A mechanical keyboard with programmable knobs and full color screen panel | Hacker News Reader

A mechanical keyboard with programmable knobs and full color screen panel

knob.design

63 points_justinfunk89 comments

Why does anything fun end up as a compact keyboard with no numeric pad and cramped navigation keys?

How am I supposed to write code or even play a game on this?

And tbh... people who would be interested in this have multiple monitors, or one very large monitor. There should be plenty of space in front of it for a full size keyboard.

Tenkeyless (TKL) keyboards are popular because you can keep your mouse hand closer to your keyboard. The tenkey is a easy thing to lose if you don't do much data entry.

As for writing code and playing games, I use vim keybinds everywhere and play games with WASD controls. So nav keys aren't particularly critical either.

If it doesn't have the 10-key, then at least put the top number keys in the standard typewriter position. This keyboard has the number keys shifted to the left a bit by about a quarter key width, which will cause errors for touch typists that also touch-type the number keys.

For a long time, I used TKL with a separate numpad that I placed on the left of my keyboard.

Helped to eliminate some elbow pain I was getting from having my elbow cocked sideways.

This is my solution too, except I keep the ten-key to the right of my mouse.

I've been bothered for a while by these keyboards with non standard layouts. They tend to land on the budget side of the spectrum and are different for the sake of being different and cool. This means a lot of kids end up with these keyboards and as an adult will have to unlearn and relearn how to type.

most people spend too long all day hunching their shoulders because they're typing. They would be better off if they didn't bring their hands closer together. That's the whole advantage of split keyboards too.

Split keyboards are a much better way to accomplish that, though. Standard keyboards end up pushing the home row way off-center no matter what, which for me at least is uncomfortable for anything but short bursts of typing.

I agree unfortunately at the moment there aren't any wireless split keyboards in my budget and my history with keyboards is such that I consider them consumables and paying $300 for one is too much for me to consider.

I have my 'tenkeys' on a layer activated by extra thumb buttons. For me pressing a button is faster than moving my hand. It does mean that you need both hands to use the tenkeys, which does eliminate some use-cases.

> How am I supposed to write code...

You write code... using the numpad?

> There should be plenty of space in front of it for a full size keyboard.

That's not the reason. Most people are right handed and most keyboard have the numpad at the left. Most people also put their mouse at the right of their keyboard. This makes reaching for the mouse a major nuisance. Without a numpad or with a numpad on the side where you don't have your mouse, that problem disappears.

Now of course there are other pointing devices (trackpoint, trackpad, etc.) and some are located in the middle.

But the undisputable fact is this: most people are right handed and most people have a regular mouse and that mouse is located at the right of the keyboard.

Numpad sucks in that case.

Back in the days I didn't know about keyboards with numpads on the left of the keyboard and 60% keyboards weren't really a thing yet so although I'm right-handed I started using my mouse as a leftie (and still do to this day).

60% keyboard like the HHKB (one of the "OG" 60%) aren't about the lack of space in front of the monitor. It's about grabbing the mouse and coming back to the keyboard with less hand travel.

I have never seen a keyboard with a number pad on the left-hand side in my life and I have never bought a keyboard without a number pad. I also don't have coordination issues with my right hand and have never heard anyone complain about not being able to reach their mouse because of a number pad. Go figure.

Boards with number pads on the left are called south paws. I'm a lefty and I've always thought the numpad is in a more convenient location on the right, but what do I know.

It depends on how you use your mouse, I tend to keep one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard for a lot of the day and it's frustrating not having space to swing left when there's a numpad. I've been using a tenkeyless and an external numpad for many years now and find it much preferable to a full-size keeb.

I personally like preserving as much desk space as possible and I find that a numeric pad isn't essential. I don't input numbers a lot. Navigation keys are very useful for coding though...

Look at this psychopath not using vi/m.

I’m kidding. I use VSCodium on the desktop and heavily modded vim on VMs.

Well i use pgup/down and home/end extensively. Grew up with Borland IDEs.

The numpad... maybe i could live without it, but I do use it.

I keyed in games from magazines into things like a Vic-20, or C-64 or Ti99-4a, as a kid. To me, the lack of a tenkey means it's not really a kbd, just a toy.

I used vi for about 5 years, then figured out how to exit it. ba-dum-tiss

I'll see myself out.

I've been writing code for many years and have never needed a numeric pad. My keyboard since about 2015 doesn't even have navigation keys: I use a combination of the caps lock (reprogrammed as a function key) and IJKL. Works fine for me.

Integrated numpads and navkeys end up gathering dust most of the time for my usage. I like the macOS global text nav shortcuts[0][1] better than the typical dedicated keys, and I rarely enter numbers in great enough quantity that speed matters. For the odd occasion I do need to enter numbers, I have a separate numpad I can pull out and set to the left of my keyboard, where it’s not dislocating my keyboard’s home row or messing with mousing space.

[0]: https://jblevins.org/log/kbd [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20220217071143/https://www.hcs.h...

I have a similar complaint!, I'm looking for an MS ergo keyboard and nothing is close.

I can live without the numpad, but the lack of function rows, and the introduction of forced, convoluted "chords" or whatever (what kind of "ergonomics" is that?), kill all the options I know.

BTW mine is: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9wjpg0...

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Another way to say this is that ergonomics is personal, and it is hard to find something universal. For me, ergonomics is: not need to do maneuvers with the fingers, so I even added more keys to my keyboard stuff like "Ctrl + B" and others with a single press.

But yes, is kind of obvious that there are not enough options in this niche market and the "let's do this as small as possible, all people like to do gymnastics with fingers!" are THE majority of the options... !

My thoughts exactly... No numpad? No normal arrows? Naaaaah that's not a keyboard of my dreams at all

When people are already chopping out numpads, etc, in their custom designs, they can afford an extra horizontal inch of space on their keebs for fancy features, without getting too big.

For a large segment of people, a keyboard like this has everything they need on it: WASD, numrow, arrows.

You could easily fit extra controls on a full-size keyboard as long as the keyboard and mouse are not wider than your shoulders. TKL has no ergonomic benefit, it's just an opinionated design decision which is common today because people don't learn to use a numeric pad. Cramped designs are good for portability, but bad for ergonomics.

Personally, I will never buy a TKL keyboard. I may rarely use the numeric pad, but rarely is not never, and I can think of a few specific use cases aside from typing in numbers quickly that require one. I wouldn't mind a keyboard with even more keys to provide better coverage of legacy layouts.

I daily-drove an IBM Model M that was a few months older than me, for about a summer. I love it, but it's just so comically oversized for my desk, even while using a deskpad.

Modern custom mech boards, like my current TKL, allow for extra function layers. You can hypothetically set up a 'numpad layer' on '890', 'iop', kl;', actuated by a layer key that can be held with a finger on the left side of the board. Less overall movement of one's fingers and arms, with equal access to the numpad functionality, if one needs it.

If you want a proof of that concept, see the Planck. Hypothetically, this little thing could replace your desired 'Space Cadet' or 'Battlestation' style keyboard with less than 50 buttons: https://olkb.com/collections/planck

It doesn't apply to this particular model, but many of the custom mechanical keyboards are built by hand (sometimes from kits), so it's less work to make a pared down version.

It's crazy because as a leftie, my numpad is your wasd. So many laptops and fun keyboards I cannot use.

Looks like an OP-1 [1], as do those in [2].

[1] https://teenage.engineering/products/op-1 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39555544

Absolutely the first thing I thought of, I had to scroll down to make sure it wasn't actually from them.

Especially the Field model!

Keycap design was probably inspired by 1970s/80s Siemens keyboards, e.g. https://preview.redd.it/6gqyzdshdfp01.jpg?width=1080&crop=sm...

I'm still using and enjoying my Keychron Alice-layout 75% Q10[1], Q0 Plus[2], and the 3D printed fully open source Ploopy Mouse[3].

All are configured via QMK, although I only custom compile a firmware for the mouse. For the keyboards I just use VIA, which is plenty capable.

For the numberpad, I have the macro keys and the numlock key assigned to A through F, so I have a hexadecimal keypad when I want it. On the Q10 main keyboard, I have macro keys assigned to ctrl-r and ctrl-t for fzf, plus alt-x, ctrl-g, and ctrl-x ctrl-s for Emacs.

The ploopy mouse is a marvel, although I wish its wheel was sticky/stepped and not freely-rotating. I wish I had the skills to design a vertical version of the mouse and transfer the guts to that, but I'm a complete idiot when it comes to 3D stuff. Having QMK on a mouse is game-changer though; you can use one button as a layer switcher, and expand the number of functions each button performs. Being able to do a plain text paste in macOS, or use the side buttons for page up/down and home/end, is really useful.

I highly recommend customizing your macro keys! Especially if you use something like Emacs or work in the terminal a lot.

[1] https://www.keychron.com/pages/keychron-q10-customizable-mec...

[2] https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q0-plus-qmk-custo...

[3] https://ploopy.co/mouse/

Wow, I haven't kept up since kbdfans discontinued the kbd75 (with split spacebar), but I'm glad something like this exists in case my kbd75 board dies. (recently I also found https://system76.com/accessories/launch)

So strange that it includes a Home key but not a End key (and there's space for it)

> macro keys assigned to alt-x, ctrl-g, and ctrl-x ctrl-s for Emacs

Wouldn't it slow you down a lot if you have to reach the far left for these?

I just have Shift, Ctrl, Alt all in the split spacebar cluster and sticky key enabled so I'm very comfortable with any key chords (plus I use leader key).

BTW I know you use VIA, and IIRC it doesn't enable the QMK macro recorder/playback keys. I used that a lot outside of Emacs.

Thanks!

I've found that muscle memory helps a lot with meta-x and ctrl-g, but the save combo is never used. This is because I USA Mac and just use command-s for save nowadays. Muscle memory also helps with the other 2 macro keys, which are at the bottom left of the keyboard and fairly easy to hit with a pinky or ring finger. You're absolutely right, it's a reach and I'd prefer that the keys were positioned below the space bars.

I actually swapped out and moved the upper right keys such that I have a home and end key as well as page up/down and delete.

It's still my end game keyboard. It sounds and feels great!

(I'll check out the macro recorder too)

I have a similar keyboard but the low profile k15 Alice layout https://keychron.ca/products/keychron-k15-pro-alice-layout-q...

The keyboard here looks like it adds a screen but will have worse ergonomics.

One thing that's keeping my hand on the mouse and stopping me from going full keyboard, is the free scrolling mousewheel on logitech mice. I find it such an ergonomic and natural way to get to the right place in long documents (and code).

What I would really love is a keyboard with this sort of scroll wheel embedded just on the edge of the keys. All the keyboards I see with knobs / rotary encoders look cool but I can't see myself using a vertical knob for scrolling a document. Do any custom keyboard builds feature a mousewheel?

There are horizontal rotary encoders with click functionality (The component is called EVQWGD001). Unfortunately the pin layout differs from the vertical rotary encoders so you need a custom PCB or hack some custom wiring together. They're more common on split keyboards from what I've found.

You can buy a preassembled split keyboard with this from https://ergomech.store (I've been looking at purchasing one from them). There's also a seller on etsy who offers split keyboards with the horizontal encoder.

I use Vimium browser extension and neovim with remapped C-u & C-d. Navigating long pages and files is a breeze with HJKL.

Around the turn of the millennium, I had a Logitech keyboard which featured a scroll wheel (and dedicated keys for media control, search and other stuff). I don't recall the model, but you might get lucky on eBay with a bit of searching.

[EDIT: After a bit of research, I found the model: Logitech Internet Navigator Keyboard]

Checkout Contour Design RollerMouse Red. I've always been intrigued by it but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

I've been thinking it would be fun to make a big console-like keyboard with a whole other set of keys above the normal keyboard for things like Greek letters, mathematical symbols, additional punctuation marks, etc. If I used OLED keycaps, there could be a big scroll wheel on one side that would select which character set was used for the supplemental keyboard.

Simplicity and portability have their uses, but I've always had a fondness for the aesthetics of those complicated-looking industrial control consoles. (The ergonomics are much better, too!)

You can go lower-tech than the OLED method and have a printed legend with a bank of lights to represent row or column selection.

In practice, every time I experiment with "big" control surfaces with a lot of buttons and macros, it doesn't end up being used. The apps where it comes up, I generally move towards a written script, and then I am just doing regular typing again. When you go large there's a penalty in that your arm is moving farther to access things. So, as with GUI vs CLI you end up moving faster with the stenographer's approach of rote sequences with intensive chording.

I think there is something underexplored in the idea of adding visible modality to the controls though. We can have more than caps lock, num lock, scroll lock. There should be a genuine "Unicode keyboard" that can emit the codepoints directly without the help of the OS it's talking to.

Well you could use this PCB and add the Greek letters as extra columns. These are 6 row 9 column.

https://keeb.io/products/bfo-9000-keyboard-customizable-full...

I would probably make my own PCB for this if I actually get around to doing it. (I'm an EE, so making custom hardware would be half the fun.) The tricky part for me would be writing a driver. I suspect that's where it would fall apart; to my understanding keyboards (as a standard device type) use a limited number of scan codes and the mapping to characters is done in the OS based on the locale settings. I'm not clear on how hard it is to get e.g. Unicode code points through a USB port -- [1] says there's no standard way, while [2] seems to have hacked something up with alt codes. I suspect that would introduce input lag, though.

[1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/37203616/how-do-i-direct...

[2] https://hackaday.io/project/192644-unicode-binary-input-term...

Something like the Hyper 7?

https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4

Interesting. First thought is that the knob and screen should be on the left.. this would be more usable (could actually keep mousing and use left hand to spin and slide easily)

Then I think that if you made the knob and screen as separate thing you'd likely sell more of those.. and you might as well make a 10 key add on thing too. (similar to the /keychron-q0-plus-qmk-custom-number-pad someone else mentioned)

More I think of it, I'd not mind keeping my ergonmoic keyboard and adding a couple of each the knob/screen and knob/keys.. could make video editing and music making interesting.. maybe I just need a streamdeck and Traktor X1 or PreSonus ioStation + PreSonus ATOM Production & Performance Midi Pad Controller or something.. maybe Traktor Kontrol F1.. now I'm thinking I like the smaller size of knob.design thing first..

I like the idea of experimenting with easier slide and spin/turn to control things.

A couple of other similar low profile keyboard projects some may be interested in:

https://monokei.co/systems https://electronicmaterialsoffice.com/

Looks great. There aren't enough low profile keyboards around and my wrists really prefer them

But I'd trade the useless screen and slightly-less-useless knobs for home/end/pgup/pgdn/del/ins any day of the week

And the keycaps seem like bad ergonomics but I can't really bash them without trying

The name might need revising for the UK market.

My first thought.. they are really going to call this "the knob"?

"The year of the knob" did give me a chuckle. Almost as bad as that crypto company that called themselves Nonce Finance.

I think they know what they’re doing there

It's pronounced "Kenobi 1" according to the site. Star wars reference?

I like that one but I'm holding on for this one https://worklouder.cc/nomad-e/

I also love my Nuphy 96, but it's knobless

would order this immediately if it had a function row

why do most / all of these artisanal keyboards lack numeric keypad?

Because the numeric keypads are largely unused and not ergonomic (wrist travel distance from letters to mouse). They are the "tenkeyless" variety, which many prefer. You can find full 104-key mechanical keyboards if you want as well, or get an external numeric keypad.

> not ergonomic

They are ergonomic for anyone who needs to type more than a few numbers in a row, or has used a pocket calculator more than a few times.

You can configure a layer to act as one, without adding more hardware and making the keyboard larger and less ergonomic.

Cynical answer: These things are expensive enough without adding another two dozen switches, and besides, Kids These Days grew up using laptops and don't get the point of having numpads when the numbers are all already there above the letters.

FWIW I grew up on the desktop and also don't get the point of having numpads when the numbers are all already there above the letters

It's infinitely faster to enter numbers using a numpad, and some people do that a lot.

that really depends on the count of numbers you're entering. how often do you type in a long list of numbers?

I can enter numbers faster on the number keys than I can on the numpad for most tasks. I've never really needed a numpad in 30 years

A huge percentage of people use computers for data entry. Many of them are accountants. Some even predate computers — but not calculators. Having the calculator form factor is critical for folks doing math all day.

I spent 7 years in Wall Street doing math all day and never used the numpad. Not all of us care about it...

FWIW, I grew up using T9 on features phones. I don't get the point of having QWERTY keyboards on smartphones.

Good for you, but I never claimed nobody preferred T9 phones over QWERTY, unlike the OP who said "kids these days" prefer TKL, which is just inaccurate.

Nuphy has one!

Looks neat. Seems entirely impractical from keycaps, to the staggered layout, complete with non-existent ergonomics and the odd choice of non-knurled knobs. But, neat.

I don't know what I'd do with the knobs or screen, but I really like this. I just need it in an ergodox-like form factor!

The keyboard is nice (ish) but the keys layout is wrong for macOS (command-option/alt-control order).

Personally I also prefer to have a numpad.

Usually you can remap the layout in the firmware, and it should be easy to move the caps around?

A big issue is the fn key which is a modifier internal to the keyboard device, so it doesn’t register outside its firmware.

I can’t tell if fn-ctrl-alt-cmd-space-cmd-alt is a better layout or if I just got too used to it? It’s nearly impossible to find keyboards using this layout from non-apple manufacturers and it’s really frustrating!

FYI I found the Logitech MX Keys (for Mac <- important) that has the same layout and I'm pretty happy with it, also because it has support for multiple devices (KVM-style, wrote a small script that detects the connected device change)

Am I understanding it right it's supposed to be pronounced "Kenobi" (1)?

But they also say "the year of the knob is upon us" and it's got two knobs (weird for keyboards) and took the domain "knob.design"?

This all seems quite confusing lol

My first thought: gosh, these knobs don't seem at all comfortable to operate.

I don’t know if that’s just my OCD, but if they care about the looks so much, then it seems like the arrow right key, the screen and the knobs are not aligned or even at the same margin from the right edge…

I wish there was an OEM or Cherry profile keyboard that offered the same features. It seems that all the innovative features are getting slapped exclusively onto low-profile keyboards.

Compact is kinda frustrating, for years I used a full size board and finally swapped to a 60%. Even though you can remap keys, it's pretty annoying compared to my last setup.

Not a fan of those low profile and also circular pad keycaps. Gives you even less room to hit the right key! Not for me, but maybe someone else likes that

Too bad that Apple never made a standalone keyboard with Touch Bar. It along with the Elgato Stream Decks do show there's a demand for these things.

Lower is achy for me. Even the premium magic keyboard for macs hurts. I'd much rather have a nice comfortable bounce

Without Tenkey, they can keep it.

For those that don't need/use tenkey, it might be a cool toy.

I’ve always wanted to replace my mouse with etch-a-sketch style knobs!

Gimmie a split version thst tents and I’ll buy two.

Based on the fact it looks like a Teenage Engineering product, I can already tell it'll be wildly overpriced. I'm betting >$500, which is flat out insane given you can get a pretty decent mechanical keyboard for $50 these days.

I for one am sick and tired of these conspicuous consumption status symbol products that offer no real improvements in utility, but are just expensive so people can say the spent more money.

Oh wow, knobs "programmable" can't w8 to buy this useless shit for an insanely overpriced price.

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