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> My experience was before lived in Asia (USA only) I thought drinking was bad (bar fights, drunk driving deaths, etc...)
Wow, I guess I just don't hang out with the same kinds of people you do (USA as well). I don't think I've ever witnessed a bar fight, and no one I know has been involved in a drunk driving crash (on either side of it). And yet I've done plenty of drinking (I don't remember much of my 30s because of it, sadly).

Instead, drinking around food was a place to get to know people.*

I agree that alcohol is a good social lubricant, and sure, it can be an aid (or even a shortcut) to social bonding. But this article made me believe that, in some East Asian cultures, alcohol is pretty much required to get them to communicate effectively about certain things. That seems... not particularly safe or healthy, not just physically, but emotionally too.

> I don't think I've ever witnessed a bar fight, and no one I know has been involved in a drunk driving crash

I grew up drinking and lived in alcohol culture(s). At 25 I moved to another state, didn't drink and mostly circulated in non-drinking circles.

Before 25 I saw plenty of alcohol fueled fights. They weren't in bars but neither was I. I've been on both sides of drunk crashes (not driving) as were (possibly most of) my friends. As for family & friends, they ranged ~evenly from non-drinkers to heavy.

After 25 I saw few drinking related issues. I knew vastly more non-drinkers after 25 and can't recall any being hit by drunk drivers (unlike before 25).

> I've been on both sides of drunk crashes (not driving) as were (possibly most of) my friends.

That is a crazy statistic that would be a clear signal for me to move away.

It describes much of American suburbia, regrettably... I grew up in South eastern Pennsylvania and it seemed more like 'when' not 'if' people would get a DUI.

When there's not much to do and you live in an area designed for cars, a shocking amount of people will just not give AF and drink drive. Can't afford cabs but can afford the bar.

I’ve experienced the same in Australian suburbia. Awful drinking culture and pre-Uber taxi unreliability means a lot of people drink and drive.

It is more common in low socio-economic areas but still existing in all classes. Hell, our state treasurer lost his job after hitting multiple cars on his way home. https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/troy-b...

I grew up in an isolated location with a big drinking culture. As a youngster I wasn’t aware that there were places to move to without this problem. You could choose to avoid the drinking culture, but that was basically social suicide in both University and in Industry.

Plus there should be some fraction of people, even in Japan, capable of talking frankly and directly to each other, without needing alcohol...

Or is that somehow discouraged too?

I think the social norms are such that doing that while not specifically in a socializing event is low-class. Probably it's fine between peers in a blue-collar environment, or in high school.

It's the same in Denmark. It's basically required to get Danes to open up emotionally but it's destructive because the emotional opening-up doesn't carry over back across the veil to sobriety.

For a people who were once Vikings, they're incredibly non-confrontational. If you have a difficult conversation with them and they're sober there's a high chance they simply never speak to you again.

I don't really think alcohol is the answer to constructing a society, especially given its other negative health effects.

My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects.

In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society.

Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might actually make unmasking look like a fight, flight, fawn…

> My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction

Just a counterthought:

If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D

Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego under influence than when they are sober.

The ego was always there. It was repressed by social norms and intoxicants can release those constraints.

As a “boss” I actually like when people challenge me, including calling me an “idiot.” I’ve gone as far to tell people to feel free to tell me to, “fuck off” if I’m getting something wrong. It’s all about intent and trust. If we can’t be honest things don’t work.

not all bosses are like you

So alcohol has the added benefit of distinguishing competent leaders from incompetent ones?

Allowing your colleagues to ridicule you doesn’t make you a competent leader.

Being able to accept and adapt to criticism does.

Yes, the point is that it’s reducing the anxiety to unmask.

Your boss may in fact be an asshole and unmasking would make you feel more incautious about being yourself, which might mean a narcissistic outburst from all your pent up frustration.

My friend used to work for a company headquartered in eastern Europe. The first time his office had an off-site they busted out a handle and said 'okay, no talking about work until this is finished'. The idea was they wouldn't trust you until you were drunk enough everyone could be sure you were too inebriated to hide your true feelings or thoughts.

Terribly unhealthy but it supposedly accomplished it's purpose

But doesn't that - starting young - simply encourages intoxicants as a prerequisite to any opening up or social contact at all - rather than helping people communicate better and see each other better. That is, it's a crutch and NOT training or re-education.

Other communities strive to make communication safer and full of good examples which helps get over excessive shyness. Always seemed a better direction to me.

That’s precisely what it does.

Yes fully open, healthy attachment recognizing, empathy filled communities, are leaps and bounds healthier than ones with pathologically traumatized people coping with that with medication/intoxication.

I think the "with food" bit is underrated. Bar/pub food in the West is crappy almost by definition (the occasional gastropub notwithstanding) and many/most people don't eat anything at all, while if you go drinking in Tokyo, food is an absolutely critical part of the izakaya (Japanese pub) experience.

It's also quite socially acceptable for women to go to an izakaya and drink oolong tea instead of alcohol all night long. The real social barrier for women is the next round of entertainment, which in sales circles very often entails prostitution in some form or another.

At least here in Australia you get pretty decent food at pubs I mean it's not going to blow your socks off but any pub worth it's name will serve a decent Chicken Schnitzel or Parmigiana. It's the high end hipster bars that tend not to do any food.

As a rule of thumb the more blue collar the pub the better the food will be - Builders Clubs and Trade Union associated places tend to have the best food followed by Sports clubs. These places have their own issues though namely poker/slot machines (Gambling is a big problem in this country).

I think the differences are mostly cultural I have zero desire to go out drinking with people from my workplace. We have exactly one social event a year - which is the work Christmas Party and that is a fairly tame event.

The RSLs I've been to in Australia also had decent food for a great price.

They're officially for veterans I believe but the ones in smaller towns tend to accept everyone because there isn't that much else around.

food at izakaya is a shared experience. Ordering dishes together, sharing, often getting beer or sake in bottles and pouring a glass for each other.

afaik, bar food most western places, even if it's good, is ordered for yourself and so way less social

I don't really see how this is the case, every single nice restaurant also has a bar and bar area, it's not like you have to go to Buffalo Wild Wings or something.

That's right, you have separate areas for dining (the restaurant) and drinking (the bar), and you choose one or the other, or at best sample both.

In a Japanese izakaya, they're inseparable, you eat while you drink.

Usually the only difference is style of seating. The food and drink menu is the same

I think it's less about alcohol and more about how individual cultures and society evolve and create third places. Alcohol can be part of that (such as in pubs or even Romans having engaged in a bit of drinking at the bathhouse) but you also had examples like coffee houses in the 17th century. I think the problem arises when the amount of third places available narrows to strictly a culture around drinking, which increasingly becomes the focus rather than the social aspect.

Now drinking is healing. Oh, brother.

Taking "beer is liquid bread" to the next level.

As long as the "big man in the room takes a shot, everyone takes a shot" rule isn't maliciously invoked, you have functional ALDH genetics, aren't a woman, etc.

> A recent anime had a line "drinking is healing" meant that's where you let go of your worries and you heal relationships.

Which anime?

I believe it's Frieren. Quite good one, actually.

The episode with the red headed kid having flashbacks about the ice cream?

I didn’t quite have the same takeaway but I suppose that’s one way to look at it.

It is an excellent anime however. I suspect it will go down as one of the best anime’s of this decade. Story is great, premise is great, and now at the current episodes, the fighting animation is getting some more love as well. I’m hyped for how it will eventually wrap up!

(in western firms, compare "what gets said in Powerpoint" vs "what gets said on Slack")

As everyone is forced to lower their guard, people get to really know one another..

Isn't this obvious? Coffee and drugs either. Even if drugs were harmless for the health they could probably be prohibited because of the sudden changes a society will experience.