Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS | Hacker News Reader

Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

techcrunch.com

970 pointsmadtrax1,000 comments

Epic perhaps thought Apple might show them grace after the lawsuit in the US. A kind of repeat of the Apple-Samsung litigation where everyone has a "it's just business" attitude and keeps doing business together while simultaneously suing each other. Apple on the other hand has decided they will show them no quarter. I don't think they're being emotional about it. I think it's to show every other developer that they will actually enforce the DPLA that everyone signs, and they won't turn the other cheek.

Epic doesn't care whether Apple shows "grace", or needs them to, they are going in by force with the backing of the EU legislation. It might just take a year or two longer to get through the courts. They can hold out that long without any problems, preparing their store in the background.

I think with Samsung, Apple had little choice. If you need to buy over 200 million high res mobile screens per year you have very few choices. Exact numbers on Samsung’s end aren’t readily available, but semiconductor components are by far their biggest segment and Apple is probably their only significant external customer.

I am absolutely sure Apple would love to cut Samsung off at the knees, but not if they do it to themselves at the same time. Samsung poses a much greater threat to Apple than all the third party app stores that could be dreamed up.

It’s a really interesting mutually assured destruction situation.

Epic and Apple, on the other hand, can both be fine without each other, so I wouldn’t expect them to work through the animosity

Parts of Apple's DPLA are likely unenforceable in the EU going forward.

> I don't think they're being emotional about it

It's hard to read it as anything but emotional. It's pure display of power, Apple is willing to hurt iOS users to make a point to other developers.

This is a well-timed account deactivation by Apple to prevent Epic from publishing its app store in Apple's app store with iOS 17.4

>A kind of repeat of the Apple-Samsung litigation where everyone has a "it's just business" attitude

Very different. Steve was taking Samsung to court partly ( or largely ) taking Android with it. But Tim wasn't a supporter of that, or at least behind the scene he was dealing with Samsung ( or Samsung Display, Samsung Foundry and Samsung Memory divisions directly ). So yes it was all it's just business in large because Tim was there to smooth things out. Or partly because Tim knew they cant do it without Samsung. Zero Chance at the time and they wasn't a trillion dollar company then.

I dont see any similarities here with Apple and Epic.

Epic is sending a strong signal to regulators that they're malicious, and can't be trusted to police themselves. It's a terrible look under the circumstances.

It is quite unusual to cheer for Goliath putting a David to the knife. Sure, Apple makes great premium hardware but IMO, their monopolistic actions in the digital space is something to be truly wary of.

This is the tweet that Apple cited as warranting removal from the App Store:

> Apple leadership faces some massive decisions in the coming weeks as the contradictions between their stated principles and the intended and actual consequences of their present policies are reckoned with: the app store monopoly, the digital goods payments monopoly, the tax, the suppression of true information about competing purchasing options, the blocking of competing web browser engines and outright destruction of web apps.

> It doesn’t have to be this way. Apple is a few bold and visionary decisions away from being the company they once were and that they still advertise themselves to be: beloved brand to consumers, partner to developers, and overlord to none. [1]

Damn, that's probably the least caustic tweet I've ever read on Twitter...

Ruthless.

[1] https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/176224372553353258...

I was expecting a full on rage-tweet too. Must have hit one of Apples sore spots.

Gruber has a good take on this: [1]

> That Tim Sweeney tweet cited as an example doesn’t seem out of line to me. [...] Apple ought to stick to Epic’s deliberate breaking of the App Store rules with Fortnite back in 2020. It’s not even in dispute that they flagrantly broke the rules then. If Apple wants to make that a “lifetime” ban, they should just say so.

> Citing recent tweets, like Sweeney’s, that are simply critical — even scathingly critical (or to borrow Schiller’s term, “colorful”) — just makes it look like Apple’s policy is that if a developer criticizes the App Store’s rules, Apple will punish them for speaking out. I don’t think that’s Apple’s policy at all, but some people think it is, and this situation with Epic just reinforces that.

[1] https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_acco...

Na. Not a good take. Apple already said the reason was because they had revoked epics account for breaking rules and did so after being made aware of the account from Timmy boys tweets.

Anything else is just Timmy adding fuel to the fire which reinforces apples decision to not allow epic to have an account.

Timmy is desperately trying to become steam.

(via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729, but we merged that thread hither)

If I had a Customer that spent years relentlessly complaining about my Company, I know I wouldn't want to have them as a Customer.

It does present an interesting question on whether a Company can be forced to have a bad actor as a Customer, I guess this will be decided in the lawsuits to come.

The issue is that Epic doesn’t want to be Apple’s customer in the first place. They want to publish iOS apps. The fact that this requires them to be an Apple customer is the core problem.

Imagine if everyone wanting to publish a web app would have to be a customer of the respective browser vendors.

Everyone complains about Google and Mozilla and Safari and Edge. Luckily, that doesn’t prevent us from having our web apps running on those browsers.

Companies in quite a few industries have a duty to do business with you, with very few limitations. For example, in some countries/cities, taxis generally can't refuse transportation to you, assuming you're able to pay and not endangering the driver. Having publicly and repeatedly expressed a dislike for taxis, or even wearing a t-shirt saying "taxis in $city are an overpriced monopoly" would not be a valid reason to be refused transportation.

In the EU/under the DMA, Apple now very likely has a duty to transact even with app developers saying mean things about them. That's certainly a very new situation for Apple, but not an unprecedented one.

I'm not sure if throwing more hissy fits and breaking more of their playmates' toys is a good idea now that adults are in the room.

The key difference I see in Apple's app store business is that it's a monopolistic marketplace model. If Apple allowed an alternative to the app store then this wouldn't be an issue. Take Microsoft and Windows as an example, they have the Microsoft store which operates as a marketplace with rules but they don't get the same scrutiny because there are alternatives. Don't like what MS is doing with their app store? Fine just release the binary yourself.

With Apple though, the bring it on themselves by having a monopolistic marketplace. Since they are the sole gatekeeper to getting apps on the iDevices, there is no alternative like there is in the MS ecosystem. Apple could end all scrutiny tomorrow if they allowed a way to install apps on iDevices that bypassed the app store and Epic would have no case.

If I had a Customer that spent years relentlessly complaining about my Company, I know I wouldn't want to have them as a Customer.

Epic aren't a customer. They're a supplier. They provide Apple with software that Apple's customers buy.

Apple are denying their customers, iPhone users, the option to buy Epic apps through Apple's app store. You should never lose sight of who actually loses here. It's not really Apple or Epic. They're massive corporations that will continue to make billions regardless. The loser is iPhone users who want to use their devices to play a game they enjoy.

Criticizing defects in a product or criticizing a vendor's misbehavior doesn't make you automatically a "bad actor". A healthy vendor/customer relationship involves having channels where this criticism can be exchanged without putting the vendor or the customer in a bad position, and the criticism results in a better product.

Instead, bug reports go into a black hole because Apple doesn't care, and they especially don't care about game developers, unless those game developers are running casino games or gacha games that bring in a billion dollars a year. Then Apple cares a lot - about 30%.

If a billion-dollar company is so thin-skinned that they can't handle having their policies criticized they're run by children.

Epic has historically brought in a lot of money for Apple, both directly - via titles like Infinity Blade and Fortnite - and indirectly - by enabling the developer ecosystem so more people can release titles on Apple platforms. In the past Epic helped promote new Apple product launches. Calling them a bad actor is ridiculous.

In Europe there is the concept of “Forced to contract”. You can be forced to accept a customer. Applies to many monopolies.

Your company is likely not considered a core platform service, so your analogy is not relevant.

Then you shouldn't position yourself as a gatekeeper. I also don't want to pay taxes, but have to comply with the law anyway.

If your company has a market segment captured, you should not have any right to do that, irrespective of your feelings.

If someone spends years badmouthing Microsoft, would you say its ok for Microsoft to block their apps from Windows?

If one stretches ones leverage to the point where it is considered by authorities as excessive and is forced to make concessions one is not in the position to attack those who attacked ones monopolistic behavior. The technical term is is "sitting in a glass house" and while one figures out the layout of the panels one is advised to refrain from throwing rocks.

The way I see it Apple is lumping past behavior and current behavior of Epic together to make an exclusion decision. But there was a big change between the past and now so the market situation has changed and access to this changed market should not overly depend on information from a very different world otherwise it can be considered at best arbitrary or an attempt to exclude competitors with irrelevant facts. The latter could get expensive.

Depends on the ruling and laws. I'm sure someone who didn't allow homosexual couples would not want to welcome them even after it was ruled as unconstitutional to discriminate to them in the US (even if they are middle eastern and laws in their homeland do allow for that). They were technically rowdy customers but the law allows them to be in as long as their rowdiness was due to their identity and not other neutral actions (although we know they will be judged much more harshly on those actions as an attempt to disciminate).

A bit of a crude comparison, but I hope it gets the point across that the behavior depends. retaliating against rules that the EU later determines to be bad rules may open a case to allow them, as long as they don't break other rules.

It's not even that, if I was Apple I wouldn't want to have them as a customer simply to deny them standing for their constant lawsuits. If the two companies have absolutely no business relationship at all, ties completely severed then it's a lot harder to demonstrate harm. All you could really sue about is that they won't do business with you.

I'm actually surprised it's not SOP to stop doing business with people who sue you after the lawsuit ends. I mean you took the nuclear option.

Epic isn't Apple's customer. Apple is just the local (techno)feudal lord / rentier wanting to tax all merchants trying to sell goods to Apple's serfs.

Things look a bit different if you are one of two for example electric utility companies in the country.

You can't deny someone service just because they said mean thing about you.

Companies should be forced to service law abiding customers.

Epic is only a customer because Apple's policies forces them to be.

Epic also doesn't want to be Apple's customer. No one would describe the relationship between Microsoft and Epic as "Epic being Microsoft's customer" because they distribute the Epic Games Store and Fortnite on Windows (Xbox console distribution notwithstanding; there it is more of a customer relationship).

Apple forces everyone who wants access to 50% of the mobile computing market into a customer-oriented relationship, and then complains when not everyone Thinks The Same as they do. Its disgusting behavior.

Epic isn't apple's customer. They just use their tools.

Why not? There will be more complaints because of your action

Are you serious? So you think it's okay for Unity to terminate my dev account because I complain about Unity on hacker news?

(Replace Unity with Windows, Photoshop or whatever software people constantly complain about.)

App vendors aren't customers. They don't pay Apple anything more than the license fees for Xcode. The app's users are the customers, and if you start throwing out the partners you lose customers. Now, sure, the calculus might change depending on your relationship with each partner, but you absolutely cant say that Epic doesn't bring revenue to Apple. They do.

> "Apple is retaliating against Epic for speaking out against Apple’s unfair and illegal practices, just as they’ve done to other developers time and time again," Epic said in its statement today.

The retaliation is shady, but is the retaliation illegal? Even if a whistleblower would show an Apple internal conversation that looks like "Let's retaliate against Epic", the fine print everyone probably has some "we can terminate the account for any reason" clause, which would include retaliation as well?

DMA requires that (stated informally) large enough online marketplaces do not retaliate against developers or users without a good cause.

Retaliation goes against the spirit of the DMA.

> But Apple told Ars that Epic Games Sweden's access to a developer account was granted through a "click through" agreement that was not evaluated by Apple management.

I’ve never heard this type of argument before. Presumably Apple considered their “click through agreement” suitable for developers to “click through” and agree to.

It means Apple would never have approved the Epic Sweden account if management had known, and for the past 3 weeks they were just looking for excuses to backtrack.

Which is supported by the fact that they justified the new ban with "they'd just break our terms again!" If you really believed that, Apple, you'd wait, and ban Epic Games Sweden after they broke your terms, which minimizes legal risk. They don't believe their own FUD.

Seems like the message is, sure we lost our case against the EU so we have be more open on the platform/store, but we're just going to ban any developers who even try to take advantage of that. I suppose they're leveraging their duopoly/luxury positions to give everyone the finger. And once again I'm glad I have nothing to do with the Apple ecosystem.

They really seem to be making a mockery of the EU regs here. Will the EU respond quickly and forcefully, or (essentially) admit that Apple is too big to regulate?

John Gruber's take:

https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_acco...

I wonder why Apple doesn't open up their platforms to have everything best on their devices instead of fighting and agonising developers and governments. Yes yes, the commission is nice but they might be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I mean, Apple is amazingly good in some areas but in some other areas their products are used only because they don't give a choice and they intent to keep it this way. They also want to control everything and provide all the services.

A bit short sighted and futile IMHO because the competition is catching up with their user experience but Apple doesn't catch up as quickly with the "smart" bits of the modern tech.

I recall a Steve Jobs speech about Apple doing a few things %20 better and other things worse and how he intents to change this by embracing the industry standards because they simply can't do everything by themselves.

I feel like Apple is doing the same mistake again where their products are becoming slightly better at few things and worse in others simply because you can't have the better stuff installed on Apple devices.

It is incredibly hard to change a culture of a corporation. Apple is not a thinking human, it's a bunch of people that have their own egos, preferences and wishes. It may not even be currently feasible to propose an idea like you have because the person doing so would be unpopular internally in Cupertino.

Culture is hard. This is why you see corporations and businesses fail constantly despite "obvious" choices being ahead of them.

Steve hated industry standards.

The only time he ever said anything else was when every web site in the world ran on flash and iphone couldn't do flash.

Every iphone user was reminded daily about how kneecapped it is when they can't pull up the web site for the restaursnt to check hours or call up for a reservation. That kind of life experience was his entire focus and his showpiece product failed utterly at it.

And so he said flash is bad and html5 and pwa is the better way to do what flash does.

Since then they only say anything even slightly similar only as a defense against monopoly charges about native apps "what? you can use pwas" but only on Safari and castrated functionality.

If Steve could have sold a product that didn't even use the same tcp/ip and html as everyone else, he would have. The only time he allowed the tiniest shred of interoperability is when there is no way to sell the product without it.

Tim Cook’s Apple is all about increasing the Services Revenue. The line has to go up. Apple exists for their shareholders, not users.

I've argued before that Apple should've semi-opened up iOS in a way that they could manage it to their interests. Now they've forced the hand of regulators to do it instead.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32170848

If there is an anti-culture youth movement against iPhones, apple will be in serious trouble. Their revenue is heavily dependent on selling iphones and people using the app store.

The point is not to create the best possible user experience.

Apple's goal is to build the best possible vending machine and put it in all our pockets.

> embracing the industry standards

The iPhone has legendary levels of crapitude.

Consider every app you use on the iPhone that is authored by Apple. Would you or its stakeholders still use it if you weren't forced to?

Mail? Calendar? Safari? Photos? Music? Fucking Messages? No, no, no, no, no, no.

Don't misunderstand me. I am talking about access to the exact same first party APIs and integrations Apple's software has, and giving it to third party developers. The functionality is so painfully basic, but nonetheless gated, of course a third party would be able to author something better. Like you think Spotify wouldn't give you Siri compatibility? It's just not allowed to.

The App Store is just the crappiest of them all. I don't think people realize how fees and its absolutely horrible discovery is responsible for the shitty state of apps today. I have been in this business a long time, and have met a lot of people, and it is absolutely, 100% Apple's fault that App Store games suck, and Steam's don't. The device is as powerful as a Nintendo Switch nowadays!

Whether or not Tim Sweeney has a legal leg to stand on, I'm so happy he keeps fighting this. Likewise with Spotify. I love that the EU is pushing legislation to give at least some people back control of their devices.

I'm curious why Tim Cook thinks Apple can continue to treat developers they way they do for years on end and it won't slowly but surely come to bite them hard one day.

Look, this is confusing. Can I just call them Tim Epic and Tim Apple?

Tim Sweeney could lead by example and remove Unreal royalty fees and make his app store free for all. There's no freedom fighter here. Just another greedy troll.

Meanwhile US FTC is totally asleep at the wheel.

What is Lina Khan even doing?

Apple is clearly being a bully in daylight.

This is why I sold my APPL stock a few weeks back. The experience on iPhone is shit. The web is broken on Safari. They broke PWAs. The vision pro is not a big hit. The notification system on MacOS is a poor experience as it gets in my way all the time. Apple want to extort devs to build apps. The arm macbook chips are amazing but that's old news now. Too much abuse of their customers and not much innovation. It has since slid 10% and I'm not surprised.

Sony didn't pay for them to do anything in this case.

Apple should avoid destroying developer trust as developers aren't forced to write ios apps. Apple needs developers.

Developers aren't forced to write any apps. They write apps where the revenue makes sense.

And the revenue makes the most sense on ios for a large share of developers.

95%+ of developers don't care if Apple doesn't allow Epic on their store. That's just reality.

If my boss tells me "we're launching an ios app" I'm not going to tell him about how I disagree with Apples principles and refuse to build it.

At this point Apple's view of what "developpers" means is probably Adobe, Microsoft, Google, Activision etc.

Smaller devs and midrange gaming companies tremendously helped launch the iPhone, but there's clearly just an afterthought in current Apple's mind.

Why is it okay for Apple to ban Epic but allow other devs when it would likely be illegal for Samsung to refuse to sell displays to Apple but sell them to other manufacturers?

Samsung could probably get away with not selling displays to Apple if they had successfully sued Apple for breach of contract related to selling displays to Apple. But it's a lot more plausible that Samsung would still want to take Apple's money even if their relationship were worse.

>would likely be illegal for Samsung to refuse to sell displays to Apple but sell them to other manufacturers?

Not entirely sure why that would be illegal? You can argue Apple cant do that because there are only two Smartphone ecosystem. But there are plenty of OLED display supplier out there.

I think Apple holds developers and third parties to “click through” agreements, so I hope Epic does the same towards Apple (it there has been any breach).

Feels like it is a weak legal argument (even though some jurisdictions may have special “ticket cases” doctrines).

It is not Epics concern if Apple by mistake would enter into a contract with them or not. It is up to Apple to whom they offer such agreements and how.

Haven't seen much discussion about Unreal Engine here.

Epic stated in court filings that it would consider Unreal a failed business if it lost the ability to maintain unreal for ios.

Many 3d enterprise apps need to run on ipads. This is hughe blow to unreal.

They f'ed around and found out.

Wondering how this affects Apple employees. Back in the day, working for Apple seemed cool. (Pirate flags on building etc).

Previously MSFT used to be (maybe they've turned that around?) the most hated tech company (becz of their very aggressive attitudes to competitors especially Netscape).

One thing they didn't FU and is represented by the infamous sweaty Balmer video [0] of him shouting "Developers, developers, developers", is pissing of people who build on their platform.

Well Apple seems to have topped that with this and other malicious compliance shenanigans in the EU.

I can't every imagine developing an iOS/native app on that platform going forward.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs

> Wondering how this affects Apple employees. Back in the day, working for Apple seemed cool.

Most employees are trying to pay bills and keep ar roof. Especially in today's tech job market, people are trying to avoid getting laid off. Very few people have the luxury of being able to think about apple seeming like a cool place to work or not.

So I would say this doesn't affect most apple employees in anyway.

well, I've published iOS apps but every time I have to go through the app review process I ask myself: is this really worth it? To have an inscrutable and vaguely hostile process tell me whether my customers are allowed to run my code? Increasingly often, my answer is no. Maybe the fight with Epic doesn't affect me directly, but it's just another thing that colors my impression of the "fairness" of the app store.

From working at apple, I remember that most engineers just work hard to make good hardware and software. I've heard very few mentions of what anyone outside of apple thinks of it

Apple has been driving developers away for quite some time now

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19966135

Apple, not unlike a modern-day ecclesiastical authority, excommunicates a heretic who dares to challenge its scripture.

Actual source: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-e...

Hypothetically, what if a multinational like Apple just doesn't pay the fines, assuming they have no subsidiary presence? Will they go after their EU-resident payment processors and infra providers?

Apple's market cap is important enough to the U.S. economy that I wouldn't be surprised if our intelligence community sabotages the DMA. We've done this for Boeing, why can't we do it here?

https://www.economist.com/special-report/2003/06/12/airbuss-...

Apple has enough subsidies in EU, starting with 5G modem developers purchased from Intel.

I'm so glad a big player is pushing Apple's buttons, but I do wish they didn't have the Tencent, and thus Chinese government, ownership stake.

There's just always going to be a trust issue there

Bringing up the Chinese government card is weird in this specific fight.

Epic could get away with moving their shares from Tencent to somewhere else, Apple can't move their core manufacturing from China to anywhere else.

Apple seems to be very scared that Epic's App Store might have been working. So much so, that they are going to risk another huge fine from EU.

Perheps Apple judges the fine less than the likely loss the the Epic store.

Apple is a monopolist on a service that is public.

Termination of developer account in this case merits FTC action.

Citation needed.

Apple is not a monopolist. The judge in the Epic Games suit even said so[0]. It also isn't a public service. It's a private service operated by a private company where you have to pay to play. And part of paying means agreeing to certain terms and conditions before you're allowed access. Violating that agreement is grounds for termination of your access.

[0]https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036043886/apple-fortnite-epi...

We need some competition in the mobile/tablet space. Apple hardware and performance is incredible. Google is inept at best and getting worse.

> Google is inept at best and getting worse.

Hard disagree. I've used Pixel phones for years and they're generally great phones. Biggest previous complaint was their software upgrade support window was too short, but now they offer 7 years of upgrades.

MS threw in the towel unfortunately. Now we are stuck with Apple and trash. People desperately cling onto this false ideology that Android is good and Apple is bad when they are at fault for ignoring Windows Phone which was better with their excuses that “I need thousands is fart apps or I can’t use windows phone”

Epic is learning the lesson that Nvidia had to learn. Apple holds grudges. Honestly, it was idiotic of them to expect anything else. Maybe they thought that they were more Samsung-like and after being a huge pain to apple, life will resume normalcy. Apple needed Samsung. They do not need Epic.

Grudges are unproductive and bring no benefit to the shareholder - this move is almost certainly going to result in a lawsuit that Epic would be in a good position in (assuming there aren't massive skeletons in the closet). This is an irrational move - especially in an election year when politicians have a lot to gain by demonizing late stage capitalism.

> Apple holds grudges. Honestly, it was idiotic of them to expect anything else.

I'm sure upon first hearing this news Epic's management collectively lay down and curled up into the fetal position, awestruck and weeping in surprise at the sheer, unprecedented nature of this blow.

people really think bumpgate was about some issue that also affected AMD too and not closing the door on NVIDIA building a platform inside Apple's platform and shifting the balance of power?

you've been reading way too much semiaccurate lol

https://blog.greggant.com/posts/2021/10/13/apple-vs-nvidia-w...

like, we have the benefit of a decade of retrospect and watched nvidia do exactly the thing that apple refuses to let their partners ever do (namely: wear the pants in the relationship), and you're still taking charlie's takes at face value. Do you really think it's the bumps and not Apple taking action to protect themselves and their future products against the threat of competitive lock-in posed by NVIDIA and CUDA?

it is just amazing that people continue to take the guy seriously. How is that "NVIDIA is 4+ years behind AMD in the mid-term, and GV100 and GP100 are bumpgate 2.0" working out for you? Was ~2015-2020 a good period for Radeon Group?

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2013/05/20/nvidias-volta-gpu-ra...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2015/05/19/amd-finally-talks-hb...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/05/03/thing-go-bumpgate-in...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/06/08/nvidia-p100-gpu-upda...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/08/01/nvidia-finally-shows...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2014/09/15/amds-mantle-api-goin...

it's amazing that people will sniff out a MLID quote from a thousand paces and yet still uncritically babble Charlie's nonsense like it's the word of god. Dude is a stopped clock who occasionally happens to be correct in his NVIDIA/Intel hatewagon, and that's given him enough reputability that he's apparently beyond reproach with a significant portion of the Gaming Public (tm) who are just looking for reasons to be upset about NVIDIA/Intel.

There are a lot of conversations about Apple's "monopoly" on smart phones and I always find it so interesting.

I used to use an iPhone, then switched to an android a few years ago, and I felt like there was basically full feature parity between the two of them. I'm not aware of any "killer app" or other use case that elevates one significantly over the other. They both have app stores with all the most popular apps, web browsers, nice cameras, phone calls and messages, etc. So it seems to me like there are plenty of alternatives if you don't want an iPhone that are just as good and often more affordable.

Globally Android has a larger market share than iPhone, but iPhones seem to have a "social" factor that pushes them heavily in certain demographics (particularly any intersection of wealthy, young, and US American). Something about this social factor makes it feel to many people like a complete monopoly with no alternative even though there are tons of alternative phone models made by many other companies.

For me, of course I think it would be great if iPhones were better compatible with things like RCS chat, open app stores, USB instead of proprietary chargers, etc. But I feel like that can all be worked out long term by the market instead of pushing regulation on one specific company. If any of those things bother you just get a non iOS phone, and if they're truly bad things over time more and more people will gravitate away from the company until they change. If Apple wants to make certain decisions around remaining a walled garden I think they should be able to (and there are arguments that their strategy could make their product better for certain audiences rather than worse, even if we might disagree with the take).

The fines Apple is going to collect for intentionally failing to comply with the DMA are going to be of Epic proportions, exceeding any profit they could have gotten by continuing to steal 30% from society. Ready your popcorn buckets for the next few months/years. They will likely be making an example out of Apple - after all Apple and Google are the reason for this legislation to exist in the first place.

> In the non-compliance decision, the Commission may impose on a gatekeeper fines not exceeding 10 % of its total worldwide turnover in the preceding financial year where it finds that the gatekeeper, intentionally or negligently, fails to comply with [...]

Sounds like Apple should exit the European market then. No one is forcing them to do business there, and it only accounts for 10% of their revenue.

Pretty bad timing of Apple if they tried to avoid to look like hindering competition.

Why are investors seemingly blind to the fact that Apple is fighting tooth and nail to protect their App Store revenue (while looking like jackasses in the court of public opinion and pissing off regulators and their relationship with developers) because if the App Store money in their pocket dries up, all hell breaks loose because all of their hardware products are no longer growing. The stock will crash and the executive team will be in trouble.

I think the cracks will start to show the longer big apps don’t come to Vision Pro. Apple has spent the last decade pissing off developers and partners, and just when they need them the most - during the fragile time of getting an entire new platform off the ground - they are doubling down on being assholes.

Every single review I’ve seen mentions that Netflix and YouTube aren’t on Vision Pro. One of the biggest applications of VR is gaming and they’re going nuclear with Epic instead of developing a great partnership to bring high value gaming to Vision Pro. Hubris before the fall.

The investors aren't interested in Apple selling more phones each year than previous. The investors are interested in people using the iPhone as a yearly or bi yearly upgrade cycle product in their life and giving Apple money without much bother and accepting it as a part of culture, especially American.

I wouldn't have thought India, a country that is so price sensitive, would be a place you find so many iPhones. But Indians love what America does and follow them blindly.

The iPhone might not be the next big thing, but for most invested in the cloud and app ecosystem, the choice they have to make is whether you upgrade this year or next. It's like Visa or Mastercard. You can cry all you want about high transaction fees. America is still going to keep using it and give them money.

Investors are loving this trend. Starbucks, Visa, Mastercard, Nike, American Express, Bank of America, Coca Cola and what not. Investors love companies that become part of the culture and despite their horrifying practices, people seem to still go back to them.

This is indeed an analysis that we don't see often enough. Apple is viewed as a "tech company" and tech companies are all about innovation and growth. And their stocks are priced accordingly. But, Apple is actually extremely conservative with product rollouts and new markets (c.f. having essentially missed the boat on AI). They make phones and sell phone apps. They do a few other things, but at the end of the day their balance sheet says "Apple sells phones".

And the phone market is saturated now. Everyone's got one. They keep getting better and people keep them longer. And Apple already has a 50% share of units sold, and a much higher proportion of total revenue. This market is tapped out. It's not going to grow.

Really the mess happening in Europe (mostly in Europe anyway) is best seen as a desperate struggle to push the growth reckoning far enough out for them to roll out a new successful product. They're rent seeking just to keep the balance sheet clean, but it won't work forever.

Really this happens to all big tech companies. Eventually the original product set starts to commoditize and there's nothing left to fill the void.

Pretty sure the savvy investors know this. But why would they kill the golden goose?

Blind? I assumed that the monopoly on iphone app distribution (and the corresponding growth in fee revenue) was why the stock has been so high recently.

This is some spicy shit from Apple:

> “In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them,” Schiller reminds the game maker in the letter dated February 23, 2024. “You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple’s rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance as ‘hot garbage,’ a ‘horror show,’ and a ‘devious new instance of Malicious Compliance.’ And you have complained about what you called ‘Junk Fees’ and ‘Apple taxes.”

Somehow I doubt that the EU competition authority will appreciate Apple’s logic that criticizing their implementation of pro-competition regulation is valid grounds for preventing a competitor from accessing said implementation.

It’s like if your parents forced you to give a slice of your birthday cake to your little brother, and in spite you intentionally cut him a slice with no frosting. When he complains, you go: “No cake for you then!”

If I'm an app developer, am I not allowed to complain about Apple's policies on social media?

https://twitter.com/aarongraves/status/1765441652120834112

Apple’s justification isn’t too unreasonable.

Feels like a mob boss sending a message.

"We own this platform, we make the rules, and we don't care who you are or how big you are, you mess with us we'll terminate your account and revenue stream."

C'mon EU, do something. <poking EU with a stick>

We own this platform, (we built this platform), we make the rules

I don't see the issue with this... it's not like they're exploiting an inherited platform like Oracle with (everything), IBM with Red Hat or Broadcom with VMware.

Seems more to me like someone built a beautiful walled garden where people are walking nicely, and some rowdy pirates are trying to break it down because they see a lot of money inside.

Apple is just acting increasingly stupid. There's no word for it.

It's only stupid if it results in some kind of consequences. If not, then they are just flexing, and they seem fairly confident that there won't be any significant consequences for this kind of behavior. Whether that's true, or just extreme hubris, remains to be seen.

I feel strange having watched from afar as apple abused their users over and over, and then see apple users be surprised and horrified at this more recent behavior.

They have not changed one bit. This was always apple, behavior which everyone who purchased their status symbol focused products at insane markups supported.

Interesting, is there a possibility of something like class-action where iPhone owners sue Apple for restricting access to Fortnite? I bet there should be a plenty of angry gamers.

With all the money Epic has spent, and lost, on this, along with the billions they're making from Fortnite and Unreal, they could have made their own phone and platform by now.

It would be trash like their EGS. No one would use it.

Maybe Epic should just come out with their own Android-based phone and ignore Apple.

EDIT - I don’t mean this flippantly. I really think a gaming phone made by Epic would be fantastic. They have some great games that I enjoy, including Rocket League and Fortnite. Would love to see what they could do with a phone, especially how well they did on GM’s Hummer ( https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21506572/epic-games-unrea... )

If Microsoft would have called their Windows Phone the Xbox Phone and focused it on gaming, I think they would have been way more successful.

Something like Steam Deck? https://www.steamdeck.com/

Sounds like the EU needs to give Apple the Microsoft treatment and threaten to split it apart. Have the App store business be completely separate from everything else

Last I heard, Microsoft is doing great and still in one piece.

The only explanation Apple can give is "Money!!!"

It strikes me as very weird that it supposedly took weeks for Apple management to learn that Epic had acquired a developer account.

Desparate obfuscation in recent PR statements. 24 hours ago, they were more straightforward about ex. getting Epic on a phone call to confirm via voice they'd follow the rules just a few days ago. Back when they were proud of it and thought it'd be smooth sailing.

They got kicked out for willingly breaking the rules in the past. Not for criticizing Apple. Actions have consequences.

From the article:

> Apple said one of the reasons they terminated our developer account only a few weeks after approving it was because we publicly criticized their proposed DMA compliance plan. Apple cited this X post from this thread written by Tim Sweeney. Apple is retaliating against Epic for speaking out against Apple’s unfair and illegal practices, just as they’ve done to other developers time and time again.

The difference is that Apple is now largely no longer in control of the rules, at least in the EU. It seems like they haven't come to terms with that yet.

so apple gave them green light _after_ breaking the rules and decided to go uno reverse after several weeks to red light the epic, because epic criticized apple, lol)

Apple wanting a cut of everything is… well, it's nothing new anyway. We all have our opinions about that, and this event isn't going to change anyone's mind about that.

Apple not trusting Epic is another, and the wording suggests that Apple thinks third parties would agree. What's that about?

Apple doing Apple things.

'You get in the car to go to the store. The car drives you to church instead, because the store has mysteriously exploded.'

https://avaruusmies.com/jokes/if-operating-systems-ran-your-...'

Though I’m in favor of forcing Apple to do certain things (right to repair, sideloading apps, and more), this is one case where I can’t take a side. Epic (and actually Tim Sweeney), for all its bravado and underdog pretense, is a bad actor, a loose cannon and a dishonest player. Epic Games and Tim Sweeney thrive on drama and theatrics, and somehow seem to be driven solely against Apple while not batting an eyelid when it comes to other platforms where it pays 30% (or more?), such as Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo. [1] I have no sympathy for Epic Games as long as Tim Sweeney and his drama goes on. This doesn’t mean that I believe Apple to be innocent. Tim Sweeney has a grudge against Apple. I don’t see anything more in the history of this saga.

[1]: https://daringfireball.net/2020/08/sweeney_hand_waving_game_...

Sweeney is the only one that seems to have the guts, the smarts and is willing to put his money where his mouth is against Apple and other bad actors. Whataboutism about console gaming is frankly laughable as is the notion that they have to fix all problems by the themselves at once or none of them count.

In other news, Apple continues its quest of suicide.

I can't decide who do I hate more? Epic, desperately attempting to portray their acts as Holy sacrifices by being martyred in the hands of blood thirsty, evil Apple corporation or perhaps Apple double downing with malicious compliance, scummy tactics and lording their mob-boss like attitude towards EU and its citizens?

Meanwhile people here are arguing over which sport team they belong to rather than the actual issue at hand which is the fact that computing ownership is being taken away from normal people by tech companies and frankly all of them are at fault (Amazon, Google, Apple, Epic, Ubisoft,..).

You no longer own anything, you have to rent it and smile. You are prohibited from modifying the devices you purchase or even attempt to repair it. Your movies and music libraries can be removed by the whims of the corporation and your books can be deleted should an executive feel like it does not align with the DEI flavor of de jours

My point is this, computing is no longer a niece for nerds and people literally have their lives tied to these systems and devices. We are in serious trouble if strong laws and regulations are not implemented (not only within EU but frankly everywhere) to prevent these corporations taking away people's rights, privacy and freedoms.

I don't know how this will pan out but the silver lining is that it may start a discussion at the world stage regarding these issues.

Things will have to get a lot bleaker before they can even stand a chance of getting better.

At first I was surprised Epic's shareholders tolerate CEO Tim Sweeney – Epic had this all wrapped up, they got a large portion of what they wanted, but Sweeney just couldn't help but keep the drama going, at risk of their business.

But then I realized that Tim Sweeney owns more than half of Epic. If he wants to risk his company for a fracas/kerfuffle, then that is between him and his minority shareholder.

I don't think he's risking anything other than having to pay his team of lawyers. Apple is not a major platform for Epic, in fact earnings from sales outside of Windows and consoles is probably so tiny they wouldn't notice it if it disappeared.

Actually I'm sure Tencent is really glad Tim Sweeney is doing this as they make a bunch of games already eg. pubg mobile (partial ownership there I think). Having an alternative story as an option is probably a strategic benefit for them

Literally all of Epic's biggest shareholders are on board with treating the problems with Apple as more than a "kerfuffle." They've attracted quite a bit of investment in spite of the ongoing lawsuits.

Customer! We won't sell you electricity even if you abide by our stated arbitrary rules because we frankly don't like you and you've said mean things about us.

more empty words from the king of the glasscastle

This is going to be an epic battle. Speak truth to power.

First, it’s weird that anyone would take the side of Epic in any argument.

Second, it’s obvious that no one had actually read the article. Epic admitted that they have deliberately broken the App Store rules. That’s enough to have anyone sanctioned in any system.

Apple are certainly not unimpeachable here, but this blind hatred of Apple is out of control.

At least get the facts close to right before spewing your uninformed BS.

Epic broke the rules 3 years ago, they were reinstated recently cause of the european union decision. They haven't done anything to break the rules except write a tweet complaining about apple. I don't see how apple has any footing in this argument

Even setting aside the dubious morality of Apple's rules on iOS, I feel like I'm going insane watching Apple be maximally aggressive. The EU loves regulating! There's nothing they love more! It seems supremely unwise to give them additional excuses to do something they clearly want to do anyways.

Having worked for many bosses, never ever never undersestimate the power of ego of an executive. It's only second to the ego of a lawyer.

Many of them will tank their company and their client if they get their ego bruised and feel publicly humiliated. Those are hyper competitive people which see live as zero sum game and are trained in life to never, ever, lose a challenge or competition for domination. ESPECIALLY in public.

The myth of a rational businessman is just that - a myth.

Being publicly regulated is exactly that scenario for Apple. There's execs in that very company that are frothing at their mouth in irrational anger ready to throw their weight around and WIN. Stomp on the opponent. SPLAT the unimportant fly that DARED challenge them.

(I'm exaggerating... but not by much. This seems more of an emotional than thoughtful response Apple is doing here.)

> Apple be maximally aggressive

From an observation standpoint seeing how Microsoft behaved in the 90's and onward, they (Apple) are behaving very similarly - almost exactly with what MS did for Windows back then. I have a growing distaste for Apple corporate/mgmt each day even though I am surrounded by their devices.

Regulatory accelerationism. I never thought it would come from Apple.

> watching Apple be maximally aggressive

Sweeney allegedly tweeted that he would breach his contract with Apple. Apple reached out and asked if he was being hysterical for public display. He didn’t clarify. At that point, Epic credibly threatened breach of contract.

This is a commercial dispute between multi-billion dollar companies, both of whom charge outrageous platform fees, both of whom seem to enjoy being dramatic, and both of whom are being maximally aggressive. It’s fair to remain emotionally uninvolved.

This is egregious and deeply disturbing behavior from Apple. At this point it feels wrong to own an iPhone. I'm at a loss for words describing what Tim and their leadership team has done to this company that I used to admire so much.

Couldn't agree more. I think the iPhone 15 Pro may be my last iPhone. Apple's entire reaction to the DMA has left an incredibly bad taste in my mouth.

I used to think these were my devices, but Apple has been making it crystal clear lately that they consider them to be their devices.

"We own the customer" is the new mantra of Apple.

Maybe it was always that way, with the iPod and iTunes, etc.

Thankfully I've never felt that way when using a Mac.

The fact that Apple (the 3rd party in the interaction between you and the developer) has a say at all in what people do with their computers at all is already egregious. I couldn't imagine letting someone else control my computers like that.

They're addicted to bad revenue here.

Once they started with the App Store revenue and especially taking a cut on all transactions, they were locked in. It's a public company so number must always go up. If number doesn't go up, executives are gone and replaced with people who will make number go up. That means it's impossible for them to back out of the App Store revenue channel. They'll have to be forced out by government action, in which case they can write it off as unavoidable and appease the shareholders and maybe not be replaced.

The basic principle here is that when a company takes on a revenue stream, it becomes addicted to it and it's incredibly difficult to give that revenue stream up even if it's destructive to other aspects of the company or brand. This is very closely related to the innovators' dilemma. In fact that might be seen a special case of the same failure mode.

If Apple ever goes really into advertising, that'll really be the end of them as a good brand. Advertising revenue destroys everything it touches. It's possible that they could recover from this debacle but a pivot into ads is the end.

I just don't understand what Apple expects out of the situation at this point. What's the best-case scenario here, that the EU will say "yeah that checks out" and let Apple have their way after all? This is going to backfire horribly.

No offense but if this is what broke the camel's back for you then you seem like live in a different planet.

Ummm lol. So now sideloading is allowed (with lots of costs associated mind you) and if someone wants to use it Apple will just kick them off the platform? :')

So first malicious compliance with all the inflated costs and then they don't even allow people to use it. I really hope the EU will crack down on this BS and force Apple to allow real sideloading.

But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.

> But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.

I love my iPhone and my Mac. They are great devices. I’ve been using Apple products happily despite having pretty few acquaintance with the Apple brand (which I feel incredibly arrogant).

All of those stories about the DMA and the total lack of good faith from Apple when it comes to respect the rules are making me strongly reconsider buying new Apple products in the future. In fact I’m starting to regret my investment in a Air M2 last year because while it’s not new that Apple consider my devices to be their own, they are not even trying to act like it’s not the case anymore. They are actively and publicly fighting against my (their customer) interests.

There’s no way the EU allows Apple’s interpretation of the DMA after they did this, Apple really made a mistake here. As you say, how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON?

I agree the mobile ecosystem is cancerous, I have never given a dime to Apple for anything but their MacBooks for work reasons.

The thing that gets most on my nerves is the ridiculous "protecting users security and privacy".

Because if I go along this line of thinking then the conclusion is that they don't give a damn about it on the Mac line because there I can install what I want.

It's not up to Apple to decide how I use their products and I will never ever buy their phones albeit I need to use one to test mobile websites and applications for work.

They’ve already approved others for third-party App Store implementations:

https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/112039139930789909

Call me when Xbox allows side loading.

Idk, subjectively it feels as end of Apple we all know.

Clear stagnation in terms of innovation; no new fundamental interface (no smart glasses, AVP looks too expensive and too narrow); abandon on car project; AI for Apple is nowhere close to others; sales decrease; Apple Watch sales ban; Epic Games court; DMA — after taking a leading position at the market, Apple clearly fails to offer anything new and instead invest too much resources into protecting their market position.

Wonder what will replace Apple. Will we see a slow stagnation here or radically new interface for human-to-technology interaction is around the corner?

Apple has consistently made laptops and development environments that creative types enjoy and admire. It’s too mad our economic system is setup to only care about infinite growth and monopolization at Apple’s size. It’s too bad just “being a great maker of great tools for great people” isn’t possible when you’re publicly traded.

> AVP looks too expensive and too narrow

I bought the first generation and agree with these points, but boy is it really cool tech. I thought it’d be super gimmicky and dumb before I got it, I changed my mind within a couple of hours after using them.

I ended up sending mine back, but only because I bought them to develop vOS apps for it and simply don’t have the time after taking on a new client. I really hope they make a second generation and continue improving on it, I already know I’m going to buy it.

(I know it’s ironic hoping they’ll make more of their fledgling platform after I just sent mine back and potentially helped kill it, but I really loved it.)

Maybe they should make cars.

> Idk, subjectively it feels as end of Apple we all know.

You do rationally realize the cognitive dissonance in your subjective feeling, right?

A company that is accused of abusing their market position, competitors trying to break into their platform, isn't an indicator that the company is close to an end at all.

If it were really the end of Apple, you'd see something like "Epic withdraws legal claims against Apple due to dwindling interest in developing for iOS platforms".

Here we go again...

> According to Epic, Apple reportedly told the company that it’s “a threat to their ecosystem.”

Note they're not saying Epic is a security threat or has a product that endangers Apple customers. Instead, they're calling Epic, the company itself, a threat to Apple's ecosystem.

This quote makes sense, if you replace "ecosystem" with "monopoly."

To be more specific, it's likely that Epic is a threat to Apple's business/technical ability to steer/shape/profit from the iOS ecosystem.

I think it is <insert-expletive> to make Epic out to be the villain.

At the same time:

> This quote makes sense, if you replace "ecosystem" with "monopoly."

In the US, iPhone has a 57.93% market share. As of 2023, Android has a 70.29% global market share.

Actually, replace "ecosystem" with "revenues".

Monopolies are not a bad thing, except when they are enforced with violence=government.

Fortunately no one forces you to use Apple's products.

Clearly the recent 1.8B Euro fine the EU levied against Apple didn't send a message. Perhaps the EU needs to ratchet it up by an order of magnitude.

More likely, Apple needs to withdraw entirely from the EU and see what happens.

Quite an authoritarian take.

There seems to be a libertarian slant to a lot of the comments on this. It reads as if most people believe they have an inalienable right to extend Apple’s products. In other words, it doesn’t matter what I do, what I say, or how I treat Apple, I have an inalienable right to extend their platform. A pretty bold take in my opinion.

It's not Apple's platform. It's mine. My device, my platform. I allow Apple to install software on my device, but it's my device. I own it, full stop.

This whole idea that a company can sell you a product but still retain exclusive ownership and decision making over that thing that they sold you needs to die. It's such an abusive relationship and deeply anti-user.

i mean, sounds fine? if i buy a physical product, i must be able to do whatever i want to do with it, no? who are apple to decide what i do with a device once i own it?

I've spent ~$7000 on Apple products last year.

I think it'll be $0 this year and going forward.

Tired of this kind of crap. (Not only this, but Apple's behavior with EU, etc.)

Who you going to replace them with that's better/same level of ecosystem/user experience? Genuinely interested.

I ditched iphones for a Google Pixel 6 when it came out.

Ditched my macbook for a Windows 10 beast machine running linux mint in VMWare Player. Flawless.

I had _zero_ issues ditching apple. Especially since everyone I speak to uses Whatsapp anyways. This "green bubble" thing never affected me.

I am an Apple customer because I have loved using a Mac since before Steve Jobs returned to Apple and made it a trendy luxury item. But I can no longer support with my money "90s Microsoft 2.0".

Je suis Sweeney!

-- sent from my iPhone

> Apple said one of the reasons they terminated our developer account only a few weeks after approving it was because we publicly criticized their proposed DMA compliance plan.

Not a valid reason to terminate it.

In some ways it makes me question if it's impossible to have one without the other - can you have a company that is as obsessive about quality as Apple at the same time as one that won't attempt to exert monopolistic control over its whole ecosystem? Are these two sides of the same coin?

I'd like to embrace something like the Vision Pro. But as long as it's an iPad strapped to your face fully locked to this controlled ecosystem that I fundamentally disagree with, I can't stomach it. There's something visceral about giving a company that exerts this obnoxious level of control complete control of every photon entering your eyeballs.

So Apple, in case you ever care, you are at -1 Vision Pro users.

An obsession over quality would have Apple open the door to better audio services like Spotify to integrate with the phone's audio database for instance. Or have Kindle like apps let their user have the better purchasing experience. Or better browsers to have deeper system integration. Better messaging platforms interoperate with iMessage. A 3.5mm jack to have the best latency and highest potential audio quality. The list goes on and on.

Apple values quality, but not above everything else. This is obvious and totally normal for a company, it's just weird it bears repeating so much.

But this isn't about quality at all.

It's about Apple trying to milk the system for all it's worth.

You can absolutely build a great product w/o trying to maximize profits to the extreme. That's just frowned upon in the current business world.

Apple views every instruction executing on iPhone as something they own, control, and tax.

It'd be cute if iPhone was a toy used by a million people. However, mobile computing has become a cornerstone of modern communications and societal function. You use these devices to book flights, buy goods, order food (at restaurants), date, do banking, send texts, emails, -- literally everything.

And Apple controls and taxes all of it. All the innovation. All the connections. Everything.

And they control how you write and deploy that software. It's a game of constantly jumping through hoops and stressing out over release trains.

With a press of a button, a change in policy, Apple can nuke your product from orbit. And there's not a thing you can do.

And Google, even with their "unlocked APK installs", isn't really any different.

This is a new kind of monopoly. A solid chunk of the connective tissue of our planet and species is controlled, taxed, and ruled over by two overlord companies.

I am so glad the Internet itself isn't like this. Except, these devices practically are the internet for many or most folks. So these to, in a way, do control and tax the internet.

Quality and openness are not in tension at all. I can buy cheap third party brake pads for a BMW, it doesn't make the OEM any less "obsessive" about quality.

>In the past, Epic has denigrated Apple’s developer terms, including the Developer Program License Agreement (DPLA), as a prelude to breaking them.

>Given that pattern, Apple recently reached out directly to Mr. Sweeney to give him an opportunity to explain why Apple should trust Epic this time and allow Epic Games Sweden AB to become an active developer. Mr. Sweeney’s response to that request was wholly insufficient and not credible.

From Apple’s letter to Epic.

This will not fly in the EU.

I am actually very annoyed about their behavior. My next phone will likely not be an iPhone. All the paid apps are subscription based now anyway, it's quite easy to switch.

I'm totally ok with their behavior. My next phone will likely be an iPhone.

If I wasn't okay with it, then I'd buy one of the multiple other options.

There are alternatives to Android even. They're terrible phones with terrible platforms: that's why people don't want them.

Apple makes an excellent phone with an excellent platform. I'm fine with letting them do that to the maximum degree they're able.

Yikes, you might be disappointed:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/google-asks-judg...

I hear Huawei makes nice phones.

I may get rid of my iPhone, this is just horrible continued behavior on Apple’s part. Nothing can be worth the damage this is doing to their reputation

I'd rather people dump Apple products over their anti-repair practices or the whole concept of locked-downd devices tied to monopolistic App Stores, rather than the Apple vs Epic vs EU fight.

I have been feeling the same way. Apple has been dropping the ball a lot lately. This whole malicious compliance thing they are doing with the EU is childish. Apple 100% should have lost the court case to Epic the same way Google did.

What even is a phone in the future anyway.

apple cars, vr, losing out big time in china. cheerio tim time?

At least thanks to Unreal engine and their content in the PC space, Epic is big enough to survive this, but think of poor small indie devs who can have their revenue streams shut down at any time because $REASON and have no way of fighting back.

Apple needs to be brought down a peg or two.

> (...) the U.S. judgment expressly provides that "Apple has the contractual right to terminate (...)

Yeah good luck with that in an EU court.

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729 (1 hour ago, 72 comments)

Normally we'd merge into the earlier thread, but in this case I'm going to merge those comments hither, because the current submission is (presumably) a more neutral article.

Mysteriously not on the front page.

That hot tempered decision will cost them a lot of money. They were already in a bad situation for essentially making the alternative stores worthless but cutting off Epic over a few tweets will further cement the idea that there's a competition problem going on here, this is also directly contradicting the DMA.

Apple makes incredible products, but their teenage angst corporate temper tantrums are vomit inducing. Might be time to vote with my dollar on other tech.

I just finished the last episode of The Talk Show podcast, where John Gruber says that Apple doesn’t hold a grudge and is only doing things because they make business sense. He said that because Apple approved Epic’s account and that they would be allowed their own App Store. I already that it was a bad take, but this shows it.

I find that Gruber occasionally has some interesting insight but it’s often hard to take him seriously these days — he’s effectively an unofficial PR outlet for Apple.

(Fun fact: he co-created Markdown with Aaron Swartz)

Edit: Swartz not Schwartz

John Gruber @gruber@mastodon.social ‪@stroughtonsmith @macrumors So much for my theory that Apple was making nice with Epic.‬ https://mastodon.social/@gruber/112050165133240095

Apple doesn’t hold a grudge

Nvidia

There is no point having rules and contracts if you aren't going to enforce them.

It is inarguable that Epic broke the terms of the contract. They could've simply done what Spotify and others did and lobby governments whilst honouring the terms of the agreement that they voluntarily chose to sign. Instead Epic chose to be petty in order to prove a point.

Is Spotify banned ? No. And they are 100x a competitor to Apple than Epic is.

Really curious what Apple's end game is here, they must know that being this anticompetitive will bite them pretty hard in the long term.

I wish there was button I could press so the eu/courts would address this immediately. So I don’t have to wait months/years.

The raw emails are linked at the bottom of the post.

Phil Schiller accuses Epic of intentionally violating its agreements and concludes "Please tell us why we should trust Epic this time." Epic founder Tim Sweeney replies that Epic "will comply" and offers to provide "any specific further assurances."

Finally, Apple's lawyers tell Epic's lawyers that Apple is terminating the account because a judgement in Epic v Apple says they can, and that Tim did't sufficiently plead his case in his reply to Phil.

So apple are now deciding who can be an App Store. That’s not going to work out well for them.

We need % of revenue based punishment for such acts to see fast this attitude can change.

What a monster big tech has become.

It is probably a good description of what society has become, there are a lot of people who go on repeating that these big tech are just corporations for profit and don’t have to signal any good intention, because it doesn’t make them any profit, and being bad doesn’t make them lose any profit, because we’ve become just a bunch of ignoring consumers going after the next gadget blindly, these companies are shit, because it doesn’t cost them anything anymore

What I keep wondering is why iSheeps don’t complain, like they’re the ones who are buying these overpriced crap, then being squeezed of 30% every time they get an app, who they think is going to pay for the apple tax at the end of the day

I wonder why Apple doesn't open up. Or else just switch to a Costco model where membership means they get to dictate what’s sold at what margin using which credit card network?

Is the end game to force regulation on everyone (Google, etc) and then switch to a Costco model themselves?

In the immortal words of Rod Blagojevich, “I've got this thing and it's fucking golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for fuckin' nothing. I'm not gonna do it.”

Money.

Why give up 30% of everything on your store?

PG said that a previous tweet by Tim Sweeney is one of the reasons..

https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1765431238985187525

I wouldn't pick a side in this one... it looks to me like there are two bad guys here, and I hope they both get taken down a peg.

Dismantling Apple's Appstore monopoly would positively impact the freedom of users and developers.

Isn't Apple providing side loading for customers in Europe now? Sure, Apple is being petty, but I thought this is was what Epic asked for. Can anyone ELI5 this one?

No. There is no sideloading at all.

Apple very begrudgingly allowed creation of alternative AppStores (marketplaces) instead, which are still completely under Apple’s technical control, and still go through Apple’s review.

Apple requires having a 1 million dollar credit line to allow opening a 3rd party AppStore, so consumers or small devs can’t just bypass Apple’s AppStore.

You still need a developer account and application to be signed by apple in order to be able to side load it. Whether that requirement is legal remains to be seen.

All side loaded apps still need to go through Apple notarization. It's malicious compliance from Apple.

They aren't actually allowing sideloading, but the ability to install "marketplaces", which can only be provided by verified developers under very strict rules regarding government. It's a huge disappointment.

I would think this is a money game where it will force Epic to become a European developer/entity instead of just an American developer, to access the DMA market.

More hoops and more BS is entirely on brand for Apfel in this exercise.

Didn’t they only terminate the Swedish account?

Shielding the Epic game store under a different account is not the bravest move from Epic.

I would ban other Epic accounts if I was Apple.

Which Epic Games account would you prefer they use, the American one?

If you want to talk about cowardly behavior, we should discuss Apple's anti-steering policy. At the root of this brouhaha is an indefensible double-standard that Apple cannot sustain in a fair market.

epic is being a dick. you don't usually be a dick like this and expect zero repercussions.

this is akin to apple and samsung making up but one party or both parties running to the media and calling each other a 'ch*nk, slant eyes' or whatever colorful language Samsung would paint the american apple...

you can insult in business speak! it's common, but epic decided on normal speak --- is it because sweeney is pulling an Elon? Or is this a sign there are others movements the public is not aware that epic is doing? I would bet on the latter.

I don't think this is a big deal. But I do wonder if fortnite is struggling more than expected and maybe there's an options play I should begin looking into

Sounds like they violated a non disparagement clause and signaled they will not adhere to policy. All they had to do is keep quiet and launch to minimize their liability.

Guess they will need to fight in the EU to see if they can claw back.

Apple's lawyer states no such thing, only that they have the right to revoke anyone's developer account for any time and for any reason. They believe Epic will violate their rules in the future and affect iOS users' privacy and safety, so they banned them.

I know this is the internet, and no one actually reads the linked articles, but I really wish people would do so before weighing in. You did not need to make up a non-disparagement clause.

A non-disparagement clause is not valid under the DMA.

> Sounds like they violated a non disparagement clause

Where do you get this? No third-party developer is under such legal obligation.

Apple should get out of the European market entirely. Their product offering is literally incompatible with the laws that govern EU commerce.

There's plenty of money to be made in Asia/Pacific and the Americas.

Apple's walled-garden approach is innovative especially on the security and stability fronts and anyone who doesn't like that or wants alternative launchers should jailbreak their ios device or just use Android, which does fit better into EU market.

Apple has literally never cared and should never care what outside bodies (including to a large degree -- their own customers) want their products to be. It's what has made them unique in the past.

If Apple backs down on their vision then they are no longer Apple.

This seems like a publicity stunt to me. No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple. The terms allow them to remove you for any reason and not disclose it.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com