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Comment by corytheboyd | Hacker News Reader

This is going to be a shit show. I don’t even really know where I stand. On one hand, we have to acknowledge that an adversarial government has massively succeeded in installing a botnet in our population— even if that wasn’t the initial intent of ByteDance, it’s effectively true now. On the other hand, you can’t stop people from installing spyware, donating money to fraudster politicians, surrendering themselves to cult leaders, etc. without invoking freedom of speech concerns (rightfully so). Pretty interesting situation, in a morbid way, to live through. I have no idea what’s going to happen.

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It’s going to pass Congress, signed into law. Then a federal judge will issue a preliminary injunction blocking it on first amendment grounds just like what happened both times with the Montana ban in 2023 and trumps executive order in 2020

This feels mostly right. Although, it may not make it past the senate, and it might not get signed if it goes by the president. Especially since he's campaigning on TikTok.

What amazes me is how people's view in these threads are for a ban. For a counter point, the EFF thinks congress should not ban apps[0]

[0] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/congress-should-give-u...

Biden said he would sign it.

And then presumably smacked down in the courts for an obvious 1A violation.

Is there any legal reason they think surely this one is constitutional?

That's what confuses me. Surely they know it likely won't survive the courts. So maybe they are banning it to win points with voters, but it doesn't seem like something that would be popular with the voters. So I'm left wondering why there's so much motivation in Congress to do this.

Who are the people that want it? Lets put aside the people that don't want it.

I can think of the following:

1. American tech companies

2. AIPAC

3. "The Deep State"

4. Maybe "bleeding heart American boomers"?

Is this a large enough group to push bills through? Seems like it.

The reason we put aside people who don't want it is because to push back against a bill requires at least an equal amount of effort that it took to get it going, usually more (see right to repair legislation, fight over DMCA provisions etc.). So unless you believe the people that don't want it are really more powerful than all of the above it makes sense why its going through.

This seems like we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with the next thing that pops up (perhaps an even more nefarious or nebulously owned app).

Why would we not create better data privacy laws and/or ban the sale/transfer of PII to enemy countries if that's the problem we're trying to solve?

Because that is not the really the whole problem we are trying to solve. At root of the TikTok problem is the fact that a nation like China is not playing on a level playing field in our Free Market. A free market works when all the participants are playing on a level playing field. TikTok is not because China as a country does not believe or follow free market principles. As such to further their national goals they will happily bend and break all of our rules with no real way for us to prevent or even detect it.

You can't treat Chinese companies the same way as US companies or even most European countries. They won't play by the rules. You have to treat them differently.

The experiment we started in the 90's to try to export Free Market to the world was interesting but the data shows that it doesn't actually work in Autocratic countries. It's time to stop pretending like it produces good outcomes overall.

This bill doesn't even address that. If you want to ban Chinese owned companies because they ban ours, then present that. This is 1 company being targeted, with the potential for maybe some more later. That leaves all the rest operating as normal.

To be honest, I still don't see the issue here. TikTok is tying into existing APIs that any app can also use. There is nothing special there other than the user's data may end up in the Chinese government's hands (but... again, TikTok isn't special there).

I think we really need to think about the problem we're trying to solve here carefully, because saying "you can't watch these types of videos because reasons" is the slippery slope of all slippery slopes.

ETA: I do agree that TikTok is probably a bad thing overall, realistically it could be used to subtly social engineer the entire US population by controlling the content people see. But I don't think just outright banning TikTok is the answer. But didn't Facebook also do the same thing in the election? What are the ramifications for something like Youtube which tailors your recommended videos based on your history (you watch one Joe Rogan clip and now it starts to show right wing/conspiracy videos).

Not an expert at all, but does freedom of speech hold for foreigners/foreign entities?

Apart from the fact that to me an app is not speech, but that's an entirely different matter.

No, but the First amendment covers Americans' right to receive information, even foreign propaganda.

Isn't this different in that it's not blocking TikTok but instead forcing the parent to sell the American division? There's plenty of precedent for that succeeding (including relatively recently where a Chinese company was forced to end plans for an IPO and sell Grindr). This is unlikely to be blocked on First Amendment grounds simply because they're not blocking speech, just forcing an ownership change (I am definitely not a lawyer though so I could be wrong).

We're all clear on that the ultimate outcome depends on which lobbyists pay better, right?

Why are pre-existing rules around foreign ownership of media not tossed by a judge then?

Why is it worse for me to have Tiktok installed on my phone than Google Chrome or Facebook?

It’s not worse for you personally. The US government can request and use warrants for information collected by all of those entities.

The US cannot request information on Chinese citizens in China because US companies are restricted from operating in China. They don’t have any significant data.

On the other hand China now has a very valuable and large presence in tiktok here in the US and can access any collected information it wants on Chinese citizens in the US and any other user. I imagine it doesn’t take a warrant either but I’m unfamiliar with their protocols.

So it’s likely not worse for you personally, especially if you’re a typical American who is unsupportive of their government and its foreign policy.

Because only spying from American companies is allowed. /s

In all seriousness though, it isn't. People are generally simply trying to fit in, so hating on anything China is viewed as good and everyone sticks to it.

We know because of Snowden how the US government has access to all (most likely way more) of the same data they are now worried China has access to.

Because TikTok can be used as a weapon by China. Democracies have a weakness - enemies can influence the population and therefore the government. Russia does this quite effectively in my opinion (one example is Slovakia).

Social media can and is already being used as a weapon by internal actors against democracy.

Social media of US owned companies was already used as a weapon and still is. Perhaps instead of this legislation we should clearly lay out the regulations that all social media companies need to adhere too.

For the average citizen, probably not, but imagine you are a celebrity, politician, government contractor, tech CEO/employee with access to IP. It's not that difficult to hash out someone's algorithm to get enough of a psychological profile on the person to initiate a detailed social engineering campaign.

Can you expand on what you mean by "installing a botnet"?

As a term of art, a botnet refers to a collection of computing devices that can be controlled remotely. I am not aware of any such capability in TikTok itself. Presumably they could attempt to offer a new version of TikTok that allowed arbitrary remote execution or one-time behavior, but this would need to get past Apple's app review process and would be subject to pretty immediate rollback.

Like if they wanted to use the install base of TikTok to perform a DDoS against an adversary, that would pretty much be a one-shot deal, after which it would be shut down.

Unless you're using botnet in a different sense, in which case this is irrelevant but I would recommend using a different word in this case ("propaganda engine" maybe) to avoid carrying along the connotations.

They're using the word botnet as an analogy. You have to read the whole sentence "installing a botnet in our population".

In that case I downgrade my assessment of this threat from "minor IT threat" to "nonsensical word salad". The idea that the CCP has a network of Manchurian Candidates waiting to do their bidding is ridiculous.

The reason why TikTok is able to spy and botnet on Americans is because we have no effective data privacy law. This is deliberate because the CIA and NSA buy shittons of user data from adtech data brokers to do an end run around the 4th Amendment.

Stopping TikTok without gutting 1A would be very easy: just copypaste GDPR into local law and make sure we have someone enforcing it. The problem is that the US government likes it's spying and Congress isn't interested in reigning them in.

It's no worse that what Facebook or Twitter does (or has done). I would prefer to have a plurality of options and not be limited to apps that are owned by countries the US deems "allies".

But Tiktok is much worse for US citizens:

- Facebook+Twitter are US-based entities and have to follow US laws and regulations in a much more strict way than Tiktok

- They are not controlled by a politically-motivated adversarial government

You are also conflating apps "from a country" vs apps "under a country's gvmt control". I think most here would agree "apps from a plurality of countries" is a good goal to strive for, while "apps under a dictatorship's gvmt control" is not.

TikTok has to adhere to the exact same laws as Facebook and Twitter, foreign ownership doesn't change that.

Adversarial to whom? Not me, I'm far more concerned about the US government who in this case is directly limiting my choices as a US citizen.

TikTok is run out of the United States and adheres to the same laws as Twitter and Facebook. Its CEO, Shou Chew, was just at a hearing in front of Congress last month.

TikTok also claimed the data couldn’t be viewed in China and then it got exposed that the data was being viewed in China by bytedance.

Sooooooo no it doesn’t follow the same laws an its singaporean ceos claim of no links to China are his word only.

As an example, do you think a US citizen personal data is as secure from requests from the CCP in e.g. Facebook as it is in Tiktok? That TikTok executives are as liable to US laws and prosecution as Facebook execs?

>That TikTok executives are as liable to US laws and prosecution as Facebook execs?

They absolutely are - again, TikTok is an American company with American employees who can be held liable if TikTok breaks the law - e.g. Shou Chew. The problem for the government is that TikTok hasn't broken any laws.

This is a completely irrational argument, rooted solely in xenophobic appeals, that can be trivially dismissed by inverting the premise: Do Chinese citizens have more to fear from state control and monitoring of domestic social media services or those owned by companies outside China?

Those are not equivalent as I hint in my last paragraph, different countries and gvmt influence do have different risk factors. You can e.g. criticize the US gvmt in a US-based app with no consequences. Good luck doing that in China (that = criticizing the CCP on a Chinese-based app while living in China).

> You can e.g. criticize the US gvmt in a US-based app with no consequences

Oh really? Try that with your police department and see how it works out for you.

https://hellgatenyc.com/nypd-warrantless-subpoena-copwatcher...

Actually it might be the other way round. Chinese will not care if you critisize US govt in private messages, but US platform might actually report you to FBI.

They have more to fear from apps under the Chinese government's control. How does that dismiss the parent's claim?

On the other hand, a citizen should be more scared of his own govt rather than foreign govt because foreign govt won't arrest him. So for an American TikTok is probably less threat than Facebook or Twitter.

I don't even know how you reach that kind of conclusion from that fact. It's not even strictly true. If I travel to China or Russia for a trip there is absolutely nothing stopping them from arresting me. It's only true if you never travel to that foreign country.

In the case of Russia they can do worse than imprison you. Just ask any number of Russia defectors who were killed on on Western soil. This is a very poorly thought out take.

I don’t think they were talking about traveling to Russia or China, they’re talking about living in the US. The vast majority of people will not travel to China or Russsia.

For instance if you discuss doing something illegal like getting an abortion in the US, only the US government really cares about that. Whether China knows is irrelevant.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/12/1117092169/nebraska-cops-used...

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