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So what is your proposed solution? I'd rather have a sociopath that is upfront about being one to me than figuring that fact out by myself.

Shunning those people from society seems like not an option to me, they are people after all.

I think normalizing sociopathic behaviour is something to be worried about, but I personally don't see that happening anywhere so I am unsure what your point is.

Let's genetically profile for it, and if there's a link, screen for embryos that don't have it. This would require a bit more technological advancement of course. But imagine, a world without sociopaths! It would be the biggest generational improvement in the world in history.

I feel the urge to bring up a slippery slope argument but it's so obvious that it makes itself.

This is definitely not it

It unironically and simply is it, albeit on hold for civilizations morally paralyzed by the trauma of WW2.

Funny joke! I get it!

> I think normalizing sociopathic behaviour is something to be worried about, but I personally don't see that happening anywhere so I am unsure what your point is.

The normalization of sociopathic behavior is pretty clear to see in politics and celebrity culture. If you don't see it you have had your eyes willfully closed to it for 10+ yrs.

Maybe you have or are currently engaged in some of these behaviors and you "can't see" them because it would damage your ego's view of yourself as a good person who deserves the success they have experienced.

> Shunning those people from society seems like not an option to me, they are people after all

This is effectively what happens to the victims of the sociopaths. They are driven out from the margins. The way I read this is "sociopaths can do whatever they want, but when others complain they are the problem".

I cannot stress how wrong that last statement is. So much suffering and therapy to recover from people who behaved this way. People at the top. Bosses. Managers.

People who were supposed to be looking out for the group and were not.

> This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally.

> Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible.

I find this interesting as it relates to the autism spectrum... there is pretty universal resistance to accommodating / understanding the difficulties people face. It seems like a really uphill battle to get people who benefit from their toxicity to voluntarily take a "more difficult" route than they otherwise can.

I suggest that we don't need to do anything with the APSD folks, what we need to do is normalize the idea that their behavior is abusive and support folks who are structurally disadvantaged via their behaviors.

If enough of regular society gets tired of their shit they will take corrective action... until their behavior "looks bad" to others they have no incentive to cooperate.

Fully concur and I think you describe better what I mean by isolate

The idea of isolating those people is that we actively reject abusive narcissistic behavior with no qualifications. That means it’s a one strike you’re out rule socially for toxic behavior

> actively reject abusive narcissistic behavior with no qualifications.

There is an inherently difficult task in this. To combat manipulators, we must ourselves engage in manipulation of others whether we like it or not. Depending on how skillful the ASPD person is, trying to call them out on their behavior may actually simply be "outing" yourself to a group that has no interest in hearing what your saying.

This can be INCREDIBLY stressful in work or school settings where removing yourself from the social situation is impossible. Eventually the only way to "win" is to walk away, and in doing so at times cut yourself off from social groups. This just allows the ASPD person to tar your name and further manipulate others to isolate you. "Living your best life is the best revenge" yeah sure but it's hard to do this with less of a social group... it doesn't feel good to lose friends even if the reason you are "losing" them is a choice to not tolerate their behavior.

I said this in another post, but the real challenge is convincing general society that the awful behavior of psychopaths and sociopaths is in fact bad. That not having or even making an attempt to practice empathy does in fact make you a bad person.

The cheerleaders of the sociopaths have been duped, manipulated and controlled into submission by people who have no regard for their wellbeing. In my experience most people are unable to accept this reality. The ones who at least can accept part of it, or agree and have seen the unfairness are the type of people NT or ND that are worth interacting with and need to be seen as advocates and beacons of hope.

> This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally

I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here. If this is a result of deep childhood trauma, in what way is it self propelled?

> Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible.

This seems pretty horrific to me. Assuming ASPD exists on a spectrum, and assuming it’s possible to treat it or at least manage it, it seems like the absolute worst option is to isolate people, the realities of which would almost certainly mean grouping people with these traits together.

Furthermore, if indeed trauma is the cause, it seems even more horrific to categorically discard people who have undergone this kind of hardship through no fault of their own.

I’m not saying people who cause harm to others should get a free pass. But what you’re describing seems untenable from a moral/ethical standpoint, to say nothing of the practical implications.

I’d make a strong argument that the vast majority of the world’s ills are a result of narcissists being in charge of most of the organizations worldwide

You seem to have in mind some poor beaten down person struggling to survive

Instead these are the people I’m talking about:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/13/tim-gurner-u...

Basically every banker, vc, public company CEO, dictatorial district manager, slave driving dispatcher, cold calling scammer etc….

Clearly there are people who cause harm. That is not what I'm reacting to.

I'm pushing against the ideas that:

1. This is somehow "self-directed" (which again makes no sense in the context of acknowledging childhood trauma)

2. Every manifestation of this trait leads to great harm (leaving no room for a spectrum or treatment/management)

3. We should "identify and isolate" people with this trait

What does 3 even entail in your mind? How would this play out practically speaking?

If you’re not actively working on stopping narcissistic behavior - even if it is your instinct - you are actively continuing to choose narcissistic behavior

#2 is unequivocally true - it also doesn’t matter if it’s a spectrum - neither negligent manslaughter nor mass murder are acceptable

There is no quarter for that behavior

incredibly tiresome and stupid trend if it exists

So what would you tell a "smart sociopath" to do? Someone who wants to live and pursue their own happiness without diminishing that of others?

Should they just cease to exist? Retreat somewhere they can't hurt others and live apart from society because society has no place for their disability? Or is it possible to fit in and be useful even if you're neuro divergent?

I genuinely don’t know because there’s no rehabilitation structure that the medical system has identified as useful

Low IQ sociopaths are typically institutionalized or are homeless of some sort

High IQ sociopaths tend to be managers or intermediaries that do not break laws but exploit social graciousness and live in the minutae or vagaries

So my answer is: get them out of your org or life as quickly as possible and don’t look back.

I’m trying to create a world where acting like a narcissist is effectively impossible - the world we have created promotes narcissistic behavior

And if it is my life?

I've got a lonely mountain in the woods, way out with few neighbors. me and my hounds can hunt and not bother nobody.

I find it difficult for numerous reasons to interact with people in social situations, not least being that people smell tasty. My awareness of this fact is something that people pick up on. it snowballs.

It'd be nice if I could contribute to society but there's not that many ways I've found, and i've mostly given up trying. now i settle for Socratic snark.

Fully embracing of one’s truest self is arguably enlightenment

Maybe don't encourage the person that says people smell tasty to do that

At least not allow them to buy social networks or run for president.

some of the biggest names in history were almost certainly sociopaths. And they were sometimes quite a positive net force. Just about everyone can be put to productive use in the right place, i'm not sure we need to isolate (?) anyone.

I agree that people should be given the opportunity for their natural gifts being used effectively.

I do NOT think "I'm a sociopath, sorry that doesn't bother me" is ever an acceptable resolution to the damage, pain and suffering they cause.

If you help 100 but you have to destroy 5 to get there, was it worth it? I do not think people deserve the benefit of the doubt to make this ethical call. The problem with sociopaths is they HAVE NO ETHICS OR MORALS.

You cannot "teach them to feel"... it's like trying to teach a starfish to speak. The only thing you can do is give them negative consequences to their actions. If their actions worked in the past they will repeat them. If those are negative behaviors, they don't see / care that they had to "step on some toes this time".... it simply becomes that toe stepping is now a normal point along an ever-escalating path of social violence and disregard for others.

The whole "we can't pathologies it because the sociopath doesn't think they have a problem" point is the main issue for me. If someone was smoking in an enclosed room... and others asked them to stop it would be cut and dry. But because the person is being socially manipulative instead of breathing toxic carcinogens it's acceptable? Bad words ok, bad oxygen BAD! Why is this so hard to understand that the bad social behavior is JUST AS TOXIC.

I completely reject this. Socially manipulative behavior is wrong and destructive. I don't care how bad your childhood was your sociopathic manipulation is not justified in any way.

sometimes (maybe even most of the time) socially manipulative behavior is destructive. but surely not all the time. for example, it might enable you to build a world leading ai company

Is this the sama alt account?

> it might enable you to build a world leading ai company

Sure I had to ruin a few careers, but look at all the shareholder value I created.

There is a level of whitewashing, gaslighting or to put it very gently "less than truthful accounting" of what actual success takes in the whole "gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette" argument.

It's a choice, not a necessity and people need to stop acting like their hand was forced to make unnecessary or unpopular decisions. It's not illegal to be a shitty person, but you can't just Dj Khalid yourself out of backlash by proclaiming "that ain't me / no I didn't" and expecting the people around you to agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDkmelexPYM

Sociopaths are important. There are lots of cases where no having an emotional response can be extremely valuable - emergency response, front line armed combat, extreme sports, executive leadership, the list goes on. Sociopaths are an important ingredient in the human soup, they just need the right conditions to be useful. All minds can be used productively, if you apply them correctly.