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throw0101d

The NYPD actually has 'international offices':

* https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nypd-stationed-oversea...

* https://archive.is/ZOYiw / https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/nyregion/terrorism-nypd-i...

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I’m not sure how I feel about the logistics of this.

On the one hand, municipality to municipality (Antwerp to NYC) makes sense since both will have similar challenges in law enforcement activities.

On the other hand, this seems to be a channel that bypasses the Feds, who are ultimately the ones with the National Security purview, and most/all foreign threats to NYC will pass through the Feds jurisdiction (border control, customs, coast guard etc)

> most/all foreign threats to NYC will pass through the Feds jurisdiction (border control, customs, coast guard etc)

After 9/11, it seems fair for New York to want to take anti-terrorism into its own hands, even if that duplicates certain federal functions. (I'm not arguing it's effective. Just that it makes sense for the city to not entirely trust the Feds.)

Does it? Why does the NYPD have an office in Tel Aviv for example?

> Why does the NYPD have an office in Tel Aviv for example?

Presumably to coördinate intelligence? (I'm guesing.)

If you don't trust the Feds, your options are to partner or duplicate that capability in house. Partnering seems the cheaper option.

foreign intelligence is outside the purview of a domestic municipal police department. the US does not allow foreign municipalities to install police departments on US soil.

> foreign intelligence is outside the purview of a domestic municipal police department

Demonstrably, not the NYPD's.

> US does not allow foreign municipalities to install police departments on US soil

Sure. But those foreign countries allowed them. And again, nobody is granting the NYPD extraterritorial policing powers. They're there to collaborate on intelligence.

>> foreign intelligence is outside the purview of a domestic municipal police department

> Demonstrably, not the NYPD's.

Is it demonstrable? Allow me to skeptical until New York's Finest crack a case that the NSA, CIA, and FBI can't handle.

This looks like a cushy assignment for some people with union pull.

> Is it demonstrable? Allow me to skeptical until New York's Finest crack a case that the NSA, CIA, and FBI can't handle.

It's demonstrable that foreign intelligence is within the NYPD's purview given they're doing it. No claims were made about efficacy.

Also, I don't think the NYPD aims to crack cases the Feds can't. It's more about directing resources towards areas they believe the Fed's aren't monitoring effectively or won't commit the resources they believe it deserves. If something were picked up, the NYPD would loop in the Feds.

>It's demonstrable that foreign intelligence is within the NYPD's purview given they're doing it. No claims were made about efficacy.

No. If an animal control officer starts delivering mail, that doesn’t mean mail delivery is now part of the Department of Fish and Game.

There is a terms for this: a bureaucratic overreach, wasteful government spending, a distraction.

What do you think a city cop can even do in a foreign country? What resource does the NYPD even have?? Who is going to say, “I can’t talk the local cops, or the local intelligence agency, nor can I tell the Americans directly, but maybe i can tell some foreign country’s local cop! But I can’t just tell them directly. If only this foreign country’s local police had an office here!”

An NYPD cop has less training and less resources than someone working for a federal intelligence agency. That’s just the truth. It’s a post-9/11 grift founded by former police commissioner, convicted felon, and embezzler, Bernie Kerik.

That’s what it is. It’s obvious, and it was obvious almost 23 years ago. Come on! The NYPD Israeli office isn’t even in the Israeli capital. It’s in a beach resort!

The NYPD has had a Joint Terrorism Task Force with the FBI since 1980.

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/joint-terrorism-ta...

And not what we're talking about. Not even relevant.

You want an actual relevant link? Here you go!

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/nyregion/terrorism-nypd-i...

>Other law enforcement and intelligence agencies, particularly the F.B.I. and C.I.A., have opposed the department’s overseas deployment. Mr. Kelly was criticized for sharing information about terror attacks in London in 2005 and Mumbai in 2008. Federal officials have also complained about the police “freelancing” their own terrorism investigations.

What are these "terrorism" investigations? Jewelry store robberies.

>But Chief Galati said the mission of the program had shifted over time, and these days his officers were investigating other crimes. “As it evolved from terrorism, we started to see more and more criminal cases coming up,” Chief Galati said. He cited an instance where some of the $800,000 worth of watches taken in a December 2017 gunpoint robbery from the A. Lange & Söhne boutique on Madison Avenue were tracked down to a pawnshop in Amman, Jordan. “The world is a small place,” Chief Galati said.

Exactly what coordination of intelligence is required? To me this would be like my local utility needing to have an anti-nuclear proliferation Taskforce with another utility from a different country...

They don't?!

They can freely engage in 4A breaches outside US soil. The Israeli panopticon is for sale to interested parties.

I guess the real question that is not openly posed is whether NYPD has mandate do that before we even get to the part as to whether it is cost-effective, warranted or even desirable. Sheriff of my podunk lil town doesn't run work with Italy's podunk town mayor for example.

Ah yes, coordinating intelligence half way across the planet with the same country that legalises its IT companies selling illegal tracking of political and ethnic targets.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_Project_(investigati...

They have a subway system in Tel Aviv. I'm sure they will be happy to have NYPD patrolling it, keeping it safe. /s

You see things like this and wonder how that money escapes scrutiny when everything else is debated endlessly.

That doesn't really make sense, will the NYPD start patrolling airports in Europe and flights to the US?

> will the NYPD start patrolling airports in Europe and flights to the US?

To my knowledge, the NYPD doesn't patrol outside its borders. The international offices are for coördinating intelligence.

I was surprised to see US border control at Toronto Pearson but I suppose it makes sense to screen passengers on this side given the proximity of Toronto to a US workforce, and it would alleviate US airports to receive Canadian traffic as a pseudo-domestic arrival (I assume this is what happened when I flew YYZ->DFW)

They do this in a number of other places that have lots of flights to the US.

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/preclearance

> Today, CBP has more than 600 officers and agriculture specialists stationed at 15 Preclearance locations in 6 countries: Dublin and Shannon in Ireland; Aruba; Bermuda; Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates; Nassau in the Bahamas; and Calgary, Toronto, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, Victoria, and Winnipeg in Canada.

Not just the US. UK passport control going from France to England by ferry is on the French side of the channel.

And vice versa.

The French Border Police are quite different in attitude to the UK Border Force.

It's not just Canada, there are several countries in this program: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/preclearance

the other reason is that if canadian traffic can come into the US as domestic pre-cleared, then travelers are free to transfer within the US much more easily. this makes things much easier for places that do not have direct connections to Canadian airports.

(in the US, even if transiting to another country you are required to clear US customs.)

It allows Canadian flights to go to (US) domestic airports, including those without active customs.

I keep hearing (from abroad) about the "militarisation of the police" in the US. Unless the NYPD took this as far as SAM batteries, what could they do against another 9/11, given the original four planes didn't take off from NY state let alone city?

> unless the NYPD took this as far as SAM batteries, what could they do against another 9/11

Notify the Feds.

(Though I guess we can shoot down planes now? [1])

[1] https://nationalpost.com/news/nypd-able-to-shoot-down-planes...

The only thing anyone can do against another 9/11 is what we've already done. Reinforced cockpit doors.

All the rest is just bullshit and security theater (Which NYC is exceedingly good at.)

The NYPD's budget in FY 2024 is 5.3 *BILLION* dollars[0]

This is more than total military expenditure of Romania.[1]

A $115 million of this 5.3 billion was used to settle lawsuits last year.[2]

[0] https://council.nyc.gov/budget/wp-content/uploads/sites/54/2...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/29/nyregion/nypd-police-misc...

The NYPD's budget is also a significant underestimate, since the NYPD typically blows through hundreds of millions of dollars of additional overtime funding each year[1]. It would be accurate to say that the NYPD's budget is both gigantic and under-accounted.

[1]: https://comptroller.nyc.gov/newsroom/nypd-overspending-on-ov...

NYPD has more resources than most countries' militaries

> NYPD has more resources than most countries' militaries

It has a more complicated remit than most countries' militaries. (For example, the NYPD functions as the UN's ersatz security force.)

Get rid of the UN and the statement would likely still be true.

Their budget is roughly equivalent to 2020 Ukraine's.

> Get rid of the UN and the statement would likely still be true

Get rid of the UN and the NYPD can be smaller.

And it's not just the UN. New York is a second diplomatic capital. So you're also replicating D.C.'s consular security force. This is before we get to it being a financial and cultural centre, to say nothing of the largest city in America and a precedented target of international terrorism.

> budget is roughly equivalent to 2020 Ukraine's

New York City's economy is double the size of Ukraine's pre-war economy [1][2]. Were it a country, it would sit between Turkey and Indonesia, eclipsing even the economy of Saudi Arabia [3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City#Gross...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine#Main_econom...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

The fact remains that single cities in the US - NY is hardly the only example - have budgets, manpower, and weaponry that exceed much of the world's nation states.

Chicago and LA are roughly #60 on the list of the world's militaries.

> fact remains that single cities in the US - NY is hardly the only example - have budgets, manpower, and weaponry that exceed much of the world's nation states

And I'm contextualising it. Given its population and economy, the NYPD should have the resources of similarly-sized nation-states.

> we're the third highest in percent of GDP spent on cops

America is definitely over-policed. I'm not sure New York is.

> I'm not sure New York is.

By $ it seems almost certainly; by capability perhaps not.

> Given its population and economy, the NYPD should have the resources of similarly-sized nation-states.

I just can't say I agree with this statement. NYC itself being part of an even bigger nation-state should mean that a number of the responsibilities that fall under the purview of your example similarly sized nation-states militaries/establishments are likewise handled by NYC's parent state, allowing for efficiencies that free up resources better spent on other programs. On its face the duplication of effort on several levels seems wasteful.

E: So my thesis is that I agree that NYC should have the resources of similarly-sized nation-states, however they could be better apportioned.

I agree. I also can't see a New York politician dismantling that infrastructure, given the downsides that would result were a plot to get through. (Irrespective of whether the NYPD's international offices would have helped.)

why are you comparing NYC police force to Ukraine military rather than Ukraine police force? The fact that anyone sees the roles as comparable is a lot of the problem.

> why are you comparing NYC police force to Ukraine military rather than Ukraine police force?

I never cited either figure? I'm comparing the sizes of GDPs.

I'm not disagreeing with how ridiculous it is, but when you have their commissioners making statements confirming that they can shoot down aircraft, we've moved past the normal definition of a police force: https://nationalpost.com/news/nypd-able-to-shoot-down-planes...

Cops over-bully people but the actual policing is severely lacking. There's a problem with funding and allocation of said funds. So that apparent over-policedness is a result of under-policying. :/

Assuming that's true for the sake of argument, it shouldn't be that surprising given that NYC is more-populous than the long tail of "most" countries as well. Having 8.5 million people puts it near Austria, Switzerland, Hong Kong [0], or Serbia.

[0] Yeah yeah, "one country two systems", whatever, it's still a relevant comparison.

NYC has a higher GDP than most countries. So what?

> The NYPD actually has 'international offices':

I wonder whether the media is going to write hysterical propaganda pieces about this, like they did with chinese 'international offices'.

With the media, it's always accuse others of what you are doing.

Not sure what you consider "hysterical propaganda", but this is a thing that has been widely, and critically, covered in the media for decades.

Isn't a Chinese international office called a consulate? Why would it come across as strange that they would have them?

They are accused and indeed 2 charged with running essentially outposts for the ccp gestapo to spy on citizens and former citizens living abroad and critics.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-are-chinas-allege...

Its not hysteria at all.

> like they did with chinese 'international offices'

The NYPD's international offices do not have policing powers. They can't arrest people. They can't search or seize suspects. They're there with the full knowledge and coöperation of their hosts.

The Chinese police departments were exercising police powers on foreign soil without the host countries' permission. Night and day.

Why do you write 'cooperation' with an umlaut?

In English words it's a diaeresis.

Probably a diaeresis, a diacritic which indicates that two vowels aren't to be read as a digraph or diphthong. It's fancy and pretentious, and frequently seen in New Yorker articles.

I went through a phase of this because it made sense and I didn’t realize that it wasn’t standard English.

It is standard English, just somewhat antiquated at this point. Still, you see it quite a bit with "naïve".

> Why do you write 'cooperation' with an umlaut?

I grew up speaking French, English and a variant of German and have trouble not reading the double-o as a long vowel. After that autocorrect picked up on it and it doesn't bother me enough to change it.

Of course they do. They're the military for the country of New York City. There's also an intelligence bureau with overseas offices too. They regularly conduct undercover buys at gun shops in foreign nations like Ohio and Virginia. Personally I hope that they'll sign peace treaties with these other places someday. Too much hate in the world.

> They're the military for the country of New York City.

no, there is a lot of law and history to make those laws.. that specifically and in great detail, separate the roles, responsibilities, oversight, legal powers and funding, for obvious reasons.

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