Wear OS "Hybrid" design has two OSes, two CPUs, "100 hour" battery life | Hacker News Reader

Wear OS "Hybrid" design has two OSes, two CPUs, "100 hour" battery life

arstechnica.com

38 pointsrbanffy74 comments

"A smartphone-style smooth-scrolling UI usually leads to smartphone-style battery life"

Pebble needs rise from the ashes of Fitbit/Google and reclaim the epaper-with-buttons crown.

That's the Garmin line of products with MIP displays.

Thankfully they didn't bury the entire acquired Pebble IP and started utilizing it from almost the get-go. Howver my Pebble Time Steel is still going strong - I pay barely any mind to charging once a week. It was a real surprise when Pebble folded just as Pebble 2 was GA-ing.

Garmin didn't buy Pebble's remains, FitBit did (now owned by Google).

Ah, mixup on my end. You're correct.

Went from an Apple Watch to a Garmin Instinct Solar. Very happy with it. "Smartwatch-lite" features like notifications and music control but with a week+ battery and rugged design. Highly recommended.

It's that "rugged design" that puts me off, sadly.

Have you looked at the other watches in the Garmin line? None are omega watches, that's for certain, but different models have different aesthetics

A niece damaged mine, but I also think they were going SO much in the right direction. Now you reminded me how much I missed my Pebble and the expectations I had for their future. :(

Is there an e-paper option, at all, with some sort of toggle for lighting/backlight/etc?

I realize this is contrary to the power saving, but reading e-paper in the dark is tough.

Kindles usually have a very nice backlight that you can turn on. It works quite well and doesn't seem to diminish the screen's paper like characteristics.

I think GP knows you can get an ereader with a backlight, they're asking about a watch form-factor.

In this case, both. :)

:) I can add that Kobo Clara 2E has a nice backlight

I'll check it out. While the Kindle itself isn't a bad tablet, I want Amazon to drive off a cliff in a flaming shitwagon, so non-Amazon options are preferred. Thanks!

Ha! I feel similarly, if not as eloquently.

Installed https://github.com/koreader/koreader on mine + enabled SSH server.

That sounds like a fun little project. Thanks!

Isn't this a bit of an embarrassment for both Google and Qualcomm?

Still, it's good to see another company still trying to compete with Apple over smart watches, I would consider picking one of these up if I still had an Android phone, I think rounded smart watches are much cooler.

Watches have been moving to a model where they offload more and more work to an MCU for a while now. All modern wearos watches are already doing so. It's just what tasks it'd be able to do that's been evolving, and OnePlus hit the latest milestone first.

It would be great to have an soc tailor made for watches such that this isn't necessary, but no one is really interested in that it seems.

Not really, this is just the downside of using larger, more capable CPUs is that they have higher power consumption. It's the same problem Apple has as well, it's not like it's a Qualcomm-specific problem.

How is this embarrassing? 12 days of low power mode allegedly (vs 1.5 days for the apple watch) seems impressive.

Where did you get 12 days of low power mode? I read the article and the linked product page. Both only claim up to 100 hours.

On the product page:

> "Efficiency meets longevity": The BES 2700 efficiency chipset also lets you switch to the extra-capable Power Saver Mode* for up to 12 days of battery life so you can continue crushing your goals.

No? It's one of their first major feature/tech advantages over Apple Watch.

It absolutely is an embarrassment. There is no reason the one CPU couldn't do both jobs, one where the CPU powers up every 250ms and does the low-power work for a fractional microsecond and then shuts down, and the other just by staying awake longer. You still want a custom chip that can power various subsystems up and down on command. But there is no need to be big and clunky.

What this indicates is a management failure: they could not get a team together that could manage both low-power and high-feature software in the same stack.

It is somewhat reminiscent of the Apollo missions where they had one computer in command module, and a completely different (and massively clunkier) one in the rocket. Von Braun boasted that only one wire connected the command/service modules to the rocket, which was only there to trigger the explosive bolts.

Finally treating small battery powered devices as embedded devices rather than small PCs. Still no match for Garmins's battery life though.

Ridiculous overengineering to a "simple" problem – beefy operating systems do not need to run on smartwatches, having them is a huge waste. My Garmin is 5 years old and still lasts 15 days with an AOD and constant bluetooth connection

There is room for multiple watch types out there. A beefy feature filled watch may not be worth the tradeoff in battery life for you, but for others it's perhaps better. As long as you buy the watch model that fits your preferences, the existence of the models that you don't like shouldn't affect you. It's not like they have sucked up all the energy in the space preventing folks from making watches with longer battery life.

Sure, I just think the gap between "beefy feature filled watch"s and Garmins. I mean, obviously the fitness features of garmin are actually more beefier, and Garmin watches have the ability to read notifications, control music, pick up calls, find your phone, see your calendar, and do basically every single thing I can think of wanting in a smart watch.

What features are you referring to specifically? The only thing I can think of is voice control.

It feels a bit like saying the built in car media console can show maps, answer phone calls, read notifications, etc. That all may be true, but I prefer the experience you get from Android Auto.

Some of the features I use on my Apple Watch all the time:

- Turn-by-turn directions with full-featured map apps.

- Stream and control podcasts.

- Ditto Audiobooks.

- As a remote shutter for my phone camera (eg group selfies).

- Dedicated 3rd party fitness apps (Alltrails, strength training apps).

I understand all this functionality is not everyone's cup of tea, but there's clearly a market for it.

Touche. Almost all of these I can concede a smartwatch might do better. I do just want to mention that: Garmin has offline maps of your whole region (eg NA) and the ability to provide directions. Obviously not as good as RT traffic data, but also offline has been helpful occasionally. My garmin can control podcasts as well. Remote shutter is unfortunately a limit of phone APIs, I tried making an app for this. My garmin has synced well to 3rd party apps, and I can't think of many reasons I'd want 3rd party fitness apps like AllTrails on it?

More relevant to my original point, however, is none of these things you mentioned require a beefy processor – they could all easily be implemented in a context like Garmin.

That's fair, a lot of these features do not require a beefy processor. I think the value lies in the AW being a full-featured platform. Its processor is overkill for the lightest use-cases like remote shutter, but for others it's nice having a smartphone-like experience.

Case in point: Maps are full featured, it's not just about traffic, it's also about points of interest, supporting different modalities (crucially, public transit), and generally feeling like the full maps experience.

Like any other platform, 3rd party apps are nice for niches that the manufacturers do not serve, or do not serve well. For example, lifting apps make it super easy to log sets, reps, rest, etc; useful data the core experience does not offer.

As mentioned earlier, I think there's room for both. I'm actually not opposed to sporting a Garmin for endurance sports, where battery life is king :)

Actually my Garmin does do points of interest, and supports either driving, walking or cycling directions, all fully offline. For two entire continents! All on device.

I concede that the experience looks a bit less polished than the nice UI of an Apple Watch, but it’s genuinely impressive the level of features in this thing.

The only one I miss is voice recognition, where it would be nice to just say “navigate home” and have it go. And I’m not sure if that’s possible on the weak processors

Yeah. It's surely rough around the edges UX wise, but people consistently underestimate what you can do with such a low powered processor. If Garmin hired UI designers & worked on getting more companies to make apps for it, it could easily be the best smartwatch.

Garmin will also log weight training bouts and auto-detect reps and sets. You can program the entire bout into the phone app and track it as you go with the watch.

Even better, my COROS is priced at $200 and lasts three weeks. (I mention this because I started to question Garmin a few years ago because they paid a ransom after they got hacked, and then I realized that COROS undercuts them on price by a lot. It's a fantastic smartwatch.)

I wonder who these numbers (100 hours for this, 72 hours for Apple's "ultra" watch) are intended to impress. They are not up to par.

COROS wasn't as much of a thing when I bought my watch, but I personally intend to stick with Garmin when I need a new watch. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with transmitting my activity data to China, I'm not confident COROS will have longitivtiy, and my Garmin support experience has kept me as a loyal customer (had a nasty injury that scratched the screen of my watch – replaced for 45$. Silicon band was giving my rashes – Nylon band sent for free)

Your Garmin also doesn't have a voice assistant, let alone one that is always listening for my commands, which I use daily and hands free.

What do you use it for? I'm trying to determine where my line between "makes your life better" and "is a new toy" is. I like my Garmin because it does what I want it to and last forever, but I'm wondering if there's actually killer features I'm missing.

It seems that my smartphone bridges a lot of that gap (including listening for my voice commands) and I don't know how much more convenient something being on my wrist is, but I'm genuinely curious.

As someone who previously used an Apple Watch and now uses a Garmin, my takeaway is that the Garmin is significantly better for sports, and enough so that I'll keep the Garmin, but there are a lot of things that I really miss about the Apple Watch:

- Easy volume/media control of whatever happens to be playing on my HomePods - Instant access to Siri for setting timers, conversions, etc, without having to pick up my phone - Feeling like I don't have to constantly carry my phone around the house with me, because I can send/receive texts and even calls on the watch - Interactive HomeAssistant notifications - e.g. receive a notification on the watch when arriving home and being able to unlock my door with a tap. - Better notification support in general

Interesting. How do you answer calls on the watch? It's not the speaker / microphone is it?

Yes, you can make/receive phone calls using the built-in speaker/mic on the watch. It’s not the best, but it works. Alternatively you can use AirPods or a Bluetooth headset.

I setteled on fitband watch with 2 weeks battery life as well.

Voice assistant is frequently convenient once you get use to it. Then I remember 90% of that functionality I already have with google assistant pod in kitchen or phone in car. I do have a few friends who can only talk to their watches for some reason, maybe it feels cooler.

> I already have with google assistant pod in kitchen or phone in car.

That was my thought too. I can just yell at google in my house, and if I'm out and about I'm not talking to anything, I'm going to type.

Oh, another nice one is Apple Pay on the wrist. Convenient being able to pay without pulling your phone out, or even if you don’t have your phone with you.

I think the overall takeaway is that before I had an Apple Watch I thought that it would increase my level of distraction, but it actually did the opposite and decreased my dependence on my phone.

Yeah, my Garmin (an Instinct 2 Solar) has ruined me for other smartwatches. I appreciate not having to think about charging it in the summer and only monthly in the winter. I appreciate the reliability of an always-on screen rather than one that usually turns on when I turn my wrist. I appreciate the consistency of buttons that I have learned by feel rather than fiddly touch/voice controls that usually work the way I want.

I'd consider upgrading it someday so that I don't need to bring a phone for podcasts or ad-hoc navigation, but only if those do not come at the expense of battery life, always-on screen, and physical buttons.

(Edit: I'm glad other devices with different tradeoffs exist for different kinds of people though!)

The biggest benefit of a smartwatch with a fuller OS is that it can give you more data. On my watch face, I have the weather, the AQI air quality rating, and the UV index. I'm outside a lot, so this is real-time data that I find very helpful to have be glanceable.

You can have all that with the Garmin watches as well. They keep constant Bluetooth connection with your phone and can display realtime weather/ air quality/ etc on the always-on display.

I have the weather on my watch face as well, though I do have to drill into the weather widget/glance to see the air quality index and UV index. Skimming the Garmin Connect IQ Store it looks like I could add those metrics to my watch face if I install a 3rd party data field or widget.

I will admit that I haven't installed very many 3rd party apps and my subjective impression is that many Garmin users never end up using 3rd party apps. The apps also look a bit utilitarian compared to Apple Watch apps. Still, having tried various kinds of smartwatches I definitely prefer a wearable that acts more like an appliance than a wrist-mounted computer.

Next we'll be measuring battery life in thousands of minutes to avoid the uncomfortable parallel of watches that last over a week.

Some of the new Suunto watches are bragging with 60 days battery life (with solar probably), but still. I only managed to get a little over two weeks out of mine.

I will only use a watch that can viably replace a phone. That basically means a small smartphone, including LTE. With this package, I don't need my phone most of the time (leave it at home, or in a bag or coat). I can make payments, take calls and messages, and check my email. No need to carry a big hunk around in my pocket.

Current gen smartphones are basically there, with just a few improvements to UI and battery life. But even now, I don't mind charging every day. I just put the phone on the charger before going to bed, it's not a big deal.

I agree. I have a Withings Steel HR - it cost $90 in 2020 (early pandemic purchase). The battery takes 10 minutes to charge from 20% to full, and lasts 4 months of constant wearing.

It's what I call a dumb smartwatch. It uses your phone for GPS, and notifications, and things like that. It keeps time on its own, and heart rate monitoring every 5 minutes unless you are in workout mode.

On the other hand... beefy operations is what makes smart watches truely smart. Otherwise they're bluetooth censor pods, which is fine. But it would be nice if Google had better ways to offload heavier processes on phone and have watch on lighter OS with long battery life.

And a 100 day support lifespan before Google kills it (again)

Perhaps a bit of a tangent, but are there other folks on HN who still wear "dumb" watches? I personally cannot find the idea of these landfill-destined gadgets compelling enough to add yet another screen in close proximity to my eyes. I can't be the only one :)

I still use a dumb watch (the classic Timex Ironman Triathlon) when I workout sometimes or when I'm coaching and I just need a stopwatch, I have yet to see a smartwatch that makes a very good stopwatch. Even some of the exercise specific smartwatches like the Garmin Forerunners don't do stopwatch as well as a Timex.

As a coach I've been seeing a lot of smartwatches on kids lately that are maybe a little young for a smartphone, they seem to be the go-to choice these days for parents to keep track of their kids. That seems like a decent fit, by the time the watch dies the kid will probably be old enough for a smartphone anyway.

Currently wearing my Hamilton Khaki Field during work hours, and wear the Pilot Day Date Auto after hours.

There is beauty in the engineering of a mechanical watch. It is, to me, functional jewelry. Though it's nice to see smartwatches get better regarding battery life and low refresh displays.

Once a non-apple watch does truly reliable and useful health tracking, I may switch over for it. For notifications and time, I'm good for now.

CA53W never did me wrong

I have a few fossil watches I wear. Never really felt compelled to put something smart on my wrist, even if every MBA's wet dream in the mid-late 2000's was to make a smartwatch.

Amazfit Bip is the answer, as has been since 2018. My Bip Lite does 18 days with constant heartrate and sleep monitoring, and notifications.

My Huawei GT Pro 2 from a few years ago still does 2-3 weeks between charges, why is 100 hours being shouted about?

Because this one will do Google Assistant and Maps, which would be occasionally useful, or very useful for drivers. I don't know if it's worth sacrificing 2.5 weeks of battery life for.

Mine only has the cheesy Petal Maps from the Huawei store thingy, because they're banned from play store I think.

I actually like Petal Maps and a few other hacky map apps for Huawei watch that just hijacks and displays notification directions. I do find it minimally viable for dumb smartwatch OS navigation. No transit support for my region though, which would be my primary use case. The other playstore apps can also hook into google maps from my understanding but has subscription which is big nope for just reading notifications.

I think my only complaint about Huawei watch is the buttons can't trigger camera shutter which $30 xiaomi band does fine. And the buttons can't be reprogrammed well. That and the watch face store is horribly organized. Jumping through hoops to get it synced to Google is annoying. But overall I'd take a nice looking fitness band with 3 weeks battery life over smart watch that has be recharged every few days.

I love the finish and materials on mine, the battery life, screen is good, fitness features are good. If I wanted the same in a Garmin it would be orders of magnitude more expensive.

hmmm maybe. but in my experience the 1st party watch faces are horrible. I like a large "TIME" in the center and the rest of the watch face to be an informational dashboard. the more i can cram on the better

Happy with my up to 31 days amoled watch.

I had no idea there were Android watches.

When did you last go to the store?

That's...odd. They've been around longer than Apple Watches. What kind of smart watch did you think that people who use Android wear?

I know a couple of Android users who wear Apple Watch, but I don't think I've ever seen an Android watch - but then again it's not like I've ever looked out for one, and having now looked them up I see that there's a ton of different form factors so it possibly wouldn't have been obvious if I had. How are they, any good?

No idea, I’ve never used one :) I get the sense it’s on par with Apple Watch though.

I’m surprised to hear you say you know Android users who wear Apple Watch — I wonder what that user experience is like.

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