of the board members are involved with other companies in the same area, which seem to have similar RTO policies.

People who want to project power do that thing of "I don't care what reality is, things are what I say they are" and the cryptkeepers in charge here definitely have that vibe -- but that only works when you have actual power over things. Here, they're trying to browbeat a tsunami, and it's actually kind of pitiful to watch. I wish them the worst, from the bottom of my heart.

"It is amazing how these dump rich capitalists keep making very stupid decisions, while I'm very smart but poor and have to work them".

I hope the boots you lick taste good, at least. What an incredibly stupid way of framing your opposition to the idea.

I hope they taste like dog shit.

There is a dramatic, almost chasm-like, difference between "stupid" and rational.

Tactically it is a stupid decision. Remote work is by-and-large one of the biggest boons to an employee who would otherwise be jockeying for a house to start a family in a place that is too expensive. Studies have shown time and time again that even under threat of pay reduction employees will STILL choose remote work. The "stupid" capitalist pays them just enough to rent locally but not enough to buy. Companies that remain remote-only will likely absorb a large chunk of the best talent in the next decade. All of the middling and new talent will be forced to bend the knee. The actual bet here is that 200 middling engineers will outperform 100 of the best. When you look at the macroeconomics the conclusion is obvious. Those 200 middling engineers will likely be 50 local engineers and 150 foreigners.

However, it is a rational decision. These rich capitalists, in your words, are deeply invested in real estate. If they aren't, whoever invested in them is. Follow that chain long enough and you'll almost surely find Blackrock and Vanguard who, in my pet theory, is driving this movement. We aren't talking about Google/Facebook/Apple who have amazing self-owned beautiful campuses. We are talking about mandates from 100 person just-barely-not-a-startup companies.

All this movement did is show what kind of fraud the SV startup scene has been committing for the last two decades. Naturally, when outed, the fraudster panics.

> "It is amazing how these dump rich capitalists keep making very stupid decisions, while I'm very smart but poor and have to work them".

The bootlicker comment really sums up how I feel about this, but I'll comment anyway:

To glorify the rich is buying into a lie that you'll also become rich. And calling anyone on HN poor is a misnomer. Granted, I continued posting here when I was unable to find a job and had to take family loans to save me from ruin, but this audience is mostly educated and mostly white-collar. There are people on this board making far more than you who also don't want to return to the office. What a silly, trivial, small-minded comment.

I just started a new job that's hybrid. Based off my job search I would say the overwhelming majority of IT has gone hybrid. Generally, they want you in the office 2 to 3 days a week. They flex on which day you can work from home.

I find this to be a nice balance. My last job was full time remote, and I was there during the pandemic when they transitioned to that model, and I'd say we lost something. But it's hard to say what it was that we'd lost and certainly not easy to quantify it!

There are certainly advantages to bringing everybody together and there are advantages to being heads-down and getting stuff done - which is easier to do remotely. I think people are banking on hybrid to balance out these approaches. We'll see.

When I worked remote I lost my sanity for sure. I really need to have some human interaction in the workplace to be able to keep morale up and to not feel incredibly isolated just as a human being. I think remote work is unnatural.

On the flip side, I thrived during lockdown. Productivity & happiness went way up, I finally felt like I was getting enough "alone time," I still interacted frequently over Teams throughout the day and felt no craving for more "people time."

It's almost like people are different and there's no one size fits all approach, and we should stop being stupid and let the people who want to work remote do so, while providing meeting space for people who want to be in person. It feels like the world is dictated by Type-A, "I can only be productive & wrap my head around things if I'm face to face" people, when they're only 1 type of worker.

Also, I thrived and had to deal with way less low level racism. I've heard also less sexism from women who work remote. Being a voice is a better experience for me and levels the playing field.

I'm a mixed race (black), nonbinary butch lesbian. I definitely have had a workplace where people made cruel gay and trans jokes constantly and my boss was 100% sexist. That's not exactly my ideal workplace either and I did end up working from home as much as I could for that one. But I find it really problematic that you think it's better for minorities to just isolate themselves to protect themselves from these inevitable facts of life. Maybe if it was just racism that I was facing, and I knew through work from home I could spend more time around my black community, I would feel like you do. But as a queer person, I have little to no black community, I do not have close family connections. I do not have some strong childhood friendship group because they bullied me for being queer. My university experience was better but fucking destroyed by covid. Most people I knew left the country in 2020 and never came back. I find finding people who understand me near impossible, and so to keep my sanity, I need to just see human beings, just by default, passively at least.

Often, as a queer person, I feel my sense of isolation is only fully allieved by romantic relationships. When my gf broke up with me, I lost my will to live for a few weeks. So I went to the office every single day. I got out of my space, I spoke to some of the nice people there. I went to the pub after work and made some connections with colleagues around my age that helped me. If I was still at my previous more remote job, I think I would've stayed in bed, smoked weed until I was bordering on psychosis and lost my job. I don't know what you want from me.

Please drop your image that the only people that benefit from the office are tyrannical old white male middle managers.

I'm a middle aged Hispanic guy who lives in a very conservative state and works in tech. I have established my own community of friends and family. Work doesn't provide anything for me except a paycheck. I'm friendly at work and I keep in touch and consider some people I've worked with friends, but the majority of people I work with are just work acquaintances.

I remember being lonelier in my 20's, but I never really socialized at work. I socialized outside work with my family, or found places I enjoyed being with people I enjoyed being around. "The office" is an antiquated system that's unnecessary. America definitely needs more public spaces, but building your relationships around work is a recipe for disaster. It takes time to build a community, but it's worth it. I don't want to be around people who are forced to be around me, pretend the don't look down on me, sabotage me behind my back.

Remote work makes those people forget to discriminate in my experience, I can stand on my merits without that guy who does my job (but sucks) joking about how they could replace me with a sombrero. (actual IRL interaction.)

EDIT: spelling

I feel sorry for you that you live in the US. I don't. I've heard from colleagues from my (lovely) office that when they go to the US office the work culture feels so toxic. Sounds bad, mate.

I think you proved my point that WFH benefits older people and people with strong family units. I don't have any of this tying me down or supporting me, and if I lived in a hostile conservative area I would move because why would I want to be miserable about my surroundings.

I'm not sure what part of 'I don't have strong family or friendship units' that you don't understand. If you hadn't had a strong family behind you on your 20s, maybe you'd understand me too. I don't feel like people at work look down on me, again, when I was in a job like that, I left. It's as simple as that. I want a workplace where I actually like the people and people are sociable. It's a priority.

This weekend once again I had a terrible experience. I was distraught all weekend by my own. Today, I got properly washed and dressed, got out of my house and into the office, had some nice conversations, talked it through with a colleague who i'm actually close to during a smoke break, she gave me a hug, I ate the healthy subsidised food, bought some sleep supplements during lunch break, and it all helped me. Otherwise, I'd still be rolling around crying in my flat. What do you not get that just having SOMEWHERE to go during regular days is important to some of us. I honestly don't understand people that function without obligations like this.

I understand, but I've had the reverse experience where having somewhere to go meant I was shut out of the things my friends were doing and I was stuck masking all day. I felt like an automaton who barely spoke.

I urge you to find a community outside of work. Work to live, don't live to work.

Thanks. I definitely don't live to work. As I said, definitely not a type-A, workaholic who loves office surveillance. I barely care about work at all. But I do have to spend most of my life doing it. And what it provides to me is routine and security. The routine part is almost more important to me than the financial security, just because of how my brain works. As I said, without the imperative to be somewhere during (most, preferably not all) regular days, I find it hard to hold it together, especially when I still have to motivate myself to do something as pointless as work for a corporation.

So yeah, I don't live to work. I couldn't care less. But I find it hard to find community at all. I try. I fail. The certainty that there is at least the people in the office keeps me going. I will continue to try.

Good Luck, everyone has different needs and I hope yours are satisfied.

I am the exact opposite of a Type-A person. I know you think everyone who wants a return to the office is some tyrannical middle manager type, but I just get depressed if I don't have a place to go with familiar people every day. I don't give a shit about work and I don't care to work anywhere where managers think we need to be surveilled. I just don't want to be suicidal because I haven't spoken to a human in 5 days, and I only realise I haven't gone outside at about 4pm, at which point its often dark here in the UK.

And no, all office being remote with the option for people to come in doesn't work for me. That's what my last job is. You know whats worse than working from home? Going into the office to find nobody is there, anyone who is there you haven't seen for 6 months and have no rapport with, and you feel like you're in some sterile empty hall. I'm saying only a hybrid job where I knew people would not give up on going to the office fit for me. Even I will give up on going to the office if noone really goes and I feel no imperative to. It's just bad for me.

I do think managers trying to force people back to the office are tyrants. I maybe was a bit callous/harsh with what I said about RTO people. But you're making the point I was trying to communicate.

You know you prefer an office you can go to, and you don't like going days without seeing/talking to another human. That suicidal feeling you mentioned when you go too long without human contact? There is an inverse to that, where people like me feel burnt out, depressed, and "done" after too much (or sometimes even just a little) people time.

The people who want to return to an office should be allowed to, and should have a place to go. There are enough people who prefer working in an office that you'll get your human contact, and the people who want to be at home without all the people interaction should be given that option as well.

But the frustration you feel at the way I framed RTO people is the same frustration I feel when this sensible compromise is proposed, but isn't good enough for the RTO types. You prefer being around people throughout the week, I do not. There's room for both to work, but dictating I have to come to an office because you like seeing people is where the frustration comes from.

Bro even people like me don't turn up to the office if there aren't mandatory days cos nobody can be arsed to go to an office where there's noone there and they haven't built a relationship with their colleagues anyway. It doesn't fulfil the needs I have if it's not a social activity. I think there should be remote jobs and hybrid jobs and you should just choose to work somewhere remote and I should choose somewhere hybrid.

Agreed, to your last sentence. The problem is when a company goes remote during covid, advertises permissions as "remote," then rug pulls everyone randomly demanding "just 1 day a week," and then 2. I don't give an inch on this issue because it's taken a mile.

But I do agree that if you are hired somewhere that says it's remote or hybrid, you should be able to expect the job to match what it was described as. And in your case, you could find a hybrid job where people actually go in a couple times a week.

That's really all either of us want. If companies would stop playing games, we probably wouldn't have even had this discussion!

For that reason, mandating how anyone works is wrong, as long as the work is delivered in time, whatever works for you doesn’t mean it works for another, being home might drive you crazy while being at office drive others crazy, I think it’s a low IQ sign when someone wants to apply an XY on every one else, including other day-day tools like meetings and such.

Yep, you lot should stop freaking out that some companies don't want to be remote. You have the choice not to work there. We're all tech professionals here it's not like we're starving and unable to risk switching workplaces. Going into an office where there is a thriving community is not possible for me at a mostly remote job. There's nothing more depressing than an empty office building, and I would never choose to go into the office when I have no way of knowing when people will bother to come in.

One big issue with hybrid is that you lose optionality because you no longer can live far from the office:

- You can't live far away from the office

- You can't take some weeks/months to work from abroad

- You lose flexibility on your schedule when in the office

Of course no approach is perfect but I personally wouldn't say hybrid is a nice balance, it's better than going to the office every day but nowhere near as being 100% remote.

RTO sucks.

On the other hand, if a company never built a culture and processes around remote work, I can see how it would be a bad experience for both the employer and employees. And while many thrive remotely, there is a subset of people that are poor candidates for remote work or just can't stay disciplined enough.

> This globally recurring tread of return to the office

I think "trend" is the word best suited to this sentence.

That aside, my former employer ran a six week test where we came to the office twice a week. At the end of the six week period, they looked at the numbers and said wfh was now normal. They downsized and got a smaller office (we'd been talking about expansion before the pan). We basically only needed a place to store equipment and receive packages, so that was what it became.

My current employer does three days in-office and two days at home. But that's largely because my role requires access to equipment. I think other roles are fully wfh.

I don't get bean-counters who want to flex authority over employees who are just as productive when they aren't in office. Gotta let them have their little fiefdoms, I guess.

Im looking for another job. My team is not colocated to me but I'm forced to commute 3x a week just to scan my badge. its a weekly 120mi/200km commitment during lunch to least obstruct my schedule. their green initiatives are clearly transparent

Maybe the site already lists all the companies that force their employees to go back? As well shows how's it going like they said return but really no one has, they forced it and lost lots of employees and other interesting datapoints. A site that shows what companies if remote is important (very very important to me) are remote companies and celebrate them. Shame the ones that aren't :)

Do you mind if the data is used for targeting unionizing efforts? Great site, great work.

Previously, “RTO” was just known as “work”, and it wasn’t always great - with the commute and all. But the fact that they pay me made it easier.

I love how the poor have to work at cubicles.

RTO is the only thing that can save capitalism. Power must be restored to the executives. Owners of the world, unite!

Work from home is not great for everyone. Since going fully remote, I have noticed a drastic increase in mental health and substance abuse issues among coworkers. An office job provided structure and meaningful daily contact that is not replicated in 30 minute zoom calls. Companies can decide if they want their workers to be in-person or remote, and employees can decide if they want to work for them. Saying that return to office mandates are bad for all companies is just plain dumb.

Well, "meaningful" is relative. I don't disagree with your overall point necessarily, though I strongly prefer remote work myself.

Yeah. What about a free market, where everyone can start their own company and run it as they wish? If working from office is so horrible, the companies practicing it should quickly die out, and the remote-run companies should flourish. Remains to be seen.

I’m just not sure the net negatives outweigh the positives on this one.

I think the best thing to do would be let folks work how they want to work. And if there is an imposition to be had, it should be against folks who “require” others to go out of their way to go into an office, since their need is quite unimportant in the face of the needs of the many many others who see a quality of life decline from RTO. There are ways to bring routine and socialization back into your life that don’t revolve around work. They need to explore those avenues before we consider the vastly negative imposition of _requiring_ people to RTO for their sole benefit.

Perhaps supporting people's mental health ought not to be tied to having such a job. This issue exists as well for the unemployed and folks in sectors with a minimum of human contact, and we could probably do a lot of good for society in general if this was handled outside of that context.

Also, "Companies can do X and employees can decide if that works for them" is the basis of right-to-work, which is demonstrably Bad by just about any measure. I agree with the sentiment in principle, but it usually ends with some format of usury.

> I have noticed a drastic increase in mental health and substance abuse issues among coworkers.

This anecdata is not realized in the actual data. So we can disregard this.

> An office job provided structure and meaningful daily contact

Of all the types of contact I had when I was in an office "meaningful" would not describe it. I have meaningful contact being able to go to my gym at a time that allows me to cook and relax afterwards. I have meaningful contact at the coffee shop I'll occasionally work from. I have meaningful contact going for a walk in the park over lunch. My health has improved because I'm not forced to go to company mandated fun-lunches or skip the gym because someone dropped by my cube and told me I'm working late. I'm healthier because I'm not driven to near suicide by the 2-3 hours I lose every day commuting. Let's not even talk about the risk adjusted lifespan I have driving every day to work and back vs. working at home.

This concept of "company culture" being an employee benefit is the pinnacle of narcissism. Everything I do and say is recorded at work. Coworkers will almost certainly rat me out to HR if I'm too honest and dont toe the line. If anything, the office is arguably the least "safe" space I have in my life and under RTO I'm forced under contract to spend 8 hours there. No thanks.

> Saying that return to office mandates are bad for all companies is just plain dumb.

Spoken like a non-developer. My job as a staff engineer does not require me to be physically present. Grow up. This is a power grab by people who want to gaslight employees under threat of their job. Same with "cameras always on" policies and all the other bullshit. A bunch of tin-pots with a modicum of manufactured power using it to make others miserable. Nothing new under the sun.

You've made an incorrect assumption - I'm a developer. I work remotely. If my company had an office nearby I would gladly go.

yep, my mental health was awful when I was fully remote. Now I'm hybrid, I have really been able to increase my quality of life drastically. I'm so happy I found a mandatory hybrid job with a nice office culture. I was so worried that things would never stop being fully remote after covid. I could not have gone on living in a world like that. I think fully remote work is only long-term emotionally healthy for older people with families, and is stunting and isolating for younger people, especially those just starting out. People who love remote work seem to forget that maybe not everyone is mentally adjusted in the way they are. When I don't have an imperative to leave my house I slowly stop functioning. Just switching from remote to hybrid created instant improvement.

During that time there was also a pandemic that killed millions, a psychotic US President, and repeated waves of layoffs amongst tech workers.

> An office job provided structure and meaningful daily contact that is not replicated in 30 minute zoom calls.

I'm a very friendly guy, and always get along with my coworkers, but I go to work to work. For meaningful daily contact, I have my friends and family.

The European idea of going to work, working systematically for eight hours, and then going home to your real life seems much healthier to me.

Another way to see it is this: the cost of keeping a worker in an office is at least 10% of their salary. Another 5% of the workers day is spent commuting.

I personally would rather have a 10% raise and another 250 hours of spare time every year. I think if you phrased it that way, most people would agree.

My mental health _massively_ improved since going 100% remote, it's great I have a better work life balance, get more work done, am more social with friends and am able to switch off at the end of the day easier.

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