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Comment by c22 | Hacker News Reader

The pedals do not behave the same.

You mean you don't press the left one to stop, and the right one to go?

No, it’s the feedback loop. You feel the hydraulic system for the brakes and the steering. If you have an accelerator cable then you feel that tension as well… but the accelerator feel is less important.

You don't feel the hydraulic feedback in the brake pedal (just the ABS buzzing), and gas pedals in many modern EFI vehicles feel more like foot-operated potentiometers than throttle linkages.

> gas pedals in many modern EFI vehicles feel more like foot-operated potentiometers than throttle linkages.

In my EV it literally is a potentiometer. I really miss the feel of a physical throttle linkage on the snow and ice, I feel it's much more difficult to judge grip.

Also, since it's just a pot, I don't know why there's not a speed mode for it, it to make it operate the cruise control speed set-point rather than torque.

> I really miss the feel of a physical throttle linkage on the snow and ice, I feel it's much more difficult to judge grip.

The throttle is separated from the wheels/ground by the transmission and the whole engine, which makes me wonder if the response you felt probably was a combination of eg rpm/physical vibration and a few other factors. It should be possible to recreate these even in an EV, then.

The throttle feeling of a cable operated throttle is more about how much air the engine wants to breathe. I’d say it’s kinda still related to rpm, but it might be a completely different feeling on a turbo engine, that I haven’t experienced.

On most turbo engines these days they are electronically operated and have no linkage anyway. That's even the case in most modern petrol cars where people think there still is a linkage. And that trend has been going on for at least 20 years.

Linkages were out when electronic stability control was introduced.

Right, but how does the changes in engine wanting to breathe manifest through the throttle pedal feel? Changes of vibrations? Changes of resistance? Changes in lag from pushing the pedal to the engine responding? Perhaps on the direct throttle car you could simply hear the engine better?

It was probably sound and vibration in combination with less lag.

We had an older non-turbo car before the EV.

It changes resistance. My dad had an old, full mechanical/hydraulic automatic car and it was an extremely visible feeling from the throttle pedal when it changed gears or when it engaged the extra clutch (it had torque converter and some extra clutch on top of it for fuel efficiency)

The sound of the engine also changes greatly depending on the throttle position and engine load but for me it was more audible and I couldn’t feel it from the throttle. Modern cars are pretty good with sound insulation from the engine, but I’ve heard some “sporty” cars direct the intake sound to the cabin for giving the noisy sports car experience to the driver without being obnoxious with the exhaust side.

There is a noticeable difference in feel between ICE cars with physical throttle cables and those with electronic throttles…the drive-by-wire models have a very small amount of lag between pedal input and engine response. If you’re attuned to it, or drive “spiritedly”, the effect is quite noticeable. I think mainstream cars mostly switched over around 20 years ago, I remember learning about it when I googled for why the accelerator pedals in new cars felt so weird to me.

I think there are a few reasons for it, one of which is simply increasing efficiency by smoothing the accelerator input a bit. I’ve only driven an electric car a few times, so I’m not sure if they also have this delay, but I would expect they do.

> one of which is simply increasing efficiency by smoothing the accelerator input a bit

Right, it feels very much like I'm just changing a set-point. Putting the car in eco mode makes it very noticeable, but even though it's less noticeable in sport mode it's still not the same.

Many modern cars have a turbo that makes this almost impossible to tell. It almost feels irrelevant, compared to planning ahead for the inevitable wait for the turbo to build pressure.

Multiple cross-checked hall effect sensors, hopefully. Same concept though.

That's what I had thought, but mechanic that replaced the throttle pedal assembly called it a potentiometer (had a weird pulsing in the force feedback).

Of course, could be he was wrong.

I read the "unintended acceleration" report from NASA. The Toyota cars involved had two independent hall effect sensors. Hopefully there's been no backsliding since then.

Every vehicle I've ever driven since I learnt to drive 20 years ago has had an electronic throttle body, a digital accelerator and ABS. Welcome to 2024.

I did learn to drive manual, but I'd never buy another car like that. Maybe it's fun for racing, but for every day driving, automatic requires less effort and longevity isn't a concern today.

"Old" cars tend to have brake pedals where the pressure is used to judge how much force you are applying - find the point where it bites and then modulate the force. Many "modern" cars brake pretty much as soon as the pedal moves, and the amount of braking is determined by the position of the pedal, rather than the force applied at a certain point. I have no idea how they do this, but whenever I switch to a car with the "old" style, I always end up braking way too hard until my brain recalibrate.

Around here the middle one is to stop, left is to switch gears. Except in go-karts, those only have 2 pedals.

Remember to press both left and center pedals to stop.

Manuals proliferate in EU, but we have also always had automatics on the road - and a significant increase since DSGs hit the market - so no one who has driven a few normal cars would be surprised by two pedals in an electric.

Using the clutch before you need to when braking is bad form. The engine will assist in braking if you let it, especially in the low gears, and this doesn't use any fuel -- dumping the clutch immediately consumes more fuel to keep the engine running. Put the brake pedal in first, and then the clutch pedal as you approach idle RPMs.

> Remember to press both left and center pedals to stop

To stop, not to slow down.

It's still not correct. You press the brake to stop. You press the clutch to not stall. They're separate concerns, or maybe more accurately one is only a response to the other - you clutch as you're about to stop because otherwise you'll stall, you don't brake and clutch at the same time because you decide to stop and not stall at the same time.

Yes: to STOP. Your answer is just pedantry.

One can also just put the car in neutral and let it roll to stop occasionally correcting with the break pedal, if we want to be pedantic.

If you really want to nit, the only function of a clutch is to slip during start from standstill. All other steps of driving can be done without touching the clutch pedal and with less wear, including shifting and stopping. That's just not a nice way to drive.

If you don't press the clutch during a stop, you risk increasing your stopping distance both due to engine inertia and due to it fighting back below idle - especially in a diesel van. We only have muscle memory when we panic, and it's bad if someone is taught in a way that makes them miss a pedal.

That's also part of why you are taught with stick over here - better be trained to press a pedal too much than a pedal too little. If you do take the license in an automatic, you get a mark on your license disallowing you from driving stick.

I think "proliferate" is the wrong word. Automatics seem to be on the rise - I learned on a manual but have only been driving automatics for a decade. They're also more accessible and I'm not sure there are any EVs that emulate manual transmission as there's literally no point. So if anything, manuals are largely on the way out.

I don't know where you live, but if you're feeling smug about being in Europe, Europe is going automatic. 30% and rising if I recall correctly plus EVs don't need manual transmissions anymore.

Except DD2 and KZ, well true, they only have 2 pedals, but they also have a hand operated clutch. But you only need it to start the kart. You shift without the clutch, and for starting you can have it in neutral and just push it in first when you have build a little speed and sit in the kart. I suppose if you have one with an electronic starter you need it.

Nor does the steering yoke.

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