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Comment by lordlicorice | Hacker News Reader

It's hard to overstate the value of a university education... Why are you so vehement? Never went to college?

In Switzerland, which traditionally has seen a low rate in college degrees, and has relied on its apprenticeship system for a long time, we have seen an explosion in new college titles with the bologna reform.

You want to be a janitor? Congratulations, you can now get a master in "facility management". Teaching special needs children? You better get started on that degree! You want to be a librarian? Well, what about getting a degree in "information management"?

You got a degree in communications and have freelanced for a couple of years as a copy writer? What you gonna do? Ah right, you start to teach "corporate PR" at a university. Demand is that high that I could probably start teaching shit like Java, which I don't even know, in a heart beat. Without having any pedagogic qualities whatsoever.

We live in a day and age where everybody wants a slice of that big fat cake. Everyone is entitled to 10k a month. Everybody wants a designer apartment, a BMW. Every year, a new smartphone, vacations in the Maldives. Living the dream. On top of that, costs are rising across the board, mandatory health insurance is killing everyone. Prices are inflating. So what you gonna do? Ah, right, you get a degree, it doesn't even matter which one. Shit, three years ago my mom got a degree (she was a Kindergarten teacher). She is 53 now.

I really don't know how this could last. Maybe it can last for a small country like Switzerland, but I have a very bad feeling. A lot of the people will one day wake up and realize that just because the studied something, they're not going to earn 200k a year, even not 10 years down the road, yet they already live a lifestyle that assumes this to be true.

edit: My girl friend proof reads master theses for people. You wouldn't believe the shit she has to read and correct. Without outside help, many people would fail miserably. If you pay enough you will get your degree in one form or another. And that is precisely what is going on.

To be fair, library science is a field which many people dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to, often through some pretty rigorous undergraduate work. The professional accreditation is usually required for scholarly posts. 'Information science' is another thing entirely (though if that's your point, then, well... OK).

Similarly, at least in much of the US, teaching special needs teachers requires extra certification on top of a normal teacher's license. Without all kinds of extra classes on the various psychological and physical disorders that they deal with in their classrooms, the extra classes seem pretty justified.

Of course you need extra certification for teaching special needs. That's not the point. My question is, do you need a college degree for it?

I used this example because it relates to my mother, who recently got a master in this field. First of all, I'm proud of how my mother pulled that off at that age, while still working at her old job!

That said, the courses were largely theoretical mixed with a minuscule amount of practical studies. How many of the graduates will be able to pursue an academic career in this field after this degree? Maybe 1% (Note, this number is pure guesswork). The rest will actually end up assisting kindergarten teachers with their "disorderly" children.

In many cases, they should function as a buffer, protecting the child from overzealous kindergarten teachers who want to get rid of the troublemakers asap. This is important because a lot of developmental "deficiencies" are not there forever or can be mitigated. I digress. From my point of view, the actual theoretical work was frankly substandard. I don't think it has to do with me applying the standards of "hard science" to a "soft field". No, simply put, those professors didn't know that much to begin with and neither did many of the students.

The purpose of a University Degree (even a post graduate one) has never been to allow an academic career. It has always been the case that these degrees are necessary but not sufficient for an academic career but in the vast majority of cases Masters and Ph.D's go off and do other things instead - like practice in their field. In terms of educational psychology there is a very active and inquisitive community of research developing a number of strands of theory. I don't know very much about it at all, but some of what I have seen with respect to cognition, learning and development is impressive. Some is less so - but all of the people who I have met who are working on this agreed and wanted to change that, which I view as healthy.

As an aside if you were to (honestly) think about almost all fields of inquiry (maths may get a pass, possibly) then I think that you would have to agree with the statement "those professors didn't know that much to begin with and neither did many of the students". We are pretty ignorant about more or less everything when you look closely.

I think you misunderstand me. I didn't use this phrase in a philosophical way. I'm talking about professors teaching statistics and not knowing the difference between the median and the mean. I'm talking about that level of incompetence.

Imagine a course on compiler design where the professor doesn't know what top-down parsing and lexical analysis is. I'm certain that you would call that class a failure, or not?

Of course that class would be worthless. Not all (and in my experience, almost no) classes, however, are like that when one selects a college which has a quality program for the degree of interest. Furthermore, I would go so far as to lay much of the blame for a poor education on the student who fails to select a good school for their degree.

I recently saw a TV show about employment problems college graduates had. One person interviewed had a master's degree. The show was extolling the virtues of a program to assist these people in finding jobs, and a big part of their help was showing people how to write a resume.

I was astonished that someone with a master's degree would need help putting together a resume. Something is terribly wrong.

I have a 4 year degree and I think it's hard to understate its value. I wish I'd spent that 4 years doing different things... I almost certainly would have learned more (and the things I learned would have been more useful). And it wouldn't have cost $120k.

That experience isn't applicable to everyone. Mine invaluable and cost less than 15k.

College is what you make of it.

The cost of a college education is an overstatement of its value.

How many recent grads outside of engineering do you know? Now how many of them are gainfully employed?

Now how much did they pay for school and how much pay and experience did they miss out on by not working for the time they were in school?

I just went through the post graduate job cycle along with a huge batch of my peers and any of us will be the first to tell you that college is broke. The only reason I am employed is because of projects I put together myself, online, outside of the scope of a university education.

If you are looking to meet girls and learn how to drink to excess by all means college is a great place to do it. Otherwise college education in the liberal arts is a complete waste.

That's not exactly true. On average with the current unemployment I think you are correct, but the value of an ivy league degree is still many multiples its cost because it gets into the good ol' boys club.

Most people do not graduate with an Ive League degree.

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