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Comment by jameskraus | Hacker News Reader

Wow, the Albert Einstein College of Medicine is about to immediately be the most competitive medical school in the US. I wonder how this will affect the number of doctors graduating from the school and how many will go on to practice in NYC / the Bronx.

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When UC Irvine launched its law school, they made tuition free for the first graduating class (and perhaps gave discounts to the next couple years — I can't remember). They are now ranked #35 in the USNWR, which is pretty good for a school that's about a dozen years old.

My guess is that having free tuition for all students forever will have a much bigger impact. I believe Princeton's policy school is similarly endowed, [1] and it's basically the top choice for anyone getting an MPP. Of course, it also has the prestige of Princeton associated with it; I could imagine some student choosing Harvard over this school, which doesn't currently have the same name recognition/prestige. But surely that will grow as a result of this announcement!

1: https://spia.princeton.edu/blogs/we-fully-fund-all-students-...

Irvine did that as an enticement to attract students for the first years, because the school couldn’t be accredited until the first class graduated. So the folks who enrolled for the first three years were taking a risk.

True, though with the faculty they lined up (including Dean Erwin Chemerinsky), there wasn't much risk of it not being accredited.

A degree from an unaccredited college/university is not as worthless as you might think; in fact, if the education is at least middling, it can be quite a steal.

Hard to find them, however, that aren't just scams.

In CA, you don't even need to attend an accredited law school to become a lawyer! There are some additional hoops you have to jump through, but at the end you can take the bar just like anyone else. However, if you wish to ever practice outside of CA, there is zero reciprocity (except DC) so you are treated as if you never went to law school.

And WI lets you practice law with only a degree (diploma privilege) so I think (somehow) there must be a way to go to school in WI and be a lawyer in WI and CA .... ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_privilege

So you’re saying that Mike would have been just fine had Suits been based in CA?

He definitely would have had a path to apprentice, pass the bar, and then practice law. Lying about being an HLS grad would have presented some challenges for his character-and-fitness assessment by the bar, if he had tried to go that route first.

You don't have to attend an _accredited_ law school, but it looks like there is no escaping studying in a formal capacity for 3-4 years:

https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Requirements/Education

Sure, but studying under a lawyer or judge would look very different from law school. I have wondered if a prestigious lawyer would ever open up a few slots of paid apprenticeships, a la Thiel Fellowships. I don't know what the rules are regarding paying apprentices, but anything beats $60k/year in loans! If you can get some bright students who want to learn, they could probably work 10 hr/wk in the first year, 20 hrs/wk in the second year, and 30 hrs/wk in the last two years, while being more than prepared for the bar exam (especially since it has been 2x made easier in recent years).

To be clear, very few people become licensed lawyers in CA taking this path. The vast majority can't pass the Bar and the state often goes years without a single person passing via the apprenticeship track.

Oh sure, I was referring primarily to people who attend non-accredited law schools. There are several law schools that are not ABA-accredited but that are CA-accredited. There are a few more that are not accredited by either. The apprenticeship track is probably less popular than either of these routes, although recently it's been made famous by Kim Kardashian.

Some states do have a way to become barred without starting from zero if you are barred in CA. For example in WA you still have to take a test, but it isn't a full three-day bar exam.

Oh cool — do you know where to find info on which states offer this?

Yes, it ended up being a pretty good deal for the first students! They recruited some great people from all over (including a couple of my friends, which explains my unlikely knowledge of any of this…).

A new medical school in coastal California was bound to attract talent, in staff and students.

There are plenty of lower-ranked schools in CA, including several unaccredited ones. UC Irvine SoL leapfrogged all of them, partly because UC tuition is lower than privates. But being located in SoCal isn't a guaranteed of top talent — just ask University of San Diego SoL (#78) or Southwestern SoL (#141).

It’s common for new colleges to offer free tuition.

In order to be accredited, you need to show you can produce a decent class of students. But how do you get the students if you’re not accredited?

Free tuition.

The accreditation can be retroactive, so they might be getting an accredited degree for free.

I don’t know if this was the case at UC Irvine Law School.

If interested, another medical school in NY that offers free tuition is NYU. They write, "1st medical school to offer Full-Tuition Scholarships for all students" [0].

[0]: https://med.nyu.edu/education/md-degree/md-admissions

Interesting! Does anyone know how this affected their application numbers, selectivity, or ranking?

> We award Full-Tuition Scholarships to all current students and future matriculated students, regardless of merit or financial need, that cover the majority of the cost of attendance, provided each student maintains satisfactory academic progress in accordance with NYU Grossman School of Medicine’s Satisfactory Academic Progress Policy

I wonder what it means to cover a "majority" of the cost of attendance. Does this mean they cover tuition, but living expenses (which are not trivial in NYC, but which are less than tuition) are not covered? Or are they just referring to their own fees?

Indeed, they cover full tuition. And with respect to what may not be covered, the page "Cost of Attendance" with the bottom table, "Estimated Tuition, Fees, and Expenses", may help: https://med.nyu.edu/education/md-degree/affordability-financ...

That's probably where she got the idea from....

https://nypost.com/2023/07/21/langones-200m-gift-makes-nyu-m...

Wow, had no idea. Thanks for sharing!

To add on, it was a huge consideration for the applicants that I know of

Nobody likes leaving money on the table so they will start charging additional fees. Not tuition but some other things, obligatory insurance, mandatory auxilary premium fee, whatever, anything that plausibly falls outside of donation agteement.

I just hope they have enough decency to delay it till the donor dies so she doesn't have to witness it.

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