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> Without being a super eco-conscious person, I am wondering if those ultra-fast-fashion is sustainable. I am sure some of those products are great. But the amount of trash that it would generate is staggering.

It isn't. If you want to dress sustainably, you should be primarily buying second-hand clothes (and ideally ones that are made from textiles that survive years of wear and wash). Fast-fashion is an ecological disaster, both in terms of the sheer volume of low-quality material produced and its byproducts (e.g. dye discharges in water from factories).

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The problem is that choosing clothes that will last is extremely hard for a layperson.

I have €20 shirts that have lasted for more than a decade and €100 shirts that looked like crap after a few months. Brand is not a guarantee either, I have bought superficially similar products from the same brand with radically different results (I suppose they were made in different factories). Same goes for material, there is 100% cotton clothing that is great and other is absolute crap. Over the years I have found a few brands that I more or less trust, but the process involves a staggering amount of trial and error because most brands are just either bad or inconsistent. In particular, European brands seem to be the worst offenders (and I say this as an European). American brands seem somewhat more reliable, although this might be just statistical noise from small sample or selection bias from American brands that reach Europe.

In general, I find the whole textile industry outraging. No other physical goods industry that I know has so little regard for the customer. What would happen if a brand sold 14" laptops that actually were 13" and short-circuited your whole home when plugged in? At the very least people would return them, and probably many would sue. But with clothes, it's very common to buy size 36 pants that turn out to be smaller than your size 34 pants (apparently, they haven't mastered the technology of measuring tape) and that bleed dye and spoil your whole laundry when you wash them. And we have somehow collectively decided that those obviously avoidable things are acceptable. Why?

> In general, I find the whole textile industry outraging. No other physical goods industry that I know has so little regard for the customer.

I'd point at software, but I guess it's not physical, so the next "best" thing would be... just about all the bottom-feeder dirt cheap stuff from Aliexpress/Temu/etc., that I'm even more apalled that they exist now that I hear they're being shipped by air.

Anyway.

> And we have somehow collectively decided that those obviously avoidable things are acceptable. Why?

I imagine for the same reason most tech sucks: because the market is supply-driven, and doesn't get any useful feedback from the customers. Buyers choose from what is available, and the choice is only between bearing the bullshit, or doing without a category of goods - which for clothes is even harder than with smartphones... It's neat little local minimum in developed markets: even when the barrier to entry is low (much easier to launch a clothes line than build a smartphone), the most profitable move for all competitors is still to double-down on the race to the bottom.

Or put another way: customers have a certain amount of dissatisfaction they're willing to tolerate. Anything more satisfying than that limit is just leaving money on the table.

I mentioned to a colleague today the sweater I was wearing was 12 years old (discussing this exact fast fashion subject). He said "you just kept it in the closet for 12 years?" - Nope, it's my fav sweater to wear. I handwash it and hang dry it, as I do all my clothes, and it was made in Portugal from quality materials, works out to $35 a year (~$400 sweater).

I wear mostly swag T-shirts, but they are dear to me because of what they represent, so I split between hand-washing and washer with bronners, and always hang-dry. I have not seen any significant wear in years. I think dryers are the big destroyers of clothes. If you look at the lint, it makes sense, since that's all clothes material worn away by friction.

Heat is particularly bad, so is drying in the sun. I handwash in cold with baby shampoo. I have a "drying closet" I've built. I must confess... figuring out stuff that will last 100 years is a bit(coughhugecough) of a hobby of mine. I get very into who designed something, why they did it, what materials they selected, what factory they used. It's a bit weird I guess as I'm obsessive about it, but I really enjoy it. Nice to see someone else taking care of their clothes!

> I have a "drying closet" I've built.

Interesting, is there some sort of desiccant, or active drying method involved?

Not sure about GP’s setup by I accidentally have a drying closet too. It’s quite common where I live. There is a cold water clothes washer next to my bathroom. In the bathroom there is a retractable clothes line (just a wire in a spring reel and hook on the opposite wall). I have a dehumidifier in there which must run 24/7 anyway or the house will mould. Just put to wet clothes on the line, put the dehumidifier on clothes drying mode, and close the door. Doesn’t take long for the clothes to dry, and my things last much longer than when I was in the US and used a tumble drier. Not to mention my t-shirts don’t get all misshaped.

Oh that's clever. We dry our clothes on a rack in the corner of the livingroom (the added humidity is a bonus here, because otherwise we would have to run a humidifier all the time), but this (esp. the folding of the dry clothes) generates quite a lot of tiny dust particles which are kinda annoying.

We have the same drying closet! Except mine is on purpose, but that is hilarious!!!! I've never met anyone else who puts a dehumidifier in a closet to dry clothes. I actually do add a tiny amount of heat (space heater on low) as I very much don't want any smell.

I mentioned using bronners, but most of the time I just wash my clothes with just warm water.

What I have noticed is that when I do this, my clothes no longer develop a mildewy smell if I forget them sitting wet. They still come out smelling clean (i.e. not smelling.)

Would really love to hear more about your hobby! What are some of your greatest finds and lessons? Where do you go for information and insight?

What categories of "stuff" do you see as something that could last 100 years?

Looking around me and from my memories: houses (brick, stone, metal,) books and good quality paper, bicycle frames (metal), good quality furniture, metal knives forks and spoons, paintings, anything made of glass or metal.

>houses (brick, stone, metal,

Houses fall apart quickly without maintenance: when roofs fail, or moisture gets in through other means, you get mold and other problems. Plumbing problems can also cause a lot of destruction. Also, earthquakes will quickly topple houses made of brick and stone.

>books and good quality paper,

Lots of books don't have good quality paper, and it falls apart after a few decades. It might not be such a problem now, but a lot of latter-20th-century books have fallen apart because of this.

>bicycle frames (metal)

Steel bike frames rust, and both steel and aluminum frames can have welds break because of the stresses of riding and use. However, most of the money in a decent bicycle is in the wheels and components, not the frame, unless you have a high-end bike (carbon fiber), and these all wear out with use.

>good quality furniture

Highly susceptible to water damage, even from drinks. Finishes get beat up with use. Wood warps with moisture changes. Solid wood furniture without veneers is probably best for avoiding ugly damage from use, but warps easier, and costs a lot.

>paintings

These only last because people are really careful with them. Even so, to be really kept in good shape they need highly controlled conditions: ask any art museum.

>anything made of glass or metal.

Glass stuff is easily broken from use.

You need a blog.

And I need to read it.

I didn't know people would be interested in this, I've always kept it a bit of a secret because I thought it was kinda weird and my wife razzes me like crazy for now intense I am about it. Guess I need a blog...

Just going to add on to this motivation; yes, we would all be super interested in this! It would be truly valuable to people and society at large.

I don't think it's weird at all. I would read that blog with great interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_waste

You should write about it and link it here. This is truly in spirit of hacker ethos.

Would be great to learn about your chosen items.

Irony of our times: we have to struggle to make things last 100 days in useful form, but as trash, they'll easily last 100 decades...

Pretty sure you’re a character in Gibson’s Zero History.

You handwash all your clothes? Your underwear, your workout clothes, your socks, your T-shirts?

Not the person you asked the question to but in my case the answer is yes, except for my underwear. That goes in the washing machine at 30 C (86 F).

Workout clothes are plastic, some T-shirts are plastic too, some are cotton. Socks are cotton or wool. I put them in a bucket of cold water with a detergent made for that (sorry, I don't know the English word for that.) Liquid for wool and socks, powder for the other clothes. Five minutes are enough. Up to here is not worse that putting everything into a washing machine and you can do it in any house.

The tedious part is washing away the soap with cold water. That takes time. I hang the T-shirts and the large clothes and wash them with a hand shower. You need a place to do it without flooding the house. For small clothes and socks, the bathroom sink. Squeeze out water gently by compression, don't twist.

Then I hang them to dry. From here on is the same as with a washing machine. Once they stop dripping water you can put them anywhere. In winter you need either a window in the sun or a source of heat or it will take forever and they'll smell. Don't put them directly on a heater, that would destroy anything plastic quickly. Leave a span.

This is not something that can be done in every house but if you can then clothes will last much longer especially the workout plastic ones. Check the detergents for water temperature, colors, type of fabric, time etc.

Edit: make sure to let air flow somehow because that water in the clothes must get out of the house or you'll get mold especially in some climates.

How is this any different from a washing machines handwash/delicate program? It soaks in soap with no movement, cold temperatures, then rinse it gently with water.

I wish that's how mine did it, even on the hand wash/delicate setting, it still does 3 spin cycles (although I'd guess not as fast as the other modes). But more importantly, I hand wash so I can spot clean. Easiest way to spot deep stains etc is when the clothes are wet and you can hand inspect them. I'm so obsessive about this stuff i won't even accept any fade in the blacks, and no yellowing in my whites.

> (~$400 sweater).

From Terry Pratchett:

"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness."

What kinda pisses me off with these things is that cost isn't a reliable indicator of quality. A lot of luck seems to be involved.

I've worn a 15 € supermarket-brand hoodie around the house for about ten years before it started showing any signs of fatigue at the elbows. I've had more expensive, "name brand" articles of clothing wear out after much shorter and lighter use. In between, the absolute worst was a 30-40 € H&M blouse which became two sizes too big after a month.

That's true, unfortunately. OTOH, I have several Tommy Hilfiger T-shirts bought in an outlet that lasted for 10+ years and still look Ok. I would say you're more likely to get quality out of "actual" brands than own-brands of stores such as H&M (which follow the fast-fashion trend too), but that's still not really reliable I'm afraid...

> you're more likely to get quality out of "actual" brands than own-brands of stores such as H&M (which follow the fast-fashion trend too)

Fashion brands aren't build for quality. They're built for aesthetic. If given a trade-off between ruggedness and something more frivolous and daring, a fashion brand should pick the latter. That's how they differentiate.

I once bought a Burberry hoodie in a Turkish market (not the ones with the name plastered all over it, subtitle little tag in a corner). It lasted for many years and my girlfriend at the time who was a lawyer at a prestigious lawfirm and lived in Kensington Ave. London thought it was the greatest piece of clothing I possessed. It cost 15 Euros, but probably only because I didn't know how to bargain properly, and it never occurred to her that it wasn't a real name brand apparel.

The sibling below mentions Tommy Hilfiger, and it just reminded me that one of the worst pieces of clothing I ever bought was from a Tommy store in New York.

One store that's absolutely worth a visit if you live in NY is the century 21 outlet mall near ground zero. I've been there twice when I attended a conference and you get really good quality clothing for cheap, that was absolutely worth it. Every single one of those lasted a long time.

Yup price != quality at all.

I too have a hoodie which is probably going on 15 years old now. It's finally started getting faded and looking a bit old but still very much usable, think it came from Walmart when I was visiting the US.

In the same vein I've got an old pair of dirt cheap trainers I bought on another US trip in about 2008, still abosolutely fine and cost under $20. In contrast the expensive pair of converse I bought less than 2 years ago are already falling apart.

Cost isn't necessarily an indicator of quality, but it is an indicator (often, of consistency in a brand). I mentioned the price not because of quality indicator, but because of how I approach it, is how I give myself permission to buy expensive things (I think about it over time): if I know they will last and they are made to my standard. As mentioned here[1] the whole clothes thing is a bit of a hobby/process for me. The sweater I was particularly mentioning was hand made in South Korea (I actually visited the factor) - everyone is paid properly, and most of their stuff is low impact[2] meaning they don't fly materials all over the world to assemble the garment. The sheep for their wool for example, is from Japan. For me this is part of a wholistic approach I have to living my life while minimizing my impact, I keep all my clothes with the intention of passing them down. I've yet to find anything outerwear(hoodies, jeans, shorts etc) made to my standard that is less than $100, I'm not sure it's possible if you include responsible sourcing.

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39533939 [2]https://textileexchange.org/responsible-wool-standard/

Oh, I agree with your point. But I can't afford to fly around the world and inspect factories. Hell, even if I could, I wouldn't have the time and the inclination to learn what to look for.

> if I know they will last and they are made to my standard

That's exactly the issue. How do you know that as a regular person?

I'm mostly happy with my shirts for example, which I think are made locally in France (but don't know how they source their materials). Their quality seems to be fairly stable, and if I buy them on sale, they're very good value for money.

But with other name brands, it's been more hit and miss. Levi's jeans, for example. One pair has lasted so long, I don't even remember when I've bought it, used it a lot riding a motorbike. Another pair has started thinning between the thighs in maybe two years of lighter use (going to the office or out around town), and it's never even been close to my bike.

> I've yet to find anything outerwear(hoodies, jeans, shorts etc) made to my standard that is less than $100, I'm not sure it's possible if you include responsible sourcing.

I'm absolutely fine with paying more for garments that last. What I hate, is paying a ton and ending up with poor quality.

If you would be able to articulate what you look for in a quality garment, I'm sure a lot of people would be more than happy to read on it.

How do you just buy guaranteed classics. i.e., I want the heinz ketchup of wardrobe items. Consistency. I mean, Levi 501 is an example... but beyond that, everything I wear is so basic but it keeps changing. Even Nike Airforce One's keep changing so much. I just want a black shirt that stays black, black pants that actually fit and don't rip, a black sweater that doesn't pill much, a black jacket that I can beat the hell out of... etc.

Buy "work" clothes. Dickies, Carhartt, etc. for socks and jackets. Pants too if you like the fit.

Doc Martens for footwear if you like boots; they're mendable.

Tilly's shirts have held up surprisingly well for me but I think they carry Dickies stuff there anyway.

Dryers degrade most clothing and cause pilling. Avoid them and hang dry wherever possible.

In the last 15 yrs, I've used a dryer no more that three times. Aside from being better for clothes, it's less gas / electricity (i.e., better on the environment). Sans super high humidity, it's not a bad habit to have.

I've seen a lot of people say that 501's got noticeably worse over the years. If you want good jeans buy traditional selvedge denim, you know the ones that can stand by themselves if you put them because they are so dense. Back then it was protective clothing so they are very durable.

I'm one of those people, though I don't use 501s specifically. I've noticed Levis quality has become hit-and-miss. I have two pairs, bought at the same time. Same model, same color, only the length is different [0], but same waist size.

They don't even fit the same! One is clearly larger, whereas the other was skin-tight when new. One seems somewhat thicker than the other.

Soo much that. I just want stuff that doesn't fall apart. I don't care much for fashion, I just don't want to buy pants every 2 years

It's funny you can easily spend 10-15 USD more and get a product that will last you 5 more years. Old Navy sounds like crap, it is but they have gems where flannal shirts are double stitched and hemmed perfectly. I even buy pants I haven't had to replace in years.

>It's funny you can easily spend 10-15 USD more and get a product that will last you 5 more years

....or not and it will fall apart just as quick if not quicker.

I wish if it was just "pay us extra and it will last longer"

Except in this case, $400 can also buy you one shirt per year for 12 years, all of which combined would most certainly last you longer than 12 years. Moreover you wouldn't have to waste your time babying them.

>I handwash it and hang dry it, as I do all my clothes

For those curious. Hang drying alone is a much smaller part of effort and gets you a lot closer to having your clothes not wear out prematurely.

I bought a wool jumper from Next about 7 years ago for probably around £30, and it's lasted me until now, and will probably last another 7 years.

I don't really take any special care, just put it in the washing machine every now and again.

Yeah Next are pretty good if you know what to look for, lots of their stuff isn't great but their 100% wool products are not bad at all. They use cheap dyes so their stuff isn't particularly colour fast, but if you take care of it, it will last a long time.

They use Merino wool, however not very much of their wool is sourced through the Responsible Wool Program(4% as of 2022), so there is a lot of wool in their cloths come from places you may not like how the sheep are treated. Their cotton is around 60% slave free(not bad for a fast fashion brand).

Overall clothes made in Portugal are very good quality, and they aren't all that expensive for what they are. [0][1] A good heuristic is to go for boring looks.

I recently got into sewing, turns out it's a very good way to learn how to recognise good quality clothes. It's also a very good way to recycle old adult clothes into brand new clothes for children. Highly recommend to any nerd wanting to do some manual labour away for the computer.

[0] French brand, all sorts https://www.loom.fr/

[1] British brand, underwear for men https://bluebuck.net/

Never heard of loom but their stuff is great, love they list their factories. Interesting they only guaranteeing 90% of the Portugal work is done to minimum wage, first time I've seen that level of honesty from a designer, good for them!

I often wonder if we've done consumers, at least in the USA, a significant disadvantage by retiring hard skills like sewing, woodshop, auto repair, cooking etc from middle and high schools. When you understand how to do something, you are more aware of when you're being ripped off, what is quality, and what truly you'd rather pay for someone else to do or provide for you. When you don't have any of those skills or knowledge, you don't know when you're being ripped off OR once you begin to feel you're being ripped off you have to develop the skills to provide what you're not willing or able to buy right in that moment where you have an immediate need.

Every single shirt I ever bought lives at the very least as shop rag; but it's kinda hard to upcycle pants material

I have some stuff like this, just let me beanie go after ten years. It cost me $200 but I wore it daily for ten winters under all kinds of circumstances. It was wool.

I have one like those: love it, perfect for skiing and other outdoor stuff in winter. I also "loose" it once per winter, only to find it a couole days of searching later. Unfortunately, it seems to be gone for good this time, 12 years in. Cost me 30 bucks back the day, just hope they still make similar ones.

And yes, I know that sounds a lot like Homer and his blue pants.

Technically walking into any store and buying clothes is more eco sustainable than anything Temu or Shein. Doesn't even have to be second hand as long as it was bulk delivered to that store and bought by you on that spot.

To be fair. The whole concept falls apart if you drive there with your car.

Is driving a single car to the mall really that much worse than a delivery truck making deliveries?

Yes. To lazy to cite, especially as the article was German and written for Switzerland, however the point was that even a badly organized delivery route and same day delivery is in most cases more efficient than driving a 5 or 10 minute distance.

I've been thrifting a bunch recently and it's amazing how different even a 90s tshirt feels compared to a modern one. There's a heft and thickness to it that just doesn't seem to be the priority anymore. Also everything now seems to not be just cotton but blend in something that lets it stretch.

> It isn't. If you want to dress sustainably, you should be primarily buying second-hand clothes (and ideally ones that are made from textiles that survive years of wear and wash). Fast-fashion is an ecological disaster, both in terms of the sheer volume of low-quality material produced and its byproducts (e.g. dye discharges in water from factories).

Well, clothes that survive years of wear and wash are not so easy to be found. And sustainable clothes that you can buy at your local shops are incredibly expensive and the resulting quality is still meh.

Fast fashion is on the rise since people don't want to spend big money on clothes that are almost comparable to the ones sold by fast fashion stores, but just with a big label on it.

IMHO the big blame isn't on consumers or on fast fashion stores, but on the competition, that lowered their quality, raised their prices and expected to make profit from this strategy.

To close the circle, people buy cheap things, including clothes, because their purchasing power hasn't scaled up like inflation, but in many countries the purchasing power has dropped (example: Italy, where salaries are stuck to the 1990 levels)

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