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Comment by drtgh | Hacker News Reader

It is forbidden to use Chlorpyrifos in the EU, but in Morocco it's used. Recently, imports of olives contaminated with high levels of this chemical have been detected, but they have entered into the EU.

Oftopic but related, In Morocco, too, strawberries are irrigated with sewage water, and several times this year consignments of strawberries contaminated with hepatitis virus have been detected, but unfortunately they have also entered the EU.

The point is that if health is at risk, then it should be banned at each of its sources, importation included.

Morocco is preparing a major import hub through the Canary Islands, which is expected to "un-label" the source of products, I guess.

Is aware the EU about this?

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> Is aware the EU about this?

Yes, of course the EU is aware of this. Health and Food regulations apply to the products grown inside the EU. There may be partial import restrictions on GMO products and hormone-boosted meat, but other food products are generally allowed in.

This is even more true with organic products, that are subjected to stringent norms and checks in the EU, but absolutely no checks when coming from outside the EU.

So when buying organic bananas, from say, Africa, the probability of them actually not being organic is close to 1. Organic olive oil from Turkey? Well, let's say you can be happy if it is olive oil at all. Honey from China? Hmm.. Well.. Let's say that with 150'000 tons exported a year, their counterfeiting labs are better funded and equipped than the fraud-detection labs on the EU side.

So, if you want a quality product with a relative certainty you're not being defrauded (or worse, poisoned), you buy European. Anything else? You're on your own.

> which is expected to "un-label" the source of products

That is not legal. But, of course, fraud exists everywhere, unfortunately.

The problem is that it's not always that easy to buy European.

At least in Spain, it's common to see strawberries with unmarked origin or, even worse, "Origin: Spain" but it happens to be a Spanish company that brings them from Morocco and only does the packaging.

(BTW, not sure if each of these things is legal or not. But the fact is that they happen. I would be happy with actually enforced laws that mandated specifying the actual origin of everything).

Or "contains _ of EU and non-EU origin" (which I always interpret to mean probably 100% non-EU, but I wish they would at least say which countries)

> which I always interpret to mean probably 100% non-EU

They still need some of the product to come from the EU to be able to claim "EU", but if they don't go through the effort to write on the packaging which parts come from where, the product is possibly mostly non-EU, yes.. :-P

And you can put your money on it that they have lobbied hard so as not to have to put the exact countries of origin on their packages. All under the "That would make the packaging confusing for consumers" guise. Or the "Our product chain is too complex, and that would be very inconvenient" guise..

Maybe it's a Nordic thing, but I (like many others) buy strawberries and raspberries straight from a nearby farm during the (short) summer season. Freeze enough of the berries and they last until the next summer.

Blueberries, same thing, but they are free from the forest.

Of course, strawberries won't be whole and firm once they are frozen with some sugar, but the taste of summer is there.

I'm from Washington State (land of the invasively delicious blackberry) and have come to realize that people who didn't grow up doing this need to be told it's something they can do.

Depending on your location there's a decent list of plants you can grow for practically zero maintenance that will produce more of that food than one family can consume, forever. Some of them are way more work to remove than introduce.

Spain produces generally very little high quality food, and vast quantities of hydroponic bland tasting god-knows-whats-inside stuff that looks like vegetables grown by masses cheap labor with highly questionable residence status.

Its harder and harder, but if one really cares in Europe, you have to focus on well-known brands (or whole supermarket chains if you have those) that have long term reputation to uphold.

Here in Switzerland its a bit easier (and EU food products are generally viewed as subpar), but you pay, and you pay a lot.

At the end, you get what you pay for, and there is not that much room for too-good deals which are not scams in some way. And prepare to just don't buy stuff if you don't find suitable things, and replace with something else. And focus on seasonal local stuff as much as possible (I guess residents of say Trondheim are casting a dark look on this)

I can confirm as a Spaniard that sadly, what you say is true. There is very good Spanish fruit, but the overwhelming majority is really low quality: whichever breed produces more at the cheapest cost, picked too early, and kept refrigerated for too long. And probably what you have tasted is better than what we typically get inside the country. The best commercial cherries I've ever tasted were the Spanish cherries I bought at Sainsbury's when I lived in the UK. I have never been able to find such quality for sale in Spain.

However, in spite of the blandness and the working conditions problem you mention, I do trust Spanish fruit to generally not have hepatitis A or EU-banned pesticides, so I'd still take it over Moroccan imports any day, at least if I am given the information to choose.

I also live in Spain, which supermarkets do you trust here?

None much, to be honest. I buy at Gadis and Eroski as the lesser evils (also Lidl for some processed stuff, but not for fresh products). But if I want good fruit, I go to a small fruit store, which is more expensive, but I find to have much better and more consistent quality fruit.

(Not that you can trust any small fruit store either... but some are good).

This is a lie.

https://www-consumer-es.translate.goog/seguridad-alimentaria...

If by chance you go to an street market and you don't see or trust labelling you can go or ask. Any other place origin is properly labeled. Of course not only for vegetables and fruits but also for fish, seafood and meat.

That's the theory.

In practice, the supermarket where I typically buy (because it's closest to home) is hit and miss. Sometimes they specify the origin, sometimes they don't. I'm sure if I asked they would tell me, but the process would probably involve an overworked cashier asking an equally overworked manager, plenty of waiting, making other customers wait as well, and being seen as the nitpicky guy who is always asking. Ideally it's what we all should do, but in practice I and most people I know have no time or willpower for that.

On the other hand, in small fruit stores and markets, the overwhelming majority of the fruit doesn't specify origin. I can ask and at those places I will probably get an immediate answer, of course. But then I have to trust the word of someone whose primary motivation is to sell me the fruit. My bet is that many wouldn't acknowledge it's from Morocco. And it's not like I can check.

If it were so easy, newspapers wouldn't be publishing "tricks" to try to identify Spanish fruit:

https://www-elespanol-com.translate.goog/cocinillas/actualid...

https://www-larazon-es.translate.goog/sociedad/asi-puedes-co...

Tricks that sadly aren't even guaranteed to work, because a Spanish company selling fruit from Morocco can use a Spanish barcode.

strawberries are especially filled with pesticides: that one really tops the list for pesticides, etc. personally i have like 4 beds of strawberries at home from which I get most of them from.

> strawberries are especially filled with pesticides

Apples, peaches, grapes and oranges are also high up on that list..

> At least in Spain, it's common to see strawberries with unmarked origin or, even worse, "Origin: Spain" but it happens to be a Spanish company that brings them from Morocco

The import switch trick exists, but is nonetheless illegal. So is mislabeling food origin (even from within the EU). For instance, I know that the health authorities in France go to open-air markets and road-side stalls to check that produces have labels, and that the country of origin is correct. (EU onions, as an example, is not an appropriate labeling. Nor is labeling Italian onions as regional onions..)

Of course, the local authorities might not have the will or incentives to strictly enforce your consumer rights..

It is crazy that we (Spain) are importing olives from Morocco into the EU when we are the largest producer of olives in the world, more than doubling the second.

I live in the former "[fruit] Capital of the World" and surrounded by trees, and the local stores sell [fruit] from Mexico and Chile.

Same here. I am surrounded by orchards but it's rare to see a local apple in any of the local supermarkets. We get Argentinian, Tyrolean, etc., but rarely Norwegian.

In New Zealand, they made a law that the largest kiwis could not be exported. Otherwise they would all be sold to other countries for more money.

As a New Zealander I think you're mistaken. We are a heavily export-focused country. Quick Google shows nothing.

Citation please!

I don't know about kiwis, but in general smaller fruits are richer in taste.

The drought has hit Spain's olive orchards quite hard and people are desperate for olive oil.

Similarly it was always surprising to find garlic in San Francisco and Oakland grocery stores that didn’t come from just down the road in Gilroy, the “Garlic Capital of the World”[0].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilroy,_California

EU is aware, but are too afraid to enforce it that way. See all the protest from farmers in the last months, one of their main demands is that imported foods are also subject to same rules they are.

Awareness !== Competency

Source on "Morocco is preparing a major import hub through the Canary Islands, which is expected to "un-label" the source of products, I guess."?

The legislation is pretty clear imho. Raw food needs to be labelled when it comes to the origin. Even processed food needs to state the origin of their main ingredient.

Good point on moroccan stuff, will try to avoid it in the future.

Origin fraud happens all the time.

For instance to circumvent the embargo of fruit trees in Russia, Dutch farmers use Belarus to relabel the origin their products and continue selling. This was before the war, but probably still going on.

Olive Oil is also a fun one: "Operation Golden Oil (2008, Italy): In March 2008, 400 Italian police officers conducted “Operation Golden Oil,” arresting 23 people and confiscating 85 farms after uncovering a large-scale scheme to relabel oils from other Mediterranean nations as Italian ."

https://ilcircolo.eu/unveiling-the-truth-combating-olive-oil...

Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39583945 ("HN: Combating olive oil fraud with nuclear innovations")

Gotcha, I thought this would be a legal circumvention, hence asking for sources. So it's still fraud. That's what I wanted to know, thanks!

> In Morocco, too, strawberries are irrigated with sewage water, and several times this year consignments of strawberries contaminated with hepatitis virus

Hepatitis A contamination of frozen fruits happens from time to time all around the world, but I thought it was usually linked to the picking process and processing plants. Not that irrigation can’t be blamed, but some single digit hours of sunlight exposure should inactivate viruses (even the non-enveloped kind).

Why is Hepatitis A vaccination coverage so spotty in Europe (according to the WHO vaccination data)? The US has given it as part of the standard pediatric vaccination schedule for decades.

Good question. In Canada it’s something you’d have to pay for (or have private benefits for) because it was seen as only necessary for international travel. If you ask for it, no doctor is going to say no (if you’re willing to pay for the drug).

Maybe US recommends more because the people making the recommendations know they won’t have to pay for it and take the lowest-risk approach regardless of cost.

Largely you didn’t need it if your food handling/hygiene standards are good, but when you flash freeze foods from anywhere, you dial up the freshness and risk.

What kind of leverage does Morocco have to get away with this?

People like to buy cheap stuff. And if that fails, there's always Ceuta and Melilla.

I doubt most of the savings are passed on to the consumer. Companies will typically charge consumers as much as they can get away with no matter what their costs are and will happily poison people with shitty contaminated fruit if the lower costs mean they can stuff their pockets with more money while continuing to keep consumer prices as high as possible.

Morocco just doesn't seem to place the same importance in food cleanliness as the rest of the world. For example, they display, store and sell food directly touching the floor.

Buy a kilo of flour from a seller in Morocco, and he probably was storing that flour on the street. Directly on the street - not on a plastic bag or anything. He'll literally shovel the flour from his pile on the street into your bag.

In Canada, most of the clementines are from Morocco!

Mediterranean product came from Mediterranean!. Having clementines cultured on Canada would be less probable.

All this news are linked directly, with the current farmers protests. Farmers that are being manipulated very obviously by political agents on parties that in turn are puppets supported (and probably directed) by "outer group" in a divide-and-conquer mode, with their own agendas to promote".

So French farmers were incited to destroy Spanish fruits, and then Spanish farmers where wipped up against Morocco farmers; and then angry Polish farmers started to destroy Ukrainian grain exports (a incredibly stupid move for Poland interests). All at the same time, veery curious.

Good if they solve part of the problems, but this path is a double-edged sword. We like it or not, we live in a globalized world. "Qatar announce that will not export diesel for Spanish tractors anymore", and the Morocco strawberries will became a "clean as snow" new superfood overnight. Trust me.

Makes sense to grow those in California or Mexico for the Canadian market as they often do.

Each EU member is responsible for analyze the food that is imported crossing its borders, and they just report the results to destination. The destination of one of those consignments of contaminated strawberries from Morocco was the Netherlands; the destination was warned of the analysis, and what happened next, who knows.

What you are suggesting is to use coaction, blackmailing, to stop analyzing imports into the EU, or to hide the results, that cross the EU's southern borders.

You didn't understood anything it seems. I'm not suggesting, I'm telling you how this will end.

Don't you think that we are extremely tired of seeing French vandals --again-- assaulting and destroying Spanish fruit trucks while the gendarmerie just watch the cargo burn?. This people is attacking legal EU companies and the French police act as necessary accomplices that allow it. French government couldn't care less; they even do jokes on TV about it. Is the same stupid stunt since 70's, each time they need a scapegoat to divert the attention.

Do you think that this will increase the appetite of Spaniards for French products in the near future?. I seriously doubt it. Each action triggers a reaction

Second. Quality controls on EU is not a new thing. A lot of people works detecting and stopping dangerous products since decades. Thousands of this products are silently stopped and removed each year so, why do you think that this is suddenly breaking news? Have you heard about the recent scandal of Spanish strawberry farmers stealing water and sucking dry the Doñana National park?

Are kids vaccinated for hep A and B now? Not that it’s an excuse to let pathogens into food.

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