The Telechron master station clock was used to maintain power grid frequency
spectrum.ieee.org
spectrum.ieee.org
As an example, imagine a frictionless generator with no load, spinning at 60 Hz. The rotating mass of the generator stores kinetic energy, and its windings are ready to convert that to electrical energy. Attaching an electrical load slows the rotation unless something is done to replenish that stored kinetic energy.
On a larger scale, loads are switching on and off all the time. Power plant operators need time to react, because adjusting the throttle isn't instantaneous. A natural gas generator might take seconds to throttle up or down; adjusting a nuclear power plant could take a while. In the meantime, energy is drawn from the buffered kinetic energy of every generator on the grid. They are all rotating in sync because every generator is also a motor.
The frequency of the grid is the signal everyone uses to know whether generation matches consumption, averaged over second or minutes or hours.
IIRC the USA grid SLAs are/were not a simple 60 Hz but 60 times n peaks over some period (10 seconds?) dating back to the era of synchronous electric clocks bc changing load could provide some wobble. I am sure it’s possible to provide tighter conformance these days but I wonder if it matters.
* https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03062...
And the economics of nuclear - enormous fixed costs, minimal fuel costs - encourages utilities to run them near full power. So they'll have relatively little spare generating capacity, regardless of their load following characteristics.
OTOH, a gas turbine generating plant is essentially a turboprop airplane engine, with the propeller replaced by a large generator. 1950's mechanical control technology can adjust the throttle on a ~1-second time scale as the load on the grid changes.
And the economics of gas turbines - quick & cheap to build, expensive to run - encourages utilities to run them (or not) as demand requires. So they'll usually have lot of spare generating capacity, to meet demand surges.
edit: I should note there's a sweetspot, as the neutrons have to have enough speed to overcome the repulsive force in order to enter the nucleus. Thus the cross-section has a maximum at some energy (speed), and it varies a lot between elements and isotopes.
Occasionally you might need to get a few more units online with fast load, transmission trips, etc but those events are infrequent enough to be well within the ability of humans to manage, especially with old trelatively small power networks.
https://www.aurecongroup.com/-/media/files/downloads-library...
but the power conversion control system is relatively slow, taking hundreds of nanoseconds to respond (ten thousand times faster than a few milliseconds). the battery chemistry itself responds enormously faster than that when the current drawn from it changes; the only thing that limits the electrochemical response is the capacitance of the electrical double layer, which in a battery (as opposed to a supercapacitor) is on the order of one nanofarad per ampere. so the tiny changes in the overpotential that turn the electrochemical reactions on or off can take place in well under a single nanosecond
so saying 'chemical batteries that can react in milliseconds' is understating the speed by a factor of ten million. that's like saying 'jet planes that can fly meters per day', 'supercomputers that can do dozens of multiplications per minute', or 'skyscrapers that can reach tens of microns in height'
I checked your analogies for jet planes and skyscrapers, and found them to be well within an order of magnitude of ten million, but you're off on your supercomputer analogy by a factor somewhere in the range of a billion.
I couldn't find a hard definition of what constitutes a supercomputer. The bottom of the Top 500 list is in the single-digit petaflop range and an RTX 4090 has 70 or 80 single-precision teraflops, and presumably you need more than a handful of graphics cards to constitute a supercomputer, so let's say 1 petaflop is our threshold for a supercomputer.
The ratio of a petaflop to 12 flops/minute is 5e15, or 5 million billion. Saying "a factor of ten million is like saying 'supercomputers that can do dozens of multiplications per minute'" is like saying 'the moon orbits meters above the Earth's surface'.
unlike the other examples, the category of 'supercomputer' has shifted over time. initially, i was thinking of a cray-1, which is the machine that popularized the term 'supercomputer' https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=supercomputer&.... it was only about 160 megaflops, which is ten million times 960 calculations per minute. that wouldn't normally be described as 'dozens'; it's about an order of magnitude high. so i should have done my calculations a bit more carefully
up to the late 90s, when the term 'supercomputer' had largely fallen out of use, top-end supers were still in the low-digit gigaflops: https://www.hpcwire.com/1997/04/04/tera-mta-computer-posts-b...
you are of course correct that current machines are many orders of magnitude faster than that, and even a single video card is about three orders of magnitude faster
That's because the control loop for a grid battery doesn't work the way you probably expect. The grid is effectively an infinite sink, so the voltage and frequency you observe "is what it is". You can't change it[^1], so you can't use voltage feedback from the output of your SMPS to drive the PWM. If you tried to do that with any kind of PID loop, you'd always be pinned at either maximum charge rate or maximum discharge rate[^2].
The correct way to do it is with an inner loop that will target a phase angle between grid voltage and your current. An outer loop (with a longer time constant) will set that target angle by comparing the measured grid frequency to a schedule.
> 100ms is 6 entire cycles of a 60-hertz sine wave
Yes, and?
You're measuring a sine wave, not a square with fast edges. Any voltage noise on the line is going to influence the zero-crossing and thus the measured frequency (which drives your battery controller). If you try have your controller do cycle-by-cycle corrections, you're again going to have your battery always at maximum charge or maximum discharge.
[^1] When Tesla's battery in Australia "saved the grid" when Loy Yang tripped offline, it dumped 150MW into the grid so that the rate of change of grid frequency was reduced. Even with the battery running balls to the wall, the grid was still slowing down.
[^2] Assuming that you haven't set your P and I terms to 0.
it's true, you can drive an h-bridge with a pre-canned pwm waveform whose phase you adjust with a latency measured not just in milliseconds but in seconds, though you'd better have safety mechanisms that respond to a fault on the line faster than that. you don't have to use feedback to generate the control signal! but at least in garden-variety class-d amplifiers reproducing arbitrary waveforms (rather than necessarily a fixed-frequency sine wave), you get better performance if you do use feedback, so it's common practice
(disclaimer, i've never built power electronics, so i could totally be misunderstanding something)
i think you're saying that any kind of a pid loop will alternate between being pinned at maximum or minimum when the plant isn't responding to the control output, unless p = i = 0. i don't think that's correct; i think it's sufficient to not make your p coefficient overwhelmingly large. a sufficiently large i coefficient will also make your control loop tend toward extremes in this situation, but not instantly, and a nonzero i will probably always win in the end when the plant is completely unresponsive. but a moderate p won't have that effect, and d can attenuate it.
also, you can totally use current feedback from the output of your smps to drive the pwm, and that seems to me like it would be a very good idea
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with this paragraph so I’m not going to respond to it.
> think it's sufficient to not make your p coefficient overwhelmingly large. a sufficiently large i coefficient will also make
What I’m saying is that making the P term small enough not to pin the PWM means that it won’t do anything useful, though I do see I wasn’t originally as clear as I could have been on that point. Either there won’t be enough gain or you will pin the output. There is no meaningful range of values in the middle, especially when the system needs to work outside the laboratory and you can’t tweak the parameters every other day.
If you rely completely on the I term, you’ll have stability problems. So now it requires a lot of D term… and now you’ve gone full circle and we’re back to “the whole thing won’t work without a time constant which makes it totally useless to run a PWM and barely useful for the outer loop.”
> you can totally use current feedback from the output of your smps to drive the pwm, and that seems to me like it would be a very good idea
I did mention that already… along with the fact that you need to set some target for your current feedback using an outer control loop. You can set the target by measuring frequency error averaged across several cycles. Again, you need on the order of 100 ms to make that work.
Whatever way you slice it, the grid backup battery is not going to start exporting power to the grid in less than a cycle, and certainly not in less than a millisecond.
To be clear, frequency is not the only signal. Operators have voltage and current monitors on most transmission lines, so they can tell where the power is coming from and going to. The whole system is partly automatic and partly held together by people making phone calls.
They're also used in DC's as a buffer as other energy sources spin up. Lawrence Systems did a neat walkthrough of that infra recently [1].
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw39gxIqfVU
It’s still interesting that despite all that tech, there needs to be a person watching the sync clock.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchroscope
In short, every generator is also an electric motor. When you connect a generator/motor to the grid, it begins rotating in sync with every other generator/motor on the grid. The grid will supply any amount of power required to speed up or slow down as needed, to keep everything locked together.
The initial synchronization process may be quite violent, depending on the size of the initial discrepancy.
The synchroscope is the gauge that shows the phase and frequency difference between the generator and the grid. Before closing the switch, operators align everything as closely as possible to ensure a smooth transition.
https://www.wired.com/story/how-30-lines-of-code-blew-up-27-...
> Black chunks began to fly out of an access panel on the generator, which the researchers had left open to watch its internals. Inside, the black rubber grommet that linked the two halves of the generator’s shaft was tearing itself apart.
This was a proof-of-concept for a cyber attack on power infrastructure.
They sent it malware that inverted the grid sync behavior from "Sync up, then connect, and if you de-sync, disconnect" to "If you are synced, disconnect, if you are desynced, reconnect"
The Wired article is an advert for a book filled with pretty fluffy prose - At times reading like a romance novel...
https://studyelectrical.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Guide...
1. Siemens rep physically touching things despite vibration sensors being in place - do they not trust the sensors? If they do not, how are they doing routine monitoring? Have someone sit atop the machine and feel for things 24/7? Or is that just the rep grandstanding for the cameras?
2. Time of grid sync only having hh:mm precision. Nitpick, but at 60hz, that is about 50s of imprecision.
3. The mentioned previous unsuccessful attempts - so went wrong? Dunno, I tend to learn more about systems from failure :)
You ever give a pair of kitchen tongs a few good clacks before using them? You know, just to make sure they're still clacking?
I haven't looked into it but the guy who sold me our current gps time receiver told me that power companies no longer offer a cycle guarantee.
The dam ran too slow, and everyone who relied on wired clocks ended up being 15 minutes behind in their day.
https://www.swissgrid.ch/en/home/operation/grid-data/current...
Trust but verify?
If the rep’s touch is calibrated, then it would perturb the sensors by a known amount and should validate the sensors are not resulting a metric that is permanently wrong.
I was inside a Niagara hydro electric station in the 80s, they still had analog clocks on the wall for grid and station
Eventually with enough renewables on the grid, sync gets a little tougher, so far so good :)
https://www.swissgrid.ch/en/home/operation/grid-data/current...
Are the degree measurements on the interties temperature? 97° seems hot if so?
"Current grid time deviation -14.568 s" any idea over what time period this is? 15s seems like a long time to be off.
That sounds a little early; mains-referenced clocks continue to be widespread into the 21st century, especially in bedside clock radios. In my experience, the ones based on quartz oscillators drift even more than mains-referenced ones over the long term.
As in, you own one? If so, that's awesome! I'd be very interested in learning more.
It has been really great experience. The historic design significance is really deep.
Here is what is left to the architect that specialized in model schools made of re-enforced brick masonry.
https://www.michiganmodern.org/modern-designers/warren-holme...
The current building codes I think were fundamentally defined during this era of construction. The building is technical a Modernist building as it steel structure with brick veneer walls.
The building was very original when I got it and I have tried to maintain that as much as possible. I have insulated based on guidance from Building Science Corporation. I'm in New England and we have been getting by using air sourced heat pumps. I have a 40kW solar array to offset energy costs and fiber to the building.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0Y5oqs3qnakFd
The building is live/work and I'm hoping to attract HN like people to create a strong community.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/european-grid-di...
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/360328/serbi...
You don't need a precise time source to make power grids possible. You don't need any time source at all, as generator operators simply synchronise with the grid's current frequency (and phase) before throwing the switch that electrically connects the generator to the grid. And once the generators are connected, they are automatically locked to the exact same frequency and phase. It's not possible for them to fall out of phase without the electrical connection being broken (If you try to force a generator out of phase, it will draw more current trying to get back in phase and will eventually blow a fuse)
For engineering reasons, it's useful to keep the frequency within a few percent of a standard, but for most purposes, it doesn't matter if the grid is running at 58Hz, 60Hz or 62Hz and you can achieve way more accuracy with crude mechanical governor. Many simpler backup generators use nothing more than a mechanical governor to maintain their frequency.
The primary reason why power grids used accurate master clocks is actually the secondary reason that this article mentions: Automated time synchronisation.
This predates the days of modern quartz clocks. It was possible to make very precise mechanical clocks (especially for navigation use), but they were impractical and too expensive for every day use. The average clock or pocket watch would gain or lose several minutes per day and required constant manual adjustment. Loud bells ringing each hour would allow a town or small city to keep the same time, but different towns would be out of sync with each other.
There were various competing solutions at this time. Clocks would be synchronized over long distances with time signals transmitted over telegraph or radio. Paris actually had a network of pneumatic tubes that drove synchronised clocks driven with a pulse of air every minute: https://www.amusingplanet.com/2022/02/the-pneumatic-clocks-o...
But the power grid neatly solved this problem.
Not only did it distribute power, but it distributed a synchronised time signal across the entire nation. Your complicated mechanical wall clock could be replaced by a simple electric synchronous motor that drove the clock hands and it would keep perfect sync with every other clock on the same power grid.
All you needed to make this useful was a single master clock that kept the power grid running at exactly 60Hz (well, it actually drifts as load varies, but they deliberately vary it so there are exactly 5184000 pulses per day).
This time keeping service that power companies supplied as a secondary effect of their primary purpose was typically mandated by government regulations, as cheap and accurate synchronized time is a boost to the economy.
If there was not a well known fixed frequency it would be impossible to evenly distribute load over power stations. All generators have a %load vs frequency delta curve built into them which is precisely calibrated.
The frequency does not provide an indication of load. The frequency can be 60.00Hz with 20,000 MW load in Ontario or with 10,000MW.
Changes in frequency provide a measure of changes in the balance between generation and load.
The generator’s prime mover’s governor has a droop function set so that typically a 5% change in frequency will result in a 100% change in output. This is how most generators on the grid arrest changes in frequency, but they would not restore the frequency to 60Hz. The droop allows for a steady state frequency error.
A handful of special generators are used to restore the frequency to 60Hz or balance the generation and load in an area.
The precise frequency does not matter, if one generator thinks the frequency is 59.99 and another thinks it is 60.01 their outputs will only be a little higher and lower than their load setpoint. It does not matter if they share changes in load perfectly evenly, so long as generators on the system in bulk respond according to their capabilities.
With gps synchronized clocks and high speed waveform measurement we can see the propagation delay in the frequency across the country when there is a big event. Pretty neat!