I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

Your lawyer would have printed out email #2 ("You nuked a DB. Screw you."), called it a pretext to deny you rightfully earned wages, and told the company to have their legal representative suit up because he'd be happy to take his chances with any judge in the state. (Edit to add: Technically, that is a couple of increasingly pointy $300-a-page letters later in the sequence, but the threat of it is implicit from the first time he signs his name with Esquire.) A check would shortly arrive in his mail.

The fact that you dropped the production database sucks. However you stayed around and fixed it. I can't really say anything more. My bet is we all handle lots of sensitive data around here. Our worst nightmare is to drop that data by accident. Stuff happens...fix it and move on.

I understand we are a litigious society but if your knee jerk reaction is to bring in lawyers something is wrong. My hope is this post will make it around to Somrat and Tim (I've never met either of them) and you two will resolve it amicably. Maybe I am delusional but good character still counts for something.

Bonuses are when you receive additional pay for performing your required duties as an employee. eg. you were hired as a programmer, you've doing great work, here's an extra 10K.

Not only did they fail to pay your wages within X days of termination, an egregious violation of the labour code but now they are misrepresenting the employment agreement as not including written amendments made by officers of the company.

Furthermore this policy they speak of has altered the employment agreement with out consent from the employed, and failure to disclose the policy at the time the offer was made constitutes negligent misrepresentation of the contract. I'm sure if you had known that you would have only received payment while still an employee, the offer would not have induced you to perform said services for the company. Failure to inform employees of changes to the employment agreement is also likely a violation of labour law.

File with your local labour board for unpaid wages, dealing with this should cost them easily more than $10K. The last thing they want is bureaucrats around their business.

Then file in small claims court for lost wages and breach of contract.

Attach the directors of the corporation personally to the suit as directors are liable for unpaid wages. (This may not be true in your jurisdiction)

Find the statute that says that all unpaid wages must be paid within X days of quitting / termination, add damages.

Add up all your time spend dealing with the recovery of this money, as well as reporting this to the authorities, add costs.

Hopefully after this you've reached the max allowable for a small claims suit.

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice.

I had someone not pay me $9k, and have filed a lawsuit. We're closing in on 4 years now (aug 2008) and still no court date. Courts take time.

I wrestled with 'name and shame', and in some respect, wish I had named. I found out that this company/person had done this to others, and one of the guys 'named' him publicly on a blog. He got a threatening call, telling him to take it down and he'd get paid. Of course, he took it down and didn't get paid - that was < $1k from what I remember.

I hear this a lot - "don't go public with these sorts of things, you'll get a bad reputation, blah blah blah". I'm really torn. I get it, but... if more people started doing this - going public when BS like this is perpetrated - there'd be far less resistance to hiring/contracting with people who have air this sort of stuff.

I've been self-employed for 5 years, have contracted on dozens of projects, and have 2 instances where I got shafted out of money owed. If I was to publicize those, but also have, say 25 other projects under my belt with fine referrals, wouldn't that say more about the 2 shafters vs me? And again, if everyone was doing this, it would seem a lot more normal.

Yeah, if I publicly trashed every company I worked with, my 'trashing score' would be pretty high, and people would want to stay away from me. But really, I'd prefer people know that I publicly praise good clients and trash bad ones, and if they think they're going to be a bad client, to not bother reaching out. I'd rather there be a filter there which keeps crap clients away in the first place.

The thing is, we all have to start doing this at the same time. I do agree that legal proceedings are worthwhile in some cases, in many cases, people are getting shafted out of hundreds or thousands, and it's often not worth the time to 'go legal'. The habitual scumbags know this and take advantage of it, continually rolling through contractors. They know most of them will just leave and won't make a public fuss, because they want to be 'employable' and not be known as a 'troublemaker'. Someone who doesn't pay me for contractual work done is the troublemaker, but somehow that seems to get lost.

Employees make mistakes and to punish them for it is insane. If you were purposely trying to screw things up and were fired for that, of course thats a different story- but it sounds like you were just trying to do your job and made a mistake, it happens. Also, seeing as you were supposed to have been paid the bonus while you were there, it makes it twice as awkward.

This should be a lesson to other founders- Treat people good and they will speak highly of you and may stay with you forever, to your next startup or company. Dont and they will do the opposite. That alone is worth more than the 10k you save.

Penny wise but pound foolish, as the saying goes.

If OP had asked for the bonus while still being at Miso, it seems like he would simply have gotten it. Seeing as a non-contractual bonus is an investment in the employee that the company does in addition to the usual compensation, and seeing as OP quit on his own and doesn't have a compensation anymore, I can see that this would seem like a strange investment.

These informal bonuses shouldn't be seen as something you're entitled to, but rather as a nice extra that might disappear any second. If you really want something, it should be in the contract. If it isn't in the contract, you apparently can also live without it.

edit: Oh, downvotes. I really should stop posting my opinion if it might be controversial.

1. They promised you would get the bonus at 6 months, and THEY did not deliver (their fault for not keeping their written agreement). -- They were in the red before you left. You are just collecting on their past dues.

2. They didn't have a backup before production and you happened to blow it up. You woked hard and recovered most of the data. (their fault for not having a backup) -- Kudos to you for fessing up that you screwed up, but everyone does that and it is their fault for not having a backup

3. You confronted them about their debt, and they tried to find "sneaky language" that sounds like a solid reason to not pay you for your service. (their fault for shady business)

Sounds to me like they are trying to kill two birds with one stone by using a made up on the spot loophole to save $10k and bury a mistake they made in not fulfilling their pledge.

For example, should some future employer decide to Google your name before making an offer, they're likely to come up with an old spat between you and your employer. Even if you're in the right, it will make them think twice about hiring you. This disagreement may follow you forever (Google doesn't forget) and cost much more than $10k.

A better tactic may be to try and leverage your relationship with your friend who is still employed there. If this quarrel is detrimental to his morale, they may be willing to come to an agreement.

I'm pretty sure the OP is smart enough to know this move could cost him dearly in the future. He's basically setting himself at the 'stake', next to Miso, with his post.

This is why we have to pay a bit more attention than just dismissing his claim and label him childish. Doesn't matter who's right/wrong, the OP felt this was an issue worth risking his rep for (just by posting, he's already a blip on HR's radar). The tech startup circle is pretty small, made smaller by internet and LinkedIn. Definitely a big decision to take something like this public.

I'm surprised at his move taking it public so quickly, and more surprised at Miso going back on their words and expect no repercussions/fallout.

I'm really tired of this one way street where employers get to be sleaze-balls behind the mask of a company name while an employee doing anything that skirts the line of not being upstanding is 'irresponsible.'

We need more of this IMHO in that there is way too much practicing of sleazy business techniques in SV if you ask me

Any recruiter worth their salt is getting a minimum of 15% on first years salary right now, and many are getting 20%. On a typical $150K Salary that would be $30K if the same candidate comes through a recruiter.

Perhaps it's just the case that Miso doesn't use external recruiters, and so the statement is accurate - but to suggest that bonuses are paid for good referrals as part of "Team Building" and not to get the lead on great talent would not be consistent with current market conditions.

Step 1) Make bad engineering decisions that make accidents like this possible

Step 2) Blame employees who knock over your fragile infrastructure

Great strategy, Miso!

* The lack of backups is partly your fault. You were an engineer there after all.

* Nuking a production database can happen, but the default assumption is that you are sloppy.

* Based on the timeframes one could assume you were fired from Miso.

* You have no problem revealing confidential information about your former employer's infrastructure and operations.

* You publicly post private emails between you and your former employer.

Opponents are right in the same way you shouldn't badmouth former employers in job interviewers. It's not fair but it makes you look worse. You just kind of have to suck it up and move on.

When companies screw you out of money, you should name and shame them (IMHO). Trust me, over the years I've probably lost out on all told $50,000 or more that people never paid. In some cases it was a clear breach of contract. I never pursued it through litigation and reading stories from those that have I'm kinda glad. Such a thing is a mental burden and a distraction. Your best bet really is to move on unless the amount is really huge (maybe even $50,000+ for a single claim).

All that being said, this scenario is not one the company should be ashamed of IMHO and were I Miso I wouldn't have said a damn thing about it.

He forgot to claim a referral bonus. They didn't pay it after he left the company. Technically, they are correct: referral bonuses are paid to employees. He is not an employee.

Sure they could've paid it to him and maybe they should've but I sympathize with their position.

No matter what anyone tells you--and this is important--when you get a bonus of any sort it is forward-looking even though it's for what you've done. If you've left the company or are leaving, you are no longer of value to them.

If he's made the claim and pushed back on it finally reneging, that would be a completely different story.

This is a textbook example of "nothing to gain" and "makes you look bad" rolled into one.

EDIT: to answer one point brought up by a commentor (chasing): yes, you are correct. This is not a bonus in the strictest sense.

It is not however automatic compensation like your salary is. You need to take action to claim it (by submitting the form or whatever to get the referral bonus). Miso admits he did not do that. He is no longer an employee and thus can't file forms an employee otherwise would.

I imagine if this were a case where he expensed something and failed to claim the expenses the employer would pay. From this you can (reasonably) view the two as similar. The difference (IMHO) is that if an employer doesn't pay outstanding expenses, you may continue to own or you have a pretty cut-and-dried case against them for breach of contract.

Failing to file a referral bonus form while you were an employee is really your fault.

I'm not saying the employer is completely in the right here but honestly I think they're more right than he is and certainly come out of this looking better than he does.

- this is a good/bad way to get your $10K

- this is a good/bad way to have a job in the future

- this guy who's out $10K is a douche/everyday hero

- this is really/really not a bonus, and that is relevant because [ ]

- bonuses are forward/backward looking and therefore [ ]

I also see some, but not enough, in my opinion, of the following:

keep your promises, whether they are tacit or formal, expensive or cheap, connected or not connected to some other issue, defensible or not defensible in court. Just keep your promises. Regardless of spin, regardless of how you feel emotionally, regardless of how busy or distracted you are. If you forget, or lag, and then are reminded, apologize and pay up. You can still say the guy is a douche if you want to, or scold him for his bad taste, or bad skills, or whatever. That's really a separate deal.

Fail for Miso.

I still wouldn't have gone for the "nuclear option" of naming and shaming -- it makes your next employer more wary of hiring you (which probably costs you more than $10k in wages, even though anyone minimally competent can get a job in the current market in the Bay Area), and costs the employer way more than $10k (I doubt any HN readers will blindly trust Miso or the founders, at least for a while).

Just like the namesake, the "nuclear option" is negative sum. I prefer to stick to positive sum games when possible, or zero sum when unavoidable.

Good call, Miso.

The founders of Miso will now be perceived by many people (myself amongst them) as highly unethical and shortsighted individuals. Being either of those things makes them undesirable as employers/employees/coworkers.

I'm reminded of the altruistic primates that run shrieking through the forest to warn their clan of an approaching predator, at the risk of being eaten themselves... If rremoncake saved some hackers from putting in a few years with these guys only to be hosed after an acquisition, then I think he's done something pretty positive, and should be commended. Sorry if you get eaten.

I say this as a founder many times over. An agreement is an agreement. I've had to do things like put salaries on credit cards and mortgage my house to make payroll during bad times. I don't appreciate business owners that behave as you described.

The data loss event you mentioned has no relevance here. Yes, you fucked-up. And you own that. Lesson learned. The $10K was not conditional to you being a perfect employee, it only required you to bring someone in that would stay for at least six months. That, you did.

  "After you lost our data and caused our entire 
  company to scramble for 3 days, I am hesitant",

Apparently he'd already done so, and commented on the blog:

http://jzhwu.blogspot.com/2012/05/im-former-miso-engineer-an...

Somrat NiyogiMay 10, 2012 9:37 PM I'm CEO of Miso. Let me start by saying, this was our mistake and we apologize. We reached out to Joshua Wu and we are paying his referral bonus.

Let me dig into this further. We have a policy in place where if a Miso employee refers a full-time hire to Miso, after the referred employee has worked at Miso for 6 full months, the referring Miso employee will receive a bonus. Pretty standard stuff. What we didn’t make clear is what the timing is and other requirements for receiving the referral bonus. We did not have a clear and complete policy and it was our responsibility to communicate fully with our employees. This is clearly our fault.

Our referral program is still in place and we will continue to encourage our team to refer the best candidates to Miso. Moving forward, we have established the following clear criteria to explain how employees will be eligible for the $10K referral bonus: - The employee must provide a referral for a full-time hire. - The referred employee must work at Miso for 6 full months after hire date (excluding any leaves of absence) - The referring employee must be employed at Miso and not have given notice to depart the company prior to the date of the bonus payment.

If the above has been met, the referring employee will be eligible to receive the referral bonus in the first full pay period following the 6-month anniversary of the referred employee.

We are human and we make mistakes. We’ve learned something from this.

You made a mistake with the db, but I don't see how that entitles them to essentially fine you 10k.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToFileWageCLaim.htm "Unpaid wages, including commissions and bonuses." "A claim based on an oral agreement must be filed within two years from the date the claim arose."

Personally I think they lost their case as soon as their executive mentioned that the reason they would withhold payment was because of mistakes made on the job. By doing such they appear to acknowledge the debt and state their reasoning for not complying with payment is related to such reasons. Regardless of any future emails that kind of breaks CA labor code as far as I know. I'm not a lawyer though so what do I know.

Remember when the too-big-to-fail banks were bailed out to the tune of $700B USD and bank executives insisted they had to be paid their bonuses because their employers were contractually obligated to do so? A lot depends on who the payee is.

In this case, I imagine I would argue (in an affidavit) against the CTO who admitted that there was no backup in place. Also, there was an email suggesting that the verbal contract (now confirmed in writing thanks to the exchange of email!) would be honored except for a database mishap. That's an admission of liability. The emails do not state that the (potential) plaintiff was responsible for backups. They don't say, "you were responsible for backups and you did not implement any." They simply admit there weren't any, which I would count as a failure of management to implement backups.

A good labor lawyer could do a lot with this.

If an offer has been made, and the person is still with the company, then it is not only a contract, but a business necessity.

Obviously, from an ethical perspective 10k promised is 10k owed, and regardless of how unhappy the CEO is with gaining one employee only to lose another one, we all recognize the value of keeping our word. The CEO should chalk it up to be more careful about these type of terms in the future.

Can you produce this email? (IANAL)If so you may actually have legal grounds for taking action against Miso ...

They certainly did weasel out of it, though. Obviously they were looking for ways not to pay it rather than to avoid bad blood. That's fine, karma, they stepped on you on the way up the ladder, etc. Not a lot you can do about it, probably (but I'll be watching the thread ;).

I had never expected to see such reaction from so many HN characters. That's a long list of people I wish never to do business with.

And the employee has to remind the employer to pay up? Let's see how far that goes when employees have to remind the employer every payday that the paychecks are due. Why don't you just institute some asinine rebate-style process for obtaining your referral fee? 1) Clip the UPC code from the new hire and have it notarized on its date of hire; notarizing on any other date will void your claim to the fee 2) Hold the notarized code until the new hire has been employed with the company for at least six months 3) Mail the notarized original code to an address seven hundred miles away using a handwritten envelope and first class postage only; computer printed envelopes and postage in excess of first class postage will void your claim to the fee 4) Pray that the new hire is still with the company at the moment the claim department decides to process your claim. Claims may take six to eight months for processing.

Fast forward to November. I purchased over 8k worth of computers, phones, and software for new hires. I get my reimbursement check in Janurary. Most of their amazon stuff running was on my amazon account, and I ended up paying for their Microsoft assurance license costs out of my own pocket with the promise that I would be reimbursed.

I left in early April.

Guess who's still using his twilio API key for their SMS notifications? Guess who hasn't migrated their stuff off of his amazon key? Guess who hasn't paid him for his last expenses, and who held my last paycheck for an extra two weeks?

It's someone that is getting ready to get a first round of fifteen million valuation -- and I'm hopeful that when they fund, I start to see some of the money, but I'm not holding my breath...

Hell, I've sent them emails asking to have them remove their services from my accounts; even providing detailed instructions on how to do so. I am afraid of turning them off because I do not want to be accused of disrupting their services -- which would be a death blow to my career -- and emails sent to the CTO and VP of engineering go into the ether.

Bonus: the two attorneys I talked to wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole.

now that I'm reading more though, if they didn't stipulate "you have to be a current employee to redeem your bonus" from the get go, they probably should have and it was asking for trouble not to do so. if they're casually going to toss around 10k in informal emails it clearly didn't mean that much to them anyway. unless there's more to the story, ie an employee contract with a bonus clause in it. which there probably is because we've only read on side of this story.

miso has way more to lose here than one engineer, if I was miso, I would've met immediately with legal counsel and him and hammered out a solution, not fired emailed back n forth.

dumb moves all around.

$10K is an amount that sounds like a lot to many folks but it's nothing you can ever recover. If you engage a lawyer it'll all go to his fees even if you "win." Move on.

The bonus was an incentive, which you clearly didn't care about because: a) you forgot about it, and b) you referred your friend who you would have referred anyway

Making it "public" now is just vindictive. If you forgetting about your own bonus for months, and then another month after leaving the company still leaves you eligible for said non-contractual bonus, then what _is_ the statute of limitations? Would you email them 10 years later and ask for the bonus?

If Steve Jobs promised you a company trip to Hawaii if you got the Macintosh shipped on time, and EVERYONE forgot and didn't care, or Steve took everyone out for sushi instead, would you email Apple inc. tomorrow and insist they send you to Hawaii??

As it is, you left the company on bad terms and decide to publicly shame them. You will have trouble getting future employment as a result. Your future earnings has just potentially decreased by substantially more than $10k. How would you feel if after someone fired you they blogged about all the mistakes you made on the job publicly referring to you by name? You just don't do this. It's bad for business.

(On some level, though, I wish I felt like naming names, because that company is still in business, despite that one quarter where they suddenly stopped paying everyone. But don't worry - they're almost certainly nobody you've ever heard of or done business with)

Never heard of Miso (other than the awesome soup) but this is heavily damaging to the brand (for developers). They really should have paid if the new employee was working out, not anything based on the employees performance. Isn't a referral based on getting a good additional asset? Without that referral would you be less a good developer, then pay the bonus.

For the OP, probably should have just moved on as destroying bridges is not a good idea, the world is smaller than we think.

Future employers who read this post will think twice about hiring you -- frankly, this is rather unprofessional. Yes, the Miso founders might be in the wrong, but you can still take the high road.

I've never heard of a former employee receiving a bonus – referral or otherwise. The idea of a referral bonus is rewarding someone for /growing/ the team, and if you leave before that term is up, or if you leave before you file for the bonus, it's ridiculous to ask for it later – especially when you've already deflated your good will with a company. Moreover, I've not heard of people receiving a referral bonus after forgetting to claim it. I've forgotten to claim one! But I'd never think its anyone else's fault but mine, and my company is backed by an enterprise with a lot of resources.

Hey, I dunno, maybe I'm too busy putting my heart in the work to focus on stuff like this. People like the `jzhwu` whine, foster negative energy, and distract our community from focusing on good work.

Or maybe I'm just secure – financially and mentally. I don't need to squeeze money from former employers or vent my discontent because I'm focused on what I'm doing now, and what I'll do next, and how I'm growing as a designer and a person. I hope this guy discovers a more mature mindset before he does more damage to his career.

Finally, I'm also disappointed by the many people who can't see this for what it is – I assume they're the same crowd that's taking to badmouthing "brogrammers."

How accurately suited their name relates after this.

Nuking the database isn't related at all to his entitlement to the referral bonus. Publicly naming is risky for future prospects as well. Hopefully, your integrity shines above the perceived lack of loyalty that future employers will see. I think you made the right call naming, but without legal intervention, you won't see a penny of that $10k.

Just remember that the revisionist history will always go on unless you're on the best of terms with the founders always. The fact that my old boss had been there longer than me simply made his he said more powerful than my he said. It is incredibly discouraging how sketchy this industry is becoming, and I hope more people speak out in situations like these before it is too late.

1. Public shaming

2. Work with a lawyer

3. Litigation

I'm taking this purely from the author's perspective, how can he get a successful outcome?

Public shaming has some downsides for the author:

- Threatening to publicize may give you some leverage. But you lose all your leverage once you take action. Losing leverage isn't good in negotiation.

- The founders of Miso are now likely furious with him, and emotionally determined to prove themselves right and him wrong. He's just increased their conviction to the point where they may fight it with irrational determination.

- It's easy to get a detail wrong, especially on an emotional topic. If the author made some mischaracterizations (even accidentally) in his post, he could be opening himself up to litigation. Especially when you think about the bullet directly above.

My recommendation to anyone is to talk with a lawyer first. I noticed some of the responses here suggest that going to a lawyer is somehow underhanded. It is not. I'm not talking about a scum-sucking bottom-feeding accident lawyer. I'm talking about a business lawyer. Usually you can get a free consultation. If not, paying for an hour or two of his time is well worth it. Consider it a form of tuition to the school of hard knocks.

Often, a lawyer could give you some pointers to either help accelerate a successful negotiation of your own, or point out any weaknesses in your case that you may have overlooked. If the matter is complex, you could have the lawyer negotiate on your behalf. This could take the form of writing a single letter to the employer.

Once that letter is on file, the employer will need to disclose it as an outstanding dispute in their future disclosures for any financing round or sale of the company, unless they settle it. This is why the employer may actually have less power than the employee in negotiating a dispute. And why you should take the honorable route, with a lawyer to help you understand the law and take the right actions.

The best way to avoid litigation is to work with an attorney. Litigation is very unnecessary, expensive, time consuming, and a distraction. I've always been able to resolve any disagreements without the need for litigation.

Think of an attorney as a guide through dangerous territory. He's been through dozens or hundreds of similar situations. He's seen how to get resolution, and he's seen things that have worked out badly. And he knows how the law views the matter. The law is complicated.

Finally, I cant possibly have an opinion about whether the employer or employee are right or wrong in this case because I haven't heard the other side. And I suggest that the rest of you take a similar neutral position.

If it were me I'd get an attorney to take it up on my behalf. If you have a friend who is an attorney who can do it, even better. File a small claims suit. Make them show up or hire an attorney. Settle out of court for five or six grand or go to court and take your chances. Sounds to me like you have a very good case complete with emails to show consideration. Split the money with your friend (or pay the attorney). Move on satisfied that you made them pay up.

First of all. Thank you. I made this post with hopes that someone out there can learn something from this. Needless to say I got a lot more than what I was expecting. I'm humbled by the attention and support I've gotten from everyone. Strangers and friends alike. The 10k I'll be getting will be going to charity to celebrate the integrity, compassion and passion demonstrated by the community at large.

I want to especially thank the Hacker News community for helping this get the attention I believe it deserved. The discussions it generated in the comments section was fruitful for everyone. Again, thank you all. None of this would've been possible without your help.

Having said that, I don't think it is correct to name and shame the company this way because it damages the reputation of the firm, and thus making it more difficult to claim the bonus. I'd have hired a lawyer and settle with the company (i.e., claim the bonus and legal expenses) if I were him.

Between the two of these sense usually prevails. However, this one appears to have made it past both barriers and out into the public.

When you work your heart out for a company, you expect the company to look out for you. Loyalty is a two way street, at least this is how I used to manage my people and I would go above and beyound to protect them.

All said, the OP harmed himself as much as he harmed Miso. Although I side with OP on principle, his rash reaction would make me hesitate to ever hire him. It would have been better to have exhausted all other options, before trying to burn your old company.

I would not hire somebody who behaves this way.

Asking developers and entrepreneurs (as awesome as they might be) legal questions is about as useful as asking my lawyer engineering questions.

Name and shame, awesome, now get a lawyer.

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like Miso may have made a business decision, and you are reminding them of the cost side of that equation.

Then it is equitable that those who seek employment communicate with each other about especially bad behavior by employers.

I applaud your courage in posting this.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_media

Very easy, I've done the small claims court before, piece of cake.

Any time you see this, you can be pretty much guaranteed that it's entirely about the money and nothing more. If you want to prove to yourself that it's about principle of exposing poor business ethics, then give some or all of the money to a total stranger (or a charity) when you get it. Not going to happen? Then you're not really in it for the principle.

I must say, I completely agree. This is how it works. Your referral bonus is a perk, and nothing more. You didn't claim it. They weren't on top of it. You both failed here. But then you quit. And you left without it. That sucks for you, but they owe you nothing.

Regardless of whether or not Miso is right to evade their promise of a bonus, I'm not so quick to heap sympathy upon rremoncake.

This certainly isn't the kind of dirty laundry that belongs on HN.