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Comment by krschultz | Hacker News Reader

Fuck people who bitch about how expensive college is.

You know how much I paid for college? $0.

You know why I paid that? Because in high school I did a lot less than what you outlined above, but it was enough to get a scholarship to go to college. Six great schools looked at my application and offered me somewhere between a discounted rate and a full ride + stipend on top of that. And I was only 20th in my high school class by GPA rank.

If you think that you can match a college degree based solely on self-guided learning, then you should be smart enough to get a scholarship. It's the same damn process. You need the self discipline to stick with a program of learning and working, and you need the intelligence to learn without support. It's just a question of whether you realize that in high school or later in life.

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Did the failing mark on your "How to Win Friends and Influence People" book report bring down your GPA? ;-)

I had the same experience as you (college paid for via scholarships), but the scholarships available differ from school to school and community to community. So, not everyone has that as an option.

Hardly, I hand out copies of that book and truly believe it, but tongue-in-cheek doesn't come across well on the internet.

There's a limited number of scholarships to go around, and for those who can't get one, the cost will matter.

There are tons of undergrad programs that are less than $10k per year. Big state schools which will give you all the social experiences you need and some of the learning.

No HR department can interview people without a degree when there are so many people with degrees. A degree doesn't get you in the door, but is a minimum standard for just about any job.

It is too bad school is too expensive, but it doesn't matter.

"It is too bad school is too expensive, but it doesn't matter."

It does matter. The schools that are worth anything are too expensive (exceptions are there of course) while the cheap ones (read < 10K a year) are probably good for nothing. You are better off trying to get a job instead of attending those cheap schools.

University of Texas at Austin, University of Washington, and the Georgia Institute of Technology all have tuition of less than 10k and are ranked by US news as having CS programs better than Harvard. Several others have tuition less than 15k.

Cheap schools are not good for nothing, and price does not equal quality.

I went to a <10K state school where I learned the skills I needed to get my DIY education afterwards. Undergraduate school taught me how to learn. It taught me how to not be a slob and be productive.

The domain learning useful for my career came after.

It does matter. The schools that are worth anything are too expensive (exceptions are there of course) while the cheap ones (read < 10K a year) are probably good for nothing. You are better off trying to get a job instead of attending those cheap schools.

You are saying this: Ivy/Private School > No college > State School

That statement is absolutely ridiculous.

If the value of college is dominated by its http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) effect, a degree from the "wrong" school could send such a negative signal (you weren't wise enough to skip the degree even though you couldn't get admitted to the "right" school) that the innate value of the education you received doesn't make up for it. I hope this doesn't hold broadly, because I went to a state university. But I would think less of someone proudly displaying, e.g., a degree from a known http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mill, so it's at least possible for a degree to be worse than useless—the question is how mediocre a school would have to be.

I can't reply to prodigal_erik because the thread is too long, but the definition of diploma mill you provided is refering to non accredited universities.

I am talking about accredited universities, big state schools that are very affordable and provide fairly good educations.

I would rather attend one of those than no school at all.

I think it's a bit more these days, but I spent about $60k on my aerospace engineering degree from Georgia Tech. That's a decent amount of money, but if you're a self-starter with some programming chops, there is no reason you can't work during the summers and the year to save up $10-15k or so for school.

"No HR department can interview people without a degree when there are so many people with degrees. A degree doesn't get you in the door, but is a minimum standard for just about any job."

Nonsense. I have never been to college and I am currently responsible for the IT Security of a mid-sized health network. Not only was I hired without a degree but I've been promoted several times.

I also have no technical certifications, at various points in the past I had some but have let them lapse. Having a piece of paper may make things easier, but in the end it comes down to whether or not you can sell yourself to the organization.

And on the other end of the spectrum, I've been an "intern" with a 10,000+ employee nationwide corporation for over a solid, full-time year now and have 2 years part time experience prior to this position in the information security and network infrastructure world. Yet I'm waiting to be hired full time (or even part time) until I finish my degree. I've earned several awards for my work, and for one quarter actually turned the security department into a profit center based on information I provided about a vendor causing a major security breech (and the resulting lawsuit).

It's a great company, but my experience doesn't matter to them. Without a degree, I cannot be hired. Schools in my state don't even offer Security degrees, so it's not a matter of what the degree says, it's a matter of having the degree. I literally cannot do anything more to prove my value to the company. They don't care. It's about the paper.

"it doesn't matter"

In what sense? In a social-justice sense it seems like it does matter quite a bit. In a national-productivity sense "the college question" also matters quite a bit. In what sense doesn't $trillions of spending matter?

I think what krschultz is saying is that if you have the skills to be successful without a college degree, you also are likely to have the skills to get a scholarship to a decent school. They are a somewhat similar skillset and going to college allows you to check the checkbox on an application.

I understand that, but they did also say "Fuck people who bitch about how expensive college is."

Do you think Mark Cuban was a scholarly book-learner? Or that the top Latin student from your secondary school had a successful exit?

0 < correl(school chops, business chops) < 1

How many people in the U.S. do you think follow a career path like Mark Cuban's? Don't use an extreme outlier to make a general point.

I was using Cuban as an example because the book cover visible on the article is so jock-ish. In the above Cuban is supposed to represent that business-successful jock archetype.

Maybe the monolithic decision of university shouldn't be forced upon us when we're teen-aged and entrenched in dogma.

Maybe the people who think college is a waste of time should try to reach young people with that message. (career day at a nearby school? online forums young people hang out on?)

he's not allowed near schools...

I also paid $0 for college, but that's because I did my undergrad in Europe, and my US university entirely paid for my grad school costs :3

I didn't get a scholarship, I might have been offered one if I took the college aptitude tests, but I didn't feel like going to college at the end of high school - I was sick of high school as it was, nothing but cliques and kids picking on me. I hated it. I didn't want another 4 years of the same stuff. So, I probably wouldn't have gone to college even if I was offered a scholarship. However, now I am considering going to college, (many years later) and I doubt anyone would give me a scholarship now. I've become a successful programmer just from teaching myself.

Fuck people who bitch about people who bitch about how expensive college is

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