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Comment by looping8 | Hacker News Reader

Perhaps it is because it is a USA thing, but I do not understand the limits they talk about in the article. These Amish cannot use electricity... but they can use solar power? Why is regular electricity in their faith worse than the same energy harnessed via solar power? What is the difference from their point of view?

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I think the key thing to remember is that they aren't trying to find loopholes or focused on the letter of the law with these decisions.

The rules they have are for practical reasons (whether you agree or disagree with them). It isn't as important to them whether it is perfectly consistent with the letter of the law as whether it fits with the purpose of the rule in the first place.

Which is what? Not being dependent on an electrical grid?

I think you are more or less correct with regards to electricity but the rule applies more broadly to technology. Obviously, the Amish use wheels and other tools. The problem for them (and which I think a great many people would agree) is when technology ceases to serve us and we (society) become indentured to the technology. Consider all these "phone-free" movements, limited screen time, and social media detoxes. In this light, the Amish seem very much enlightened that they take many years to deliberate whether a technology is an overall positive or detriment. Going back to the use of electricity. I think probably a huge part of a grid that works at nighttime is that it definitely changes society in the sense that nightlife is all of a sudden possible. You can debate whether or not it's a positive impact to society but the impact is inarguable. People will fall on different sides of that debate.

> The problem for them (and which I think a great many people would agree) is when technology ceases to serve us and we (society) become indentured to the technology.

This is a very good book on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technopoly.

It has three kinds of relationships a culture can have to technology:

tool-using culture: the culture is dominant, tools are used to solve problems and are sued to serve the culture, not attack it.

technocracy: tools attack and change the culture, but the culture still has some force to it.

technopoly: the tools are dominant, and all of culture and humanity must submit to them and their needs. A "totalitarian technocracy."

The Amish are a tool-using culture. General western society is a technocracy or technopoly.

Which is contrasted with strict Jewish communities that take the opposite stance — the letter is what matters and there's a certain joy in finding loopholes.

Automatic elevators, timers, an odd definition of inside, pre-torn toilet paper it's all fascinating and clever.

A very interesting example of this is the eruv in Golder's Green in North London[1] which is a thin wire which apparently converts outside areas into a private space, allowing observant orthodox Jews to do things on the Sabbath they would not otherwise do. There are proposals for a couple more of these in North London.

As someone who is not religious at all I find it fascinating.

[1] https://www.thejc.com/news/community/new-golders-green-eruv-...

There's also an eruv that contains nearly all of Manhattan: http://eruv.nyc/

I personally think this has entered the realm of absurdity, but there's admittedly a certain charm to it.

These are very common in places with a lot of Jews (e.g. the U.S. and Israel).

> Which is contrasted with strict Jewish communities that take the opposite stance — the letter is what matters and there's a certain joy in finding loopholes.

I think there is still something in common with the Amish approach, in that whether a theoretically possible loophole is allowed in practice often comes down to rabbinical judgement over what the practical consequences would be.

And, just like different Amish groups have different rules, different subgroups within Orthodox Judaism differ over the set of "loopholes" permitted – e.g. some Hasidic dynasties are much stricter about certain areas of halacha than others

The Amish view of technology is a bit more nuanced than "modern technology bad". Generally, technology needs to have a legitimate purpose for the community in order to be adopted. So a grid connection would be bad as it's a connection to the outside world, and electricity on tap would encourage vices like television. But battery power, or solar power, where the purpose is simply to power your tools to make your work more efficient is acceptable. Were people to start hooking up smartphones to the solar panels and posting videos on TikTok, the opinion about the technology might change.

If you squint, solar-charged e-bikes are just removing a few middlemen. The sun grows the grass, the horses eat the grass, the horses convert solar energy into motive power.

From what little I know about the topic, the Amish are careful to only allow the change that doesn't threaten their culture. So they might have no problem with renewable energy (they have been using wind to pump water for a long time), but they might have a problem with connecting to the regular electrical grid and becoming dependent on it.

It’s not electricity they care about it’s the grid and their community becoming dependent on outsiders.

They don't like to be in debt or use credit. They don't like billing plans where you use a service now and pay for it later. They don't like being bound by contracts. Back when you couldn't get a cellphone without a contract, they didn't use cellphones. When prepaid smartphones came out, they sold like hotcakes in Amish country. They don't like to be billed for using the power grid, but owning your own solar panels is kosher.

I'm speculating here, but utility electricity involves a continuous billing relationship and dependence on an entity that most certainly does not share their values.

It’s the wires, the devil comes through the wires … or something to do with the physical connection at least

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