Come on, really? You can't be this naive.
I can see russian propaganda from far away.
If you would stop and think what a "peace deal" with a vicious-murderous aggressor means then you would not spew such bullshit. russia started the war, killed hundreds of thousands of people already and you call for Ukrainians to surrender under "peace deal" so they would be tortured and enslaved under russian occupation.
Also you could look into history to see whether there are any "peace deals" with russia that have held and not been just a pause for more aggression and atrocities.
On the basis of your moral imperative, there are no Western nations worthy of the peace, either.
Its not like NATO isn't responsible for wide-spread destruction of sovereign democracies, also ..
That's entirely besides the point. These entities should be making peace with each other in spite of each others crimes.
It is your propaganda which precludes peace, because you are convinced, without rational thought, that peace is impossible... whereas, there was actually a peace deal brought to the table, nix'ed by NATO ..
One side is murdering and the other side should make peace by being murdered?
What is my country guilty of?
I don't agree with the invasion and destruction of Ukraine's eastern regions to be an appropriate response - but me, not agreeing with something, doesn't make it propaganda.
Propaganda is "NATO and Ukraine have done nothing wrong, Russia are just inventing reasons". This propaganda is designed to prevent you from having a rational look at the reasons. Propaganda shuts down continued thought on the subject - I invite you to consider that perhaps you have not thought enough about why the Russians are willing to sacrifice so much, on their own borders.
Just as you are inviting me to really, really think about whether Ukraines' actions warranted this heinous response. (Clue: I don't agree with any war, or that there is any such things as an honorable war these days. No nation state is worth the life of another human being, period. Both Russian and Ukrainian citizens as well as their ruling political classes should be reminded of this fact, repeatedly.)
Maybe, just maybe, consider whether any of this expansion has not been active war and murder?
You are doing victim blaming by putting any fault on Ukraine for trying to protect themselves from invasion. They did not manage to protect themselves and now are somehow at fault for war.
In your opinion the victim has to make peace not the aggressor. What a twisted mind.
You say both need to be reminded but somehow only say NATO is bad even tho NATO is not even part of this conflict.
The US - and its NATO allies, using NATO bases - murdered 5% of Iraqs population in cold blood, on the basis of outright lies.
Did you forget these details in your rush to study history? This is recent history - as in there are still millions of victims, who blame the NATO alliance, and the 5-eyes/12-eyes criminal superstate, for the murder, calamity and bloodshed delivered to them, on average, every twenty minutes for the last twenty years.
Yes, Ukraine has made a deal with the devil. Even if the American people aren't aware of it, the rest of the world has been watching NATO member states' war crimes tallies climb into the stratosphere. Far, far above and beyond anything that even Russia can deliver on the war fronts it fights - on its own border.
> NATO is not even part of this conflict.
That is utterly false, and the fact you would proffer this inane statement belies the truth that you are indeed, a victim of insane propaganda.
Now name one at least (besides maybe Serbia which isn't exactly demolished however you look at it).
> The US - and its NATO allies, using NATO bases - murdered 5% of Iraqs population in cold blood
That's actually a pretty outright lie...
The bases in Ukraine intended for training Ukrainian intelligence staff by US specialists were established two years AFTER Russian invasion, and did not lead to any hostile responses beyond the usual death and destruction that Russia has been sowing all over Ukraine since 2014.
The 2014 Maidan coup? Another CIA operation.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-...
This, from a country that gave itself carte-blanche to ruin any sovereign state its ruling classes deemed culturally inferior, kicking off World War 3 with the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003 and subsequent murder of 5% of its population.
So, sure. The USA's activities in Ukraine for the past 15 years have been utterly benign ..
The article you linked makes no mention of such things.
There was no coup in Ukraine either. Ukrainian parliament unanimously voted to remove Ukrainian president from office after he gave an order to shoot at peaceful protesters, resulting in over 100 deaths, and fled the country fearing criminal prosecution. All members from his own party voted in favor of that too.
From where do you derive your propaganda - the same media organizations, owned by the bomb manufacturers currently reaping immense profit from Ukraines' dire situation, maybe .. ?
And its the bomb makers, and their willing media lackeys (whom are owned by the bomb makers), who are convincing the gullible American public that it is in their interests (it really isn't) to get involved in yet another heinously evil, disgusting war - this, after having also convinced their willful subjects to invade and destroy Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia .. exactly the same folks involved in Ukraine.
One bomb dropped every twenty minutes, for the past twenty years. We're almost running out of places for America's ruling oligarch classes to extract a profit through their war-mongering ...
No. These are well-known facts, public record. On 22nd February 2014, the Ukrainian parliament voted 328-0 in favor of removing Yanukovych from office after what he had done. Even his own party released a statement condemning him. Elections for the new president were held in May of the same year. Which part of this is "CIA coup"? Is it a "CIA coup" every time a parliament holds a vote of no confidence to remove someone from a public office? If that's the case, then many countries in Europe have a "CIA coup" every few years as failed politicians are voted out of office, usually because of corruption or incompetence.
> From where do you derive your propaganda - the same media organizations, owned by the bomb manufacturers currently reaping immense profit from Ukraines' dire situation, maybe .. ?
No. I can't think of a single media outlet in my country connected to "bomb manufacturers" in any way. One media group is centered around an old newspaper publisher, another group is centered around a medical supplier that has branched into media and retail business, and the third major one is public broadcasting. So you have to somehow connect a dog food retailer to the war if you want to pursue the profiteering angle.
>many countries in Europe have a "CIA coup"
Yes, they do indeed, because the CIA views Europe as an enemy to the superiority of the American people, and performing these kinds of coups is entirely within its purposes as a counter-democratic, sovereignty-invalidating agency.
> Is it a "CIA coup" every time a parliament holds a vote of no confidence to remove someone from a public office?
Quite often, yes it is. The CIA conduct operations forcing the political change they want to see - and this definitely occurred in the case of Ukraine. See also, the Whitlam government in Australia, where they refined the technique.
Indeed - speaking of clandestine operations, here's how Ukrainian president (2005-2010) Viktor Yushchenko looked before and after Russians poisoned him: https://i.imgur.com/H3R7yF8.jpeg
The poisoning happened two months before 2004 presidential elections. Russians poisoned the prime challenger to their puppet, and boosted their puppet further with widespread election fraud that was later overturned by Ukrainian supreme court.
This is how an actual coup attempt looks like.
> Yes, they do indeed, because the CIA views Europe as an enemy to the superiority of the American people, and performing these kinds of coups is entirely within its purposes as a counter-democratic, sovereignty-invalidating agency.
CIA is not the prime mover in the world and the only reason why anything ever happens. For example, last week the Estonia minister of justice resigned because he had used his personal allowance against established rules by renting an apartment from his wife's adult son from another marriage. While he was aware that he couldn't rent an apartment from a relative (anti-corruption rule), he didn't know that the son would qualify as a relative too under these rules. He fucked up and resigned. This had nothing to do with the CIA, nor do many other things going on in the world. To claim otherwise is to be ignorant of the complexities of the world.
When it comes to Eastern Europe, the CIA is not even in the top three most influential intelligence organizations.
There is no "one true way to coup" - what you are describing is the propaganda you have consumed that makes you believe your nation could never do something so heinous as poison its opponents, imprison them indefinitely without charge, etc - when in fact, it DOES do that - in spades - and you are really just projecting. What you are describing is how Hollywood protrays coups, lol.
Anyway.. Your straw man arguments are interesting, but this:
>When it comes to Eastern Europe, the CIA is not even in the top three most influential intelligence organizations.
Is curious. Its not through lack of trying!
Its just that there is MUCH resistance to American imperialism in that region. Thankfully!
True - but the poisoning of Yushchenko was a thing that actually happened, and it is not fiction like the story about 2014 CIA coup in Ukraine. By the way, the puppet that Russians backed then was Yanukovych, the same man who later successfully became the president of Ukraine and sabotaged EU aspirations under Russian orders, then shot protesters and fled the country when he lost all political backing that he had and was facing criminal charges. History didn't start in 2014 indeed.
> your nation could never do something so heinous as poison its opponents, imprison them indefinitely without charge, etc - when in fact, it DOES do that
I am not an American, and if you came here and told everyone how our government poisons opponents and imprisons people indefinitely, you'd get very strange looks and genuine concern about your mental health. :)
> Its just that there is MUCH resistance to American imperialism in that region.
You are so boxed in with the "CIA vs the world" narrative of the Anglosphere that you miss the fact that in our region, it's FSB, SVR and GRU against SÄPO, SUPO, KAPO, VDD, VSD, SB, SBU and others. How many of these abbreviations do you even recognize without googling? "American imperialism" is not a thing that people here have any reason to talk about. The modern western self-loathing is non-existent, found only on Twitter among teenagers who have consumed a little too much of American media and pop-culture. The imperialism that we are facing comes from Russia. We don't want to live under a Russian version of Jim Crow laws like 35 years ago. We don't want to see our cities destroyed, people murdered, women and children raped, language and culture wiped out.
Foreign dignitaries have often been struck by a gallery in our presidential palace. The gallery displays paintings of all former heads of state, with their birth and death dates and locations. There's a repeating pattern: almost everyone from the pre-WII period have names of remote Russian towns and dates from 1941 or 1942. They were sent into labor camps and executed there. The few who managed to avoid imprisonment and escape to the free world lived long lives and died much later in exile in places like Stockholm, London, Toronto.
The war in Ukraine gives us much more reason to talk about Russian imperialism than about American imperialism. You are very right that history didn't start in 2014, nor in 1776. The war is just the most recent example of a very old pattern of Russian behaviour that started well before the first settlers heading for America climbed into their boats.
You can do nothing about Russia's war criminals, until you do something effective about YOUR OWN. Following OUR OWN war criminals into yet another facetious, illegal war on the basis of lies and propaganda, instead of DEMANDING justice for their victims, is just pure evil.
WE have been murdering millions of people in OUR illegal wars, fought far beyond our own borders, at a rate far, far more detrimental to world peace than anything Russia has been doing. Russia, fighting a defensive war on its own 2000-km long border with Ukraine, is in NO WAY comparable to the heinous human catastrophe we have caused, by way of the machinations of an out of control military industrial complex hell-bent on what are fundamentally racist wars in .. Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Somalia ... Yemen. And many, many more theatres beyond the range of civilian observation.
>We don't want to live under a Russian version of Jim Crow laws like 35 years ago.
The world does not want to live like Americans do, either. We've seen the bankrupt families living under the bridges. We've seen the addiction and the war crimes and the crimes against humanity. We've seen your for-profit prison-industrial slavery system. We've seen the weapons you drop on innocent people while ensuring your own children have no future.
We've seen the network - a thousand of them - of secret bases the American empire has built in order to give itself a place to torture and commit further heinous crimes against humanity.
We saw what you did to Julian Assange and the many others who came before him, attempting to right the heinous injustices of your military industrial complex and its vile, evil intelligence services, usurping sovereign nations across the globe for the purposes of the misanthropic oligarch class that rules you, through your military junta.
Your hatespew of Russia is noted as yet another form of cowardice. Spend a trillion dollars on diplomacy per year, instead of murdering innocent people every twenty minutes, as you have done for twenty years, and you might find that the rest of the world is willing to play with America, again. As it stands, the USA is losing the respect of a majority of the nations of the world, whose citizens do not cowardly shy away from observing the results of American war crimes, which are committed in your name whether you have the temerity to confront them, or not.
You are merely propagandizing for war. I demand you start making peace, American. The world tires of your excuses for the death of millions of innocent people. The moral imperative you claim is a dire fallacy.
I already told you that I am not an American. I am not even from the Anglosphere, so the self-loathing does not evoke any emotions from me.
Furthermore, I come from a country that already tried "making peace" with Russians during the Woodrow Wilson-inspired era of neutrality in Europe. We stayed neutral, trying to maintain good relations with everyone, even with Nazi Germany and the USSR. In the end, both invaded us, murdered national elite from politicians to doctors to lawyers to scholars to everyone else who could run the country and challenge the puppet government they installed, and sent sizable part of the population in entire families to die in remote prison camps. That was followed by a Russian military occupation, which lasted until 1991. The occupation was characterized by deep economic stagnation and systematic attempts to wipe out our nation by suppressing our language and culture and by mass resettlement of Russians into our country. By the time USSR collapsed, the average wage was less than 30 dollars per month and we were on the verge of becoming a minority in our own country.
Lack of strong alliances in Europe against totalitarian dictatorships is a key reason why this happened to so many countries in Europe. Western Europe successfully defeated Nazis and restored freedom in 1945. In Eastern Europe, defeating Russians took 50 years longer.
> Russia, fighting a defensive war on its own 2000-km long border with Ukraine
Nothing says defensive war like shooting 31 ballistic missiles, worth 400 million dollars, at a peaceful European city Kyiv, hundreds of kilometers from the frontline. Results of the attack that took place earlier today: all missiles shot down, but debris fell on a kindergarten and residential buildings. Shockwaves from air-defence missiles blew out windows in apartment buildings. A power substation and a residential building caught fire. Fortunately no deaths, but 10 people injured, including a child.
And this has gone on for more than two years, day after day, while apologists like you make excuses for this behaviour and lecture others about morals.
> The world does not want to live like Americans do, either.
Indeed. I want to live the way I choose, not the way Russians want to force me, with your approval.
Most certainly a serf-subject in one of its puppet states, then, perhaps an active member of NATO - already well known across the globe for committing decades of atrocity in states deemed inferior by a heinously racist oligarchic ruling class in the Western hemisphere.
>Furthermore, I come from a country that already tried "making peace" with Russians during the Woodrow Wilson-inspired era of neutrality in Europe.
The USSR is long gone.
Its the 21st Century. New diplomacy is possible. We just don't do that any more, though. We (Western nations) prefer to see trillions of dollars spent on war and calamity instead.
>Nothing says defensive war like ..
.. stating, repeatedly for decades, that the presence of NATO-aligned forces within km's of Russias borders was a red line and would be treated as an act of aggression against Russia, which reserved the right to respond - AS EVERY SINGLE NATION IN THE WORLD HAS THAT RIGHT. This was stated, countless times leading up to the calamity, but it was utterly ignored by NATO allies in their rush to Russia's border.
The victims of the Wests' imperialist aggression know full well that NATO is not a good force in the world. NATO has the blood of millions, and millions of peoples lives on its hands - maybe they are not European and therefore not considered as important as European victims, in your mind?
>And this has gone on for more than two years
Two years? This conflict begins in 2008.
Nobody wants this war, which is why it is such a travesty that it happened. It could have been prevented, had there actually been any diplomatic actions taken by Western nations, including Ukraine. However, the risk of war was taken instead, and now here we are - in spite of multiple repeated warnings.
>I want to live the way I choose, not the way Russians force me to, with your approval.
Then face the consequences for the way those actions are received by your enemies.
Would you be so willing to have your enemy build 10 bases along your border, all the while saying they "don't mean you any harm" while their military is busy actively demolishing countless sovereign states around the world, murdering millions of innocent people in cold blood, building 1,000 bases across the landscape for the purpose of torture and other highly illegal activities?
Because thats what the US and its allies had been doing, in the DECADES leading up to the Ukraine conflict. To a very significant portion of the worlds population, the US and its allies STARTED WORLD WAR 3 with the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003, and the subsequent cold-blooded murder of 5% of its population. Were you not paying attention to this atrocity - because the Russians surely did.
Ukraine is just the latest in a long string of heinous atrocities that were called for by the US' military junta (PNAC) in its desire to refactor the ENTIRE WORLD according to their highly specious cultural imperative.
I highly doubt your country would tolerate having its enemies begin construction of hostile bases along its borders.
I understand, however, your lack of empathy for this point, since it counter-acts the war-lust with which you are clearly afflicted.
So an Australian living in Austria keeps gaslighting Eastern Europeans about their experience with russia.
Then keeps telling them to eat russian shit or face consequences.
Then keeps spewing flat-earth level conspiracy shit with extreme conviction, arrogance and aggression.
Completely ignores the plight of current or previous russian atrocities.
Then accuses others of lacking empathy.
It's infinitly amusing how you keep trying to pin Anglo-American obsessions on a person like me from a completely different culture. We don't have oligarchs, because Russians stole everything when they occupied the country and forced us into communism. Real estate, businesses, factories, even single-family farms deemed too big were confiscated. Economically speaking, the entire country had to start from scratch in 1991. Nor do we have much history with racism, because until the USSR collapsed and borders opened up, virtually no-one had ever met a black person. I was well into adulthood when I met a black person for the first time. Felt like meeting an alien. :)
As to serfdom, my grandfather's grandfather was born as an actual slave in Russian empire. Bought and sold like property. I don't find many similarities between my current situation and his life back then.
> The USSR is long gone.
The way Russian Federation treats its neighbours is no different from how the USSR or the Russian empire treated them. There was a glimpse of hope for change in early 1990s, but those were crushed when Russia launched an extremely violent war against Chechenya, and when Soviet hardliners managed to consolidate power and put their man in charge of Russia again.
> I highly doubt your country would tolerate having its enemies begin construction of hostile bases along its borders.
Nobody was building any bases anywhere before Russia invaded Ukraine. Europe saw unprecedented reduction of both domestic and foreign troops, down by 5-10x compared to Cold War levels. For example, German army went from 300k+ soldiers and 3800 tanks in 1980 down to 60k soldiers and 225 tanks in 2015. The US had 5000 tanks in Germany in 1989. By 2015, none were left. The story about "enemies building baseses along Russian borders" is complete nonsense. Have you not bothered to look up facts?
> Would you be so willing to have your enemy build 10 bases along your border, all the while saying they "don't mean you any harm" while their military is busy actively demolishing countless sovereign states around the world, murdering millions of innocent people in cold blood, building 1,000 bases across the landscape for the purpose of torture and other highly illegal activities?
That's the life I'm living right now, less than 200 km from Russian border. Russia has been modernizing, rebuilding and expanding their army since mid-2000s, and they started/are currently waging the largest war in Europe since the WWII on completely fabricated excuses. For three decades, Russians have been threatening that "the masters will be back". Should we bomb Moscow before that happens?