Can Europe's trains compete with low-cost airlines? | Hacker News Reader

Can Europe's trains compete with low-cost airlines?

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24 pointsJumpCrisscross23 comments

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Trains are to damn expensive in europe, and why the hell are we still not taxing aviation fuel the same as car fuel?

Just checked:

Return flights to Paris from London for two adults: £107

Return Eurostar train to Paris from London for two adults: £676

I would gladly take a train as I find it a far more relaxing way to travel but the numbers just don't add up.

You're not wrong, but those numbers are not completely equal. If you add the cost of transport to and from the airport, and the total time for the trip, the flight will probably still cost less, but not quite that much.

True but you'd also have to get a train to London St. Pancras for the Eurostar which would probably entail some connection travel costs too - especially so if you are not in London.

Well yes, but this kind of comparisons look at only a certain route; in this case Paris-London, which means (or at least implies) central areas of both cities. Obviously, if we want to include any wider area there are too many variations to have a useful comparison.

and you have to consider that train-stations are older and have better layout to get people on and off trains than airplanes that have tighter security even on inter EU travel for EU citizens.

One thing that is really annoying with traveling in EU via train is that there is no simple way to book tickets even with InterRail/EuroRail app. I did a vacation where i traveled around between Netherlands, Germany, Denmark Sweden and Poland back and forth and if you want a reserved seat you have to order it in advance for Poland and have your paper tickets sent to you in your home country 2 weeks in advance.

If you are in Poland you can do reservations the same day.

An other problem with reservations is that they are only for the train you have reserved on, and in Germany and Denmark there is a high probability that your train will be delayed to the point of being replaced with a train with fewer cabins, meaning you won't have a seat.

Might not sound like a big deal but on a trip from Copen hagen to Berlin that is 7 hours or a trip from Berlin to Katowice that is 8 hours, not having a seat is fast becomming an issue.

You simply wont get business people to travel with trains like that. EU seems to have made the decision that inter european travel by train is for young people in their early 20s and goods containers.

But within European countries the internal travels are usually not a problem and quite nice. Except in Southern Sweden. The commuter trains are a complete mess and has been ever since it was privatized.

I recently bought tickets with seat reservations for Poland from https://bilet.intercity.pl/

I printed the ticket as I was in the office. Some other passengers were showing phones, but I don't know if that was the same thing.

(Remember when a flight is delayed, if the next one is full you simply don't travel. Standing or moving between seats can be preferable.)

You should always check the website of the Man in Seat 61 to find the best way to buy tickets between any two cities. https://www.seat61.com/

(no affiliation, just a fan of the site)

How far in advance did you check?

If you’re flexible on departure time - Eurostar offer £35pp tickets

https://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/find-lowest-fares

Less convenient, certainly but this does narrow that gap

Picked a weekend at the end of this month - depart Friday, return Sunday. Same dates for the flight (used Skyscanner).

Leaving on Friday 29th, returning on Sunday 31st, two adults:

- Plane, Veuling, €320

- Train, Eurostar, €510

The preceding weekend has slightly cheaper flights from "London" Southend airport.

I agree with your overall point, but I’m not sure you’re making a fair comparison:

- Eurostar trains run from central London; cheap flights leave from Luton, Stansted, and Gatwick, none of which are close to London, and which therefore all potentially require a time-consuming extra transfer, at some additional cost.

- if you have flexibility on time and book a little in advance, one-way Eurostar tickets for one adult can be found for ~£50, and easily for less than £100.

So it’s more like ~£107 versus ~£200-400, if you live near a relevant airport, or in central London, respectively.

—-

Of course, this still doesn’t explain why running a train should be several times more expensive than a plane. I’m not sure the absence of environmental taxes (as argued in the article) is the full explanation- this sounds more like a mechanism to force price parity, rather than the root cause?

Luton is 40 minutes away from St. Pancras International. I find both Luton and Stansted close to London, especially Luton with a really good Thameslink connection.

You need a lot more infrastructure for trains, and more people to maintain everything.

Note the Eurostar is perhaps an especially bad example in terms of affordability, versus most HSR in Europe:

* the Channel Tunnel has very high access charges (because construction was very expensive, and as a private entity it took on a lot of debt and wants to pay that off!), and

* the terminals in both London and Paris are too small for the time taken by border control now the UK is no longer in the EU (which has led to Eurostar running fewer trains—but the demand has hardly decreased).

For a comparison for a journey I do:

22-24 March, Copenhagen to Berlin and back, one adult:

€210 by train.

€170 by plane (no luggage added).

The plane is much faster, but I can get work done on the train. Both cities have cheap public transport connections between the centre and the airport.

https://archive.is/MrQfx

Some can. If you factor in the time it takes to get to the Airport and that you can bring luggage, suddenly even a long trip becomes viable.

What really sucks is that there’s no central way to book these trips that’s flexible when there’s train delays and you need to cross borders. I can book a flight from Germany to Italy that still reaches it’s destination, if delayed. I can’t book a discounted train trip, because if I lose the connection due to delays in one country, my connecting tickets are not changed. So I need to fly, even if I’d prefer to travel by train.

The article says

> The Netherlands, Denmark and France have pushed ahead with plans for higher taxes on flying

but Denmark seems to be doing the opposite: "The government in Denmark is considering a VAT exemption for airlines which primarily operate domestic flights in the country".

https://www.thelocal.dk/20240304/danish-government-could-mak...

The article refers to a new fee for plane tickets that was decided upon last year in Denmark. It's quite a minor fee though that is not expected to affect consumer behavior. Trips in Europe will have a fee below 10 euros and flying from Denmark to New York will have a fee of around 40 euros. Furthermore it will only be fully phased in in 2030.

Source (in Danish): https://www.altinget.dk/artikel/regeringen-lander-aftale-om-...

Train travel is a UX problem for me. I have time, I hate flying and I care about the environment.

But German trains are expensive and unreliable. Booking tickets is confusing. I can never tell whether bicycles are allowed.

Trains are expensive because they don't have any competition. When you have a monopoly, you can soak your customers!

I don't think there are any European countries left where some long-distance railway company has an actual monopoly.

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