To Delay Death, Lift Weights (2017) | Hacker News Reader

To Delay Death, Lift Weights (2017)

outsideonline.com

50 pointsmakerdiety58 comments

It would be interesting to know what low strength people usually die from. One example where muscle mass would reign supreme would be in fall related deaths. Strength helps balance and helps prevent a fall in the first place. It also helps catch a fall. Strength training also strengthens bones so that would help you avoid a broken hip. Then if you do break a hip, your extra muscle mass and strength will deplete but not to the point where you're now bedridden. It's money in the bank.

could easily be a combination of many things like this (though a healthier heart probably overshadows most)

Bone strength is usually the weak link. When people "fall and break a hip", almost always it's actually their hip breaks first, which makes them fall.

This 1994 papers agree with you, but that's rarely mentioned medical advice. Of course, weak hips are prone to fracture whether that fracture is before or during a fall. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8206455/

I had no idea. That’s crazy.

So how does one preserve their bone strength into old age?

It's repeating what the GP said, but: exercise. Your bones are strengthened by use -- put them under mild stress by doing load-bearing exercise and they'll get stronger.

(Getting plenty of calcium and vitamin D probably helps, but there's a lot of argument about whether supplements actually work there.)

Lift heavy weights

weight bearing exercises and a proper diet.

I thought it would be in the article, but it only mentioned muscle mass. I believe lifting weights actually improves bone strength as well, but I don't have the references available that say that.

Lift heavy, eat enough protein, avoid coke/fanta/sprite/sugary drinks.

My aunt - a professor of musculoskeletal anatomy here in Australia - has developed a programme called Onero[1] specifically to deal with this question. I've done a bit of general IT work to help her recover from her tech partner going AWOL (classic startup story) and have watched people participate in it. It was weird at first to see old people - 80+ - in a gym, pumping iron. But they really got into it and from what I can glean from talking to my aunt the difference is pretty amazing.

The programme is starting to be picked up by practitioners globally - though it's more common here in Australia for the moment. There are online versions of the courses as well.

1. https://theboneclinic.com.au/onero/

Similarly, Sully over at Grey Steel has a gym and YouTube channel for lifters over 40:

https://youtu.be/-Zn_J8uN9LA?si=eMAiQlQINE-NTP0F

Strength training strengthens more than just muscles.

Bones adapt to the increased demand on them as well.

There are even cardiovascular benefits, though it doesn't replace aerobic exercise.

Got any data on that? All of my mons injuries were related to syncope or loss of coordination (shoulder/arm/hip) due to BP/stroke/dementia. For the hip the nurse watched her trip on a corner

I think falling is the prime example. All 4 of my grandparents were relatively healthy, no heart issues, mild elevated blood sugar not even pre-diabetic. Once they reached 70s/80s, all of them eventually fell while walking around, became wheelchair-bound or hospitalized and died after.

I wish we had good population metrics on this.

We do. This is a well-studied topic.

Of the recent deaths of my friends and family (a middle age thing) 90% of them were due to a heart attack no matter what other problems they had. Some seemingly had no health issues other than old age.

Of the people I know of who live well mid and old age all are active daily. I've gone from an active job to a sedentary office job so I am in mortal danger. I'm in the worst shape of my life at an age when that is very bad. Motivation is zero. I had gone to the gym for 20 years but for social and work reasons I an anxious to go back. I just do some light biking (20km to 30km x 2 or 3 days/wk) in the summer.

Even my Dad with terrible lung capacity was active; hockey games, light home repairs, fishing, grocery shopping, visiting family and friends. Even with his oxygen generator that barely got him there in the end. When he lost his mobility it was a quick downturn and he died only about six months later.

Be active daily at all costs.

And the best weight by far to lift - your own weight. Our bodies are naturally designed to work with this weight (unless you are obese), our joints and connective tissue is literally built to match it. If given movement becomes too easy, just slow it down, add repetitions, modify slightly and voila - challenge is back.

Sure, with weightlifting you strengthen everything including those joints, but only to certain amount, and road there is full of booby traps in form of variously crippling injuries. Look at powerlifters, how much joint protection they need just to perform, and look how they look retired (if they are actually still around, most have massive weight issues). People who consistently want to look like Arnold and actually execute it have often some deep childhood issues they are compensating with working out insanely (and taking various chemical crap that bites back later to stay on top).

Being lean, have decent power and endless stamina is literal heaven for everything you ever wanted to do - work, longevity, sex, confidence, happiness, women love it. Supplement it with moderate weights, for sure, even include them in workouts (ie in nature hiking with heavy backpacks with camping/climbing gear is amazing). Or weighted squats in very good form. But only once you built a very solid base in joints and connective tissue with easier stuff repeated a lot, for some time.

Patience as with everything else is the key to long term performance. And discussed longevity requires decades of consistent efforts.

Or do it like my grandparents, both lived till 95 - have a decent garden with various fruits and vegetables, take proper care of it daily. Just find something to do in winters too (ie ski touring). And no vices ala alcohol nor cigarettes.

Any advice on this that makes it not so boring?

Push ups, squats etc. I find so mentally unstimulating it feels like torture to my brain. Podcasts audiobooks etc only help so much. On the elliptical I can watch documentaries which makes it tolerable to enjoyable depending on my mood so I stick to the elliptical but I know I need resistance training (re: weight training) but I hate the boredom

Do pull ups. Much more fun and satisfying than push ups

I have limitations that preclude pull ups, unfortunately

How heavy are you going? It definitely isn't boring to do heavy squats.

It is. It’s mind numbing for me. I workout best when my body feels fluid with the machine (like I do on an elliptical, almost a “high” if you will)

I can never achieve this with weight training thus far, every time I try it.

Using weighted balls I’ve come semi close, the tactile feedback of the ball helps immensely to give me something to focus on, but I haven’t found a “full” workout with that as of yet, and supposedly I need heavier ones.

I like that I can do 45 minutes on an elliptical without even noticing because it’s repetitive by design. I need the same for strength training that lets me master a predefined set of things over and over

You could start with farmer's carry, if you have some free space to walk in the gym. Lift two equal weights on each side, using both hands and walk for 1 minute. Start with easy weights and increase gradually, over a period of days/weeks to a point, where lifting and walking for a minute makes you really exhausted and by the end of the minute you are ready to drop the weights (but don't!).

Edit: Just be careful of back being straight and firm, while doing it.

A very good question, I honestly don't have good enough generic answer - if you just can't force yourself to go to gym, find other sports that work for you. And anyway it shouldn't be about forcing, I enjoy the hormone kick and tiredness afterwards. The biggest mental hurdle is getting to the starting point, afterwards it goes automatically, no excuses.

Gym is anyway just a good synthetic replacement for actual workouts out there, ideally you should attack the goal of getting stronger and having more stamina from as many angles as possible.

For me, its: climbing, hiking/camping, alpinism, ski touring, paragliding (if you hike up 1000m with 12kg backpack, your quads and joints do notice, and sometimes you have to walk down too). Gym, either cardio, body weight or free weights is just supplement to that during rainy days, injuries etc.

Have a goal, and measure your progress towards that goal. If "get stronger" is enough, great; but if not, find some challenging activity you enjoy and want to improve at, and do the resistance training that will help you get better. Personally I find that much more motivating; just knowing there are health benefits never really did it for me.

Really really important to write down what you do. Progress is not always fast, but if you keep records, you'll see it, and that really helps with motivation.

IMO podcasts and such are not so good for strength training specifically, though for endurance work they're fine. You really want to give full intensity to getting through that last rep (with good form). You're training your ability to push through discomfort as much as you are your muscle's theoretical inherent strength.

I like to do HIIT with body weight. Admittedly, I've been off the wagon for awhile, but this site kept things interesting for me: https://darebee.com

I'm on the same boat, I tried every trick and it doesn't work. The two things that do help is whem I got to my maximum, lifting the weight was really hard, so I don't have too much leeway to think about anything else beside the movement or I'll injure myself. I ended up preferring music i already listened to many times just to cover the noise i don't listen to it.

The really boring part are the 90s breaks in between. I read a book during that time, at least I look forward something in between the reps.

Finally, going 6 times a week (3 cardio and 3 strength) has been the biggest help. With 4 I will say "i'm tired, I'll do it tomorrow". With 6 I say "tomorrow I have to do two sessions in one day if I don't go", so I don't want to skip. Combine that with the new mindset of "it's weird not going to the gym today" because I go so often, it's been really helpful. I also minimize the time spent in the gym: 1 hour for the strength training (30 minutes are spent resting, haven't found a way to speed that up), and 30 minutes HIIT training for cardio. Cardio is so short that doesn't bother me anymore and it's so intense that I don't have much time to feel bored.

I think pointing to powerlifters as an example to what could happen is unreasonable; you wouldn't recommend against people doing cardio on a bike regularly because of how competitive cyclists end up.

Very few people who do weight training regularly want to be powerlifters, or look like Arnold (which, by the way, are mutually exclusive). Discouraging people from doing weights and perpetuating stereotypes about people who go to the gym feels like a public disservice.

You didn't understand my point - I am not discouraging anything, I am saying weight lifting alone is not the answer to everything, not without good deep understanding of our bodies and what you actually want to achieve in exercises.

An advice I see seldom, yet often see folks struggling to start in the gym and giving up since gym bros think often binary and weights are some holy grail while everything else is subpar, or folks keep getting injuries in older age (you know, the age when exercise adds significantly to lifespan).

In addition - grip strength can be as important and it also builds brain strength. An amazing case of: Use it, or lose it. I've have two hand grips on my desk for this reason, every long refresh or boring meeting - I'm grip strengthening.

"grip strength is also an independent and significant predictor of all cause mortality. How strong your grip is, is going to tell us a ton about how you're going to live." https://zoe.com/learn/podcast-exercise-and-living-longer

Does just doing grip strength exercises cause people to live longer? Or is the correlation a result of the fact that activities that increase grip strength increase longevity (or are only able to be done by people who are very healthy)?

Inclined to side with you. Prior to specialized gripping exercises, I would think the people with the strongest grips developed it from hard effort: lifting weights, rock climbing, trade work, etc.

I think its the later - I have always understood grip strength to be an easy to measure proxy for your overall health; no harm in doing only grip strength exercises, but the better way is to lead a healthy and active life where your good grip strength is side effect of all the activities you do.

Watching TV all day on the couch drinking beer and potato chips - but with a grip exerciser in your hand is probably not going to give you much of a benefit.

Lots of confusion here. I really can't force myself to believe that training my grip strength with a small spring-loaded tool will extend my life and make my brain work better.

What I do know, though, is that my grip strength is fantastic, even though I don't squeeze any spring-loaded thingies. It's a side effect of doing regular deadlift exercises, as part of my strength training (roughly based on 5x5).

I also don't find it hard to believe that my strength training does bring benefits. Some are certain: life is much better when you're strong. Some are less certain, like living longer.

Any advice for good ones?

Grippers are only good if you want to get better at grippers. Grip strength is so specific and if you are talking real world transferability grippers are probably the worst. IMO if you want something that actually transfers and that you can still use at a desk and that offers some variety get one of these https://www.sportgrips.com/product/grip-twister/

Then for extensors get some rubber bands.

Source: I've been doing grip strength training for over a decade, my basement is completely filled with grip training tools. So, trust me bro. Honestly though, bouldering is probably the best, can't do that at a desk though.

Any idea if this helps with carpal tunnel syndrome?

If you haven't already tried, consider getting a steroid injection directly into your affected wrists by an orthopedist.

Had CTS many years ago, couldn't even hold a lightweight briefcase in my hand - and the pain was miserable - a single injection into the bad wrist and now 20 years later I am still pain free.

Not sure if it would work as well in all cases, but it was life-changing for me.

I would suggest looking towards equipment for "overcoming isometrics", which at its baseline is literally just self resistance and can be expanded with a few mechanisms to add some springiness and help your nervous system reach full activation, since it tends to shut off if it feels a truly immovable object. The hand gripper is just a very specific device of that type. There are also systems like the Iso Trainer or Bullworker that allow you to address more of the body and from more angles. This method of training emphasizes strength in the tendons, since there's almost no motion, and it doesn't have a simple numerical progression like weights, so it's mostly discarded by people seeking "big muscles" and "big lifts". But it has a lot of substance as a general strength training method.

An overview of some equipment in this category:

[0] https://youtu.be/komva2gCaWM?si=lPwMN2UalEqtz7l1

Grip strength can also help reduce high blood pressure. http://www.1mhealthtips.com/easy-handgrip-exercise-to-lower-...

Grip strength is a proxy for whole body strength.

Training grip strength for health benefits instead of engaging in strength training is like turning a dashboard green instead of fixing the underlying issues.

Yes, Peter Attia says this precise thing in his book 'Outlive' and also his podcasts. I stopped using the gripper after that.

I started lifting weights 1 year and 2 months back - whole body compound lifts i.e. deadlift, squats, bench press, overhead press - and results are phenomenal.

Before that had been doing body weight for a decade push ups/ pull ups/ planks, and for some reason thought it was sufficient for me. Only when I pivoted to these (lifting weights) after a chronic pain developed due to excessive running, did I feel the difference.

Overall lifting weights and counting protein intake seems to be life changing. The chronic pain also went away.

Whenever you see discussions about longevity online there are a lot of people who come off as either die-hard enthusiasts or self-proclaimed gurus. They'll sink a lot of time, money, and effort into the field.

Frequently though, whenever you see their profile picture, they are not fit. Why is that? Many of them clearly have the means, intelligence, and interest to know that a fit body is a great predictor of longevity and a good healthspan. Is it failure to execute on what they know they should do? Is there competing information steering them along a different path?

A good counterpoint to show someone who did stay fit is Jack LaLanne.

I would rather choose to live healthy than living longer. However, fact is, most of physical health deterioration starts from mental agony. Mental health is directly correlated to physical health. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9840511/)

I agree, so, lift weights? (Among other things...)

Yeah, as long as it keeps you sane.

I'd strongly recommend the Barbell Medicine podcast for those interested in evidence-based discussion about the role of strength training and exercise in general on health, longevity, and quality of life.

Just scroll through their episode list for anything that looks interesting or relevant.

I suggest that the older we get the more we NEED turkey and soy! https://scienmag.com/major-research-initiative-explores-how-...

I don't see the point of delaying it

How do I speed death up? How about an article on that?

Do you mean causing it to happen earlier or to cause it to happen faster after it begins?

Yes

How fast do you want it?

Speed:

A firearm is hard to beat, but it leaves a bit of a mess for whoever finds you.

An Exit Bag[1] is another option, though, you really got to have the willpower to follow through.

Slow:

Alcohol, tobacco, STDs, Meth, Fent, you know... All the fun stuff!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bag

It’s worth remembering here that correlation is not causation. An alternative explanation is (simply) that healthy people have stronger muscles, and are also less likely to die in the coming decade.

not going to lift weights then lol

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