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Comment by tomp | Hacker News Reader

> You'd be surprised the shit women deal with.

I'm not sure, but I think you're being too general. I'd rather state this:

  You'd be surprised by the shit *attractive* women have to deal with.

And I 'm pretty sure that attractive men have to deal with the same kind of "shit". They just react to it differently.

Edit: I expected the downvotes, but please reply, do you disagree with the stated facts (i.e. does you experience differ from mine), or with the manner they were stated in?

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As a very attractive man ;) in the tech industry I can tell you you're completely wrong. No, just kidding, no down votes, please. :)

But seriously, in my experience good looks do help in getting you hired in tech. I've thought about it a lot and I think it's because men (perhaps less attractive men) like being the superior of an attractive man. It somehow increases their own feeling of "primal status" to be telling somebody attractive what to do. Ridiculous, I know, but I think it's true. :) You should really have processes in place to prevent frivolous hiring of attractive men. ;)

After you're hired I don't know though...

So let me boil this down. You don't believe women in general have to deal with "shit" - you think it's attractive women that deal with that shit. And moreover the fact that they're women has nothing to do with it; the only bias here is against attractive people in general.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying sexism is not a problem at all in the real world. Did I make a mistake in reading your comment?

I don't know about him, but "sexism" is not a problem at all in the real world. "Sexism" is a concept invented by cultural Marxists who openly proposed its use to disrupt existing cultural groups for the benefit of certain social classes (intellectual workers, etc.) and primarily exists in the modern business environment to make money for law firms.

So, no, "sexism" is not the problem, the problem is "anti-sexism."

In the above, "intellectual workers" would probably translate better as "political workers" as far as its use in cultural Marxist writings.

No, I don't think sexism is a problem. Rape is a problem. Child pornography is a problem. Hunger, drought, tsunamis are problems. Huge companies poisoning people, land, and wasting tons of food is a problem.

Sexism? Just a bunch of people who live practically perfect lives, and have no problems, and are bored, so they create some.

I'm slowly finding this conversation too Orwellian. Why do you care about what I think?!? I might be a phedophile, a rasist, but as long as I'm not hurting other people, I'm better that 99% of the world population. I find some people (so far only women) attractive, therefore I'd like to have sex with them, if I got a chance (I don't actively seek such chances, because sex with most women is boring, in my experience, unless (my) emotions are evolved). I don't make sexual comments at work, not because I would think they are inappropriate per se (I wouldn't make comments about someone being fat either, not because I think it's unappropriate, but because I don't want to hurt their feelings even more without good reason), but because at work, I like to focus on work.

Edit: to put things into perspective: my grandmother was born in 1930s. There were 8 children. One died very young. Her father was killed by nazi collaborators. He had a job. Her mother didn't. She had to support a family of 7, I don't know how. They made a drink out of tree bark, because coffee wasn't available.

My grandmother smiles more that most people I see commuting daily on the London subway. When people say, "we have a crisis", it makes me smile and think how deluded they are...

Attractive men DON'T have to deal with the same kind of shit, in general, because they are not a minority. They are not in a minority with social precedents to keep them down, which is what this article is all about. Institutionalized sexualization of women through teasing and joking is pretty common. This piece is trying to get you to where you try to understand what it's like.

Most of us have wondered if our bulge was big enough - imagine if it was judged daily, by every oncoming woman, in every meeting. Imagine if you were constantly teased about getting a boner, and people acted as if it were normal.

I imagine some people around here aren't very good at imagining, are too literal, and hence react badly to this sort of thing.

You are obviously not an attractive male.

I've had to put up with quite a lot from women of all kinds and I'm not even that attractive.

I'm not going to say more, since I will get called a pussy and a bitch.

But lets please stop pretending that only men are perverts and that all sexual discrimination and indecent behavior towards other people comes from men.

You obviously are a jerk. But sadly that's also normal amongst our CS population.

>You obviously are a jerk.

And you are obviously a "nice guy."

Yeah, thanks - I do try to do the right thing. But that doesn't mean I'm a pushover. You can be alpha and still be a nice guy, it's just how you deal with those who -aren't- nice that matters.

Women are inherently, inescapably what you fear being called. Try to imagine how that must feel, to have the worst insult people around you can imagine to be "I'm like you."

Women don't have their chests looked at in fields where they aren't a minority?

Or is minority status merely a red herring?

Reading your reply, I had an idea...

Maybe women perceive men as being sexually discriminating because they only receive sexual comments from men. When I try to think about it, I (as a man) also receive much more sexual comments from men. Maybe it is simply that men are much more open talking about sex, and when we do it with everybody, men and women alike, but when women hear it, they think it has something to do with them being women...

I don't know if I'm correct, generally, but in my social circles, we joke about sexual stuff a lot. (With friends, of course, not at workplace.)

My general impression is that women will receive comments from other women that are generally different to the comments from men. And while these female-to-female comments may not be sexual per se they are not always going to be 100% positive when a women is trying to do something non-traditional.

Basically some other women will often be just as discouraging and as sexist as some men. They will reinforce the same strict gender stereotypes for the same illogical reasons as the men.

> They will reinforce the same strict gender stereotypes

What if they are just voicing their opinions?!?

I had a girlfriend that was very "stereotypical" - I practically had to beg her after every meal no to go to the kitchen to clean up, but to stay with me at the table and just talk and relax. Is she wrong by being who she is, just because she is "reinforcing illogical stereotypes"?

People are different. Be yourself, hang out with people who accept you for who you are. Let other people be.

A valid question but I'm going to make the judgement call and say that opinions that take the form: "You should not do A because you are a member of group Y and Y's aren't good at or don't do A" are not okay.

Your girlfriend was probably quite satisfied with a kitchen that had been promptly cleaned and that made her happy. However if she ever voiced the opinion, 'You should help me clean up', to your younger sister then that wouldn't seem okay to me.

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