US judge halts government effort to monitor crypto mining energy use | Hacker News Reader

US judge halts government effort to monitor crypto mining energy use

theguardian.com

74 pointspseudolus88 comments

As I read it[1], the plaintiffs allege that the government has overstepped its authority by using emergency powers to make new demands for information under threat of prosecution. There is a plausible argument for that position, and so a TRO is appropriate while the questions are resolved.

[1]: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24440902-cryptoenerg...

That is exactly right.

Another case of something being done for the right reason, but in the wrong way because our legislative branch refuses to lift a finger.

This is really it. A dysfunctional Congress serves to empower the Executive. And the Judicial branch only serves as a check so long as the Executive cares to follow their rulings.

This isn't just a problem if we get a malicious Executive either. If judges keep saying the Executive doesn't have some power unless Congress acts, and Congress continues to not act, then the Executive might be put in a position where they have to ignore judicial rulings in order to govern. Technically Congress can impeach, but a dysfunctional Congress isn't likely to get that one done.

Govern isn’t a verb in American Federal law severable from Acts of Congress. If Congress doesn’t act, then the President and his subordinates are not lawfully empowered to act the way they think Congress should allow them to act. That’s why they spend a lot of time trying to stretch their interpretation of previous Acts of Congress still in effect to try to justify what they want to do under the law. Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes the courts tell them “Nah, dawg.”

Also willingness to impeach is demonstrably not the problem. The resulting trials is where Congress stuffs it all up.

s/if/when

At the limit, everything happens.

I’m generally of the same mind - but on the other hand if there isn’t consensus on certain policies at the national level isn’t inaction actually the right outcome?

The problem is that there usually is consensus that something should be done, especially among the public. But political infighting in congress over the last ~15 years stops any meaningful legislation from ever making it to the President's desk. Congress has been effectively abdicating more and more of their power to the executive branch.

And maybe that's a good thing? The consensus that something should be done is dangerous. It leads to "something must be done, this is something, therefore this must be done", which is terribly flawed logic that leads to terrible things being done.

If all the proposals are brain-dead stupidity, then refusing to pass one is actually Congress doing their job.

But the political climate of the last 15 years hasn't been congress deciding nothing should be done, it's been the two parties fighting over what or how it should be done, and filibustering anything that goes against their party line.

It’s super clear they’re abdicating their responsibility and creating a stronger executive (like not passing a budget with this nonsense continuing resolution stuff).

But the public wanting something is easy to get people to agree to that they want something (better schools, better healthcare, less crime, etc.) is pretty easy, how that is accomplished (including how it’s paid for) is incredibly hard (take education does that mean: school vouchers, charter schools, bigger budgets, school testing, performance expectations for teachers, union rules, etc.?)

It's weird that people are acting like commodities are under some sort of license when they are purchased. As far as I know they aren't. A world that tries to regulate this scares me more than one where people participate in futile hashing.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to begin considering. It's clear that the markets by themselves are not capable of addressing various concerns about our planet's limited resources. If we want our society to remain viable long term, we need to start being smart with how much of any given commodity is committed to how much of any given effort.

A new one, to be sure, and worth scrutinizing as we begin. But the market has demonstrated quite clearly it can't be trusted to manage finite resources.

I think the market has shown that growth is the solution rather than rationing. Lots of the humanitarian improvements of the 20th century (such as number of people starving) are improved due to market forces innovating on doing more with less. The same will no doubt happen to energy. Consumption is the catalyst.

OK but natural resources are unlikely to grow. Unregulated market forces lead to hell (and of course also is too much regulation)

They don't need to grow, efficiency can grow though as very aptly demonstrated in the 20th century.

Thermodynamics sometimes say that you can't. Also, if I can mine $x coins for y energy, I will generate a bit more of $money and remove natural resources. Value of coins may not keep their value in 2000 years, but co2 ppm/ecosystems/metals/whatever won't be there anymore, unless we know how to deal with them, that we may or we may not.

Market forces? It was the Haber process and subsequent innovations around nitrogen-fixing. It was scientific progress that saved us from Malthusian collapse.

On the other hand, market forces do explain why 40% of the American food supply is wasted [0] while 12% of American households suffer food insecurity [1].

[0] https://www.rts.com/resources/guides/food-waste-america/

[1] https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo...

> Lots of the humanitarian improvements of the 20th century (such as number of people starving) are improved due to market forces

This is a good point. The conversion of atmospheric nitrogen to ammonia is a capitalist reaction that would not occur under Regulations. Few people these days acknowledge all of the grain fields planted by Adam Smith in the early 1900s

We have limitless power on Earth from fusion (solar via the Sun) and from fission via Uranium/Thorium.

Which is fine if we mandate crypto may only consume renewables or low carbon energy for this work. We do not, so this is immaterial.

Energy usage is fungible. Just build more generating stations.

It's more about observing that perfect commodities don't exist - real life only matches the model under some conditions. What is typically considered a commodity stops behaving as one when demand outraces supply.

It's like Newton's laws of motion - they work for most of things we encounter day-to-day, but break down when bodies are heavy enough, small enough, and/or fast enough.

This is the form that miners allege will cause them irreparable injury and has cost them 40 hours to fill out: https://www.eia.gov/survey/form/eia_862/form.pdf

It's big and extremely invasive, and asks questions that are none of the government's business, and definitely none of that agency's business.

The form claims it should only take 30 minutes to complete. Laughable. It's 26 pages, and it's not simple, and it begins with a threat that being incorrect is a criminal offense.

It's so long because it has a space for up to 10 crypto facilities, with 2 pages per facility.

So basically 10 questions that need to be answered for a company that has a single crypto facility. And since power is such a large part of costs, I'd be surprised if most don't already know the answers to the power questions.

The stability and security of energy generation in the US is in fact the DOE's business.

If I opened a laundromat I doubt I’d need to fill out something for the DOE.

I think this is nothing more than another agency using the DOE for a conduit to get that information for them.

A laundromat does not affect how much generation you need - crypto facilities can and have.

If thousands of people cooperate to create a global money laundering operation that directly affects the power grid it makes sense to request some information from them.

Bugger off. Bitcoin is coming no matter what you think and eventually it will smack some responsibility into the irresponsible governments that are actually the biggest polluters and encouraging waste and consumption though endless fiat money printing and civilization scale money laundering.

Lovely language.

Bitcoin isn’t “coming,” it’s here and it’s a nightmare. People lose money down this drain every day and there’s next to no way to get it back. A serious transnational criminal problem that must be addressed and if the government wants to keep tabs on who profits from this, that’s be great.

Your assumptions couldn’t be more misguided. It’s glaringly obvious you’re part of the collectivist, statist, authoritarian crowd, like so many out there. But here’s the kicker: Bitcoin, with its Proof of Work (PoW) marvel, is cutting through the tyranny of your majority like a hot knife through butter.

Bitcoin is already outperforming the sluggish efforts of the IMF and World Bank, breathing life into renewable energy projects in the most forgotten corners of the world. This is revolutionizing local economies and lifting standards of living, far from your narrow, outdated critiques.

Now, let’s dissect the energy “problem.” Yes Bitcoin will eventually devour 1-2% of the planet’s energy, but calling it a problem is missing the point. This consumption is a beacon, signaling the dire need for more energy production. Bitcoin isn’t just sitting there; it’s actively pushing for energy innovation and sustainability, something your limited perspective fails to grasp.

And who made you the arbiter of good versus bad energy use? Do cloud services, AI, gaming, and your mundane household activities get a free pass? The real issue is your lack of vision, stuck in a defeatist echo chamber. Bitcoin is addressing the massive demand for a currency that’s private, uncensored, and deflationary. You might not like it, but it’s because you’re too caught up playing traffic cop, basking in telling others what to do.

You also overlook the ingenious utilization of Bitcoin’s ‘waste’ heat, a byproduct turned asset. This isn’t merely about keeping some servers running; it’s about a visionary leap towards using every joule of energy to its fullest. Bitcoin mining operations are pioneering the capture and repurposing of waste heat for practical, everyday uses - from water heaters in homes to boosting agricultural yields. Imagine a world where the excess heat from securing a decentralized financial network warms homes, powers greenhouses, and promotes sustainability. This isn’t a hypothetical future; it’s happening now. And as for the global energy supply, your argument falls short by ignoring the pressing necessity for a dramatic increase in energy production. To genuinely elevate the living standards of every human being on this planet out of poverty, we require energy solutions that are orders of magnitude greater than what’s currently available. Bitcoin’s energy consumption, far from being a wasteful curse, is a catalyst for this much-needed energy revolution, driving innovation and investment in renewable sources at a scale previously unimaginable.

As for the financial drain, let’s get real. Over any 5-year span, Bitcoin has been a golden ticket compared to the sinking ship of fiat currency, plagued by inflation and collapse. Bitcoin is on track to eclipse Silver and even challenge Gold as a store of value. And all the supposed “problems”? Solved. Layer 2 solutions, altcoins, and stablecoins are gearing up to handle global transaction volumes, with Bitcoin as the unshakeable foundation.

Your darling governments and their policies? More often than not, they’re the real hurdles to progress, wielding violence and spreading misery under the guise of collectivist and socialist dreams. And let’s not even start on the education system, brainwashing generations with fairytales instead of truth.

Money laundering? Look in the mirror. The biggest laundromats are your central banks and government policies, sanctifying grand-scale financial crimes under the guise of legality. Bitcoin is the least of your worries if you’re genuinely concerned about corruption and illicit finance.

You’re right, Bitcoin isn’t just coming; it’s already here, tearing down the facades of the leeches, parasites, and warmongers. With leaders who get it inching closer to power, we’re on the brink of a financial renaissance. Picture it: a Swiss bank account in every pocket, the ultimate nightmare for the likes of Obama and his collectivist cronies. And guess what? There’s nothing you can do to stop it.

Hopefully you didn’t type all of that on my account, because I can’t possibly read or respond to this type of thing. Good luck in your pursuits.

I have a repository of Bitcoin education materials which allows me to respond to the numerous uneducated comments like yours when I so choose.

Charming. I’m afraid you’ll find me immune to this disease.

Don’t worry I’m used to collectivists suddenly having reading comprehension issues and being “too busy” to respond when faced with hard to counter arguments.

I would be entirely unsurprised to learn that you are very accustomed to conversations like this.

Do you figure there’s a reason so many of your conversations turn out this way? Perhaps you choose very dim witted people to talk with? Maybe the problem is that you’re much smarter than everyone, so no matter who you converse with, they end up bowing out half way through because your ideas are too much for them?

I gotta say, this must be a hard way to plow through life but I salute your endurance! Hopefully you manage to get everyone educated up to your level.

I need you to understand something. This comment is so utterly unhinged that it's either parody or something you take way, way too seriously. This is a caricature of the prototypical bitcoin bro that everyone makes fun of. Nonsense like this is the exact reason that people mock and dismiss cryptobros.

You seem to not understand that someone can disagree with you without it being some grand conspiracy or authoritarian cabal. It is infinitely more likely that people disagree because they think you're a moron. People think you're a moron because you act like one. Spouting off about conspiracies and cabals and you've somehow pulled Obama into it?

You aren't being dismissed because the big bad communists want to steal your bitcoins. You're being dismissed because you're pasting nine whole paragraphs of absolute insane ramblings.

Your command to "understand" is delightfully authoritarian, a classic hallmark of the traffic cop mentality. It's as if my non-conformity offends you on a personal level. Labeling me as "unhinged" is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to cognitive dissonance; you're confronted with a narrative that challenges your deeply ingrained respect for authority and, finding no rebuttal, resort to ad hominem attacks.

It's amusing how seriously you insist Bitcoin cannot be taken, despite it now commanding 1% of energy supplies in numerous locales and the cryptocurrency market cap reaching $2T. This isn't a fad; it's a serious economic revolution. Were those of us who believed from the start, including luminaries like Timothy C May, Intel's chief scientist, all "morons"? Or is the true folly in dismissing what you fail to comprehend, resorting to juvenile labels like "cryptobros"?

You accuse me of spouting conspiracy theories, yet I've merely stated historical and economic facts. The founding of the Bank of England for waging war, the inherent violence of fiat currencies leading to confiscation and inflation crises worldwide—these are not conspiracies, they are realities that you choose to ignore.

Your dismissal stems from a place of fear, not superiority. Governments and their conformist, collectivist, and statist cheerleaders fear Bitcoin because it represents a fundamental shift in power dynamics. Your attempts to ban or discredit it only underscore its resilience and anti-fragility.

As for communists or any government's ability to "steal" Bitcoin, you misunderstand the very essence of this technology. Bitcoin represents a shift away from the state's monopoly on violence and financial control. And yes, Obama's apprehension about Bitcoin granting every citizen a "Swiss bank account in their pocket" speaks volumes—not about the feasibility of stopping Bitcoin, but about the threat it poses to centralized control.

Call me unhinged, a conspiracy theorist, or whatever else makes you sleep better at night. But I challenge you, find one "conspiracy" in what I've said. Your discomfort isn't with the truth of my words; it's with the realization that your worldview might be the actual house of cards.

No you wouldn't, because your laundromat wouldn't be consuming MW-GW ranges of power.

Then why is the first question fishing for info about what proof of stake validators are present? Why would they need to know the ages of the equipment?

This is very obviously not about what they claim it is about.

Filling out any form for the federal government is actually a big deal, because you incur huge legal liability by being wrong (criminal, if they decide you were lying). Submitting regulatory documents goes through a lot of legal review for a reason, you can't just "spitball" the numbers.

Baloney. Any government form I've filled out gives that vibe, sure. And then when you're wrong, you don't get a fucking prison sentence, you get a phone call where someone explains why they think you're wrong and asks you to take a stab at it.

Also, every form from the Government I've ever filled out that is binding in terms of accuracy goes out of it's way, where you sign (which this one, to my looking, I don't even see where you sign!) to say that "you certify that this information is accurate and correct to the best of your knowledge which like, the deniability there is a mile fucking wide.

I, personally, as a citizen of both the United States and the larger world would very much like to know how much energy is being pissed away on crypto nonsense. I don't care if that's hard for you, if you can't be arsed to fill out a form, then shut down your stupid mining rigs.

Edit: For an example of this: I straight up forgot to include a large gift from a family member in my taxes one year. I never once saw a cop, was threatened, or anything else: I got two letters, one from the IRS, and one from the state, detailing that they found I had forgotten it during an audit, and I owed them.... IIRC it was a G and a half, thereabouts. If I disagreed and wanted to question their findings, I had to reply with the requisite documentation and a signed statement explaining why I felt what I did. If not, I could accept the judgement, and they included the paperwork to setup a payment plan if I couldn't afford it right away.

This "big government so scary" shit just is not reality. Every government institution I've dealt with (apart from the police, of course) approaches everyone in good faith, arguably even when they shouldn't. The ONLY way you can really get the G-men on your ass is if you're purposely going out of your way and doing fraudulent or illegal shit. Like the IRS doesn't even give a damn if you sell drugs, they just demand Uncle Sam gets his cut.

sure just as long as you shut down your dumb video games and movie distribution network.

>I, personally, as a citizen of both the United States and the larger world would very much like to know how much energy is being pissed away on crypto nonsense.

I would like to know that too, but I also want my government to adhere to the laws which govern how it can generate paperwork and force me to incur compliance costs.

So let's have both, huh?

The "compliance cost" here being a 2 page form that takes a half an hour? Where do you want the check sent?

I want the rule of law, not a check - what exactly are you looking for?

The IRS used to be absolutely brutal in their enforcement efforts. Umm, full stop.

Do you have any documented examples of this behavior?

Bullshit. I've been audited 3 times because of my inexperience with running a business. Every single time it was a professionally worded letter that told me exactly what I needed to do to fix it, and when I followed directions, the problem went away.

That's much more so when you're actively not willing to fulfill your obligations.

With divorce, mental health issues, I didn't file taxes for four years. When I contacted them to figure out things (including having to get W-2s pulled, etc., etc.) they were the most polite, cordial, willing to work out all the details, etc., and I expect a notable chunk of that is due to trying to solve the situation rather than being adversarial.

There are many instances of "please provide your best estimate" on the forms, which provides a lot of reasonable doubt for any attempt to prosecute fraud.

Besides, the rest of the data required on the forms is almost certainly readily available on monthly invoices from energy providers and suppliers (for the bulk of each Schedule 2's fields), an Excel inventory of their mining units, and a Grafana dashboard showing hash rate and load. These are the bare minimum data they'd have readily available just to ensure profitability in the first place.

It doesn't have a field to specify which cryptocurrency you are mining. Which makes the "hash rate" field almost meaningless. This form won't even collect good data.

Trust me, if that form came into the place where I work, 40 hours would be the tip of the iceberg. No novel regulatory request would get a response without compliance and legal review and interpretation.

In any case, this isn't a decision on the merits. It's just saying that the plaintiff has a reasonable chance of succeeding at trial; the "irreparable harm" occurs when the government forces you to incur unrecoverable compliance costs for something that isn't legally required - that's just the law.

The government could've avoided this by going through the actual hoops necessitated by the Paperwork Reduction Act, notice and comment etc. rather than creating the requirement as an "emergency".

It's also a terrible form. It boils down to just 2 important questions:

* Mining Electric Load: (in MW)

* Mining Hash Rate: (in TH/s)

But it doesn't have a place to specify which cryptocurrency is being mined. Each have a very different hash rate on the same hardware. So this "emergency" data will be useless even if they do collect it.

This is also the fundamental unit of business performance that everyone would hate to leak. I'm sure it'll be in great hands with USG regulators!

Is there something exceptional about paying market price for a commodity?

Is there something exceptional about a major industry being asked to be transparent about its energy usage?

Fair enough, but why isn’t every business/industry subject to this?

Maybe all data centers, farmers, etc should have to provide detailed reporting on the energy they use.

https://eta.lbl.gov/publications/united-states-data-center-e... ( 3.5 MB pdf for the full report https://eta-publications.lbl.gov/sites/default/files/lbnl-10... )

https://www.energy.gov/eere/buildings/data-centers-and-serve...

https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-google-microsoft-green-cl...

They do / have.

I imagine in general the data is already provided by the power company. The issue here is overlap between general data center power usage or residential power usage and crypto mining power usage, which isn’t as easy for the power company to discern.

Farmers should be subject to monitoring on disproportionate use of vital resources. Such as alfalfa farms that are a backdoor to export US groundwater to China.

Groundwater is regulated at the state level, correct?

I believe so. I was speaking generally.

Usually the government conducts periodic surveys to analyze energy usage across major industries, eg [0], [1], [2], etc. What's so exceptional about this industry? I would think a survey would be very straightforward. The only input is energy!

[0] https://www.eia.gov/consumption/manufacturing/

[1] https://www.bls.gov/cex/cecomparison/recs_profile.htm

[2] https://www.nass.usda.gov/Surveys/Guide_to_NASS_Surveys/Ag_R...

> What's so exceptional about this industry?

Perhaps that a large portion of the population considers the market a grift?

Perhaps that a large portion of the population has anxiety about climate change?

I don't want people burning (huge amounts of) energy for nothing, but that's just me.

ok - why is the US Fed following the PRC and building a "one owner" Federal Crypto Currency then ?

> What's so exceptional about this industry?

They move more often than most in search of cheap power is likely the reason.

A simple power law formula tax solves the problem. Of course, it eliminates opportunity for corruption, so government leaders do not want it.

It's bad when you can read a headline like this and guess where the judge is.

It's disappointing when instead of reading the supporting documentation that we collectively jump into politics so quickly.

So the impact is likely higher than the 2.3% estimated.

What exactly does monitoring energy use mean? Does this apply to people mining at their house?

I think anyone mining crypto currency would carefully track their expenses including their electricity consumption.

So reporting that would be a few lines of scripting, not irreparable harm.

I love screwing environmentalists as much as any muscle car fan, but the headline implies that shenanigans are happening.

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