Comment by llsf | Hacker News Reader

Comment by llsf | Hacker News Reader

Car dealership in US are in their own league. Coming from Europe it is difficult to appreciate at first. But when you see headlines like: "Roma was purchased last month by Texas car dealership magnate Dan Friedkin, who is worth $4.1 billion."

Yes, that a Texan car dealership buying the AS Roma (soccer team, Italian capital).

When I came in US, I had no car, I saved money, went to dealership (Toyota) and pointed a used Matrix, test drive it, and said, I will buy it. The guy started to show me a long form (like 3 letter pages long form)... I said I do not want to make a loan. He looked at me like I came from another planet. I want to buy the car. He said that he can only accept a bank check. It was close to noon on Saturday, I asked if he could drive me with the Matrix to the nearest bank quickly, he reluctantly said yes. Maybe he thought I was going to scam him or something. He did stay in the car, while I asked for a bank check. He drove me back to the dealership. Unfortunately I had to leave the car, so they do a final inspection and prepare some papers. I came a week later to pick up the car.

Clearly the sales guy seemed a bit puzzled by the transaction. But there was no way I was going to drag a car purchase process like describe in https://github.com/kutinden/buyingacar/blob/main/README.md (13 steps !?)

Now I see the why Tesla sells online. US dealerships have been fat cats for too long.

The UK is heading this way too, and I hate it.

If you show up with cash to buy a car, you're looked at like you're crazy. They push, and push to get you to take out a loan.

It no longer puts you in a better negotiating position to be a cash buyer, as they're making more money selling you finance than selling the car.

For all of Tesla's failings, car dealerships will die out. Millennials and Gen Z _hate_ being sold to and will do anything they can to remove salespeople from the process; even if it means paying more in the end.

Can't speak other than personally, but my step son falls into this category and doesn't hate being sold to. He and his partner have both bought a number of cars from dealerships. And he's not got that from me or his mum, we're both quite the opposite.

Maybe a cultural thing? Are you British? I don't know anyone under 40 who enjoys the process of going to a car dealership and doing the awkward dance of trying not to get ripped off.

Hey, if he doesn't hate it, and gets a good deal then good for him. I just can't believe that his feeling is commonplace.

Not every sales person is trying to rip you off so. That's not what sales is, despite some actually doing it. Most sales people so, are just doing their job in acquiring customers for their business.

Edit: Cars need service and maintenance. Dealerships can, and in Europe do with the exception of used car dealerships, provide these services as well. And that is something Tesla is really bad at.

Teslas (like all EVs) need a lot less service than the average ICE, and when you do need it, you can order Tesla's mobile service to come to your house and complete most servicing right then and there.

Most Tesla service horror stories I've heard about involve major accidents requiring repairs with long waits/high prices for parts, but you get a loaner to tide you over and any decent insurance handles the bill.

Every car needs service, repairs, part replacement. Everything physical cannot be done OTA. And Tesla sucks at that, no question about that.

And if memory serves well, the Tesla practice of providong loaner vehicles spread to almost every other garage and brand, already 30 years ago.

Well, if you live in the US, then this is true. In Europe or somewhere else, I'm not so sure.

Ok, "ripped off" might be an unfair description.

They are using manipulative techniques to extract as much profit from dealing with me as possible.

I understand that it's their job. But as a consumer, I _hate_ it and therefore would consider spending more money to avoid the uncomfortable feeling dealing with a car dealership gives me.

That's the value for me and I'm certainly not alone in that.

You are aware, that if someone manages to get you pay more by not having to deal with a sales person, it is them who are rippong ypu off? Quite literally at that.

I understand your point but I disagree.

They're providing me with, in my eyes, a premium product. "Come buy a car without the dance. Here's the price. Give us money, I'll give you a car. No strings."

I'll pay extra for that. I'll never win against an experienced salesperson, so why bother even trying?

Opinions differ. But then paying a premium means paying a higher price than just accepting whatever a sales person asks for initially... To me, that is kind of stupid. But the I never got the German obsession with panel gaps neither, so make of that whatever you will.

> ...who enjoys the process of going to a car dealership and doing the awkward dance of trying not to get ripped off.

This. The point is, once you are old enough and have heared enough success-stories of extroverts going full "Grand Bazaar"-Style... you are just frustrated if you know that you are going to loose against all these dark-patterns. There´s a reason why they can buy italian soccer-teams without really "producing" anything.

I´ll gladly throw my money on anyone who is going to take these dealerships out of the algorithm. I know that just someone else will get rich... but hey, Tesla might at least use this money e.g. for product-development etc..

Clean, sensible, introverted living is overrated.

There's something deeply human in the whole 'awkward dance'. Not everyone is born a great dancer, but this doesn't mean that dancing is a stupid and pointless activity.

People have been trading with one another (and often tricking or getting tricked in the process) for millennia. The 'Grand Bazaar' you evoke stands for something timeless — a promise of wealth earned with wit. In a twisted way, our American love for capitalism and these sleazy dealerships are chasing the same ancient dream.

May as well be a part of it.

> tricking or getting tricked in the process

I live in a world where I do not have to trick or be tricked by other people. I surround myself with people whom I can actually trust to have my interests at heart, and I try to look out for their interests as well. This is not just the case for my friends, but has been in my communities, across multiple countries. I can happily go to the market and buy whatever at a listed price, confident that the market stall owner is pricing it at enough to make a comfortable living and no more. I can be confident that if my purchase is flawed, I can say, and be trusted with a refund easily.

This, to me, is a deeply human system. The idea that deceit and cheating are features of life just doesn't bear out for me. There are people that do that, and when I encounter them, I do whatever I can to make sure I never encounter them again. Unfortunately, the consolidation of large businesses makes it more and more common. I avoid those where I can also.

But dancing is fun. The act of dancing evokes joy, and happiness for people.

For most people, buying a car is a chore. I'm not here to be negotiated with. Give me the price of something that means you make your profit; if it seems like a good deal, I'll buy it.

you completely missed the point. theres many cultures throughout the world that enjoy haggling. In fact the west the weird one in that regard

I don't like dancing and for some reason society keeps forcing me into that.

> Maybe a cultural thing? Are you British

Yes British but love going to car dealerships and haggling. I miss the old days as buying cars is now straightforward over the internet.

Dealership and sales people or not, you are still being sold to, aren't you? But yes, if you can extract more money from your customers by removing sales people, and the option to negiotiate, from the process more companies will do that.

Anecdotally I've heard of people getting discounts from the dealer by buying on finance, then asserting the right to cancel within 14 days* and paying cash instead. AIUI the dealer doesn't have to accept the cash, and could take the car back, but then they lose the sale, so they generally just suck it up.

(* https://www.carmoola.co.uk/blog/cooling-off-period-car-finan...)

That wouldn't fly in the US, at least not with actual cash, i.e., bills. Notes are legal tender and can't be refused if you're paying off a debt with them. And I don't think early loan payoffs are legal anymore, so you could take out a loan one day and then just pay it off completely the next.

> The UK is heading this way too, and I hate it. > If you show up with cash to buy a car, you're looked at like you're crazy. They > push, and push to get you to take out a loan.

With used car dealers in Germany it's a common thing to pay in cash. At least the down payment is usually in cash. However, having payed for my used car in cash, it still makes me nervous thinking of me taking a bus to the dealership with €11k in my backpack. And prior I had to tell my Bank in advance to order enough cash for me on that day. Even if I had used my debit card, I would have needed to tell my Bank to increase the withdrawing limit.

And I think with latest EU regulations cash transactions are limited to 10k nowadays. So all in all I think it is becoming more and more inconvenient paying in cash these days even in a cash driven country like Germany. Unless either customer to dealership bank transactions become a thing, or checks return in digital form or Bitcoin's taking off I would not even know how to pay for my next car in the future. Perhaps I should get myself a Tesla and a pile of debt after all. ;)

you can just use your debit card, the only thing you need to do is raise your limit in advance. no need to carry that much cash around.

I wasn't specific enough, sorry. By "cash" I meant "not finance". It's very unusual to turn up to a car dealership in the UK with a suitcase full of £20 notes (and would probably ring alarm bells for money laundering).

Usually dealerships insist on a bank transfer. Although, pro tip, if you can agree to paying a deposit with a credit card then the entire car purchase should be covered under Section 75 protection if the car is not sold as advertised.

I have just used a bank transfer in Germany, it has always worked.

> Unfortunately I had to leave the car, so they do a final inspection and prepare some papers. I came a week later to pick up the car.

I wonder how he would have felt if you had to take the car and keep the money for a week before you could pay.

The thing tho, is that the car dealership aint going anywhere, while the customer (if a fraudster) could just up and disappear with the car with the dealership having no way to track it back down.

I did that when I purchased my used Toyota a few years ago. I told the dealer to hold the car until I could get a bank check issued by my credit union (no physical branches in my state so I had to call during business hours) and he said I could drive off that day. I was surprised but he just printed a temporary registration and a week later I drove by to finalize the paperwork after the check arrived.

It was a small dealership started by some ex-Microsoft guys and I was working at Microsoft at the time which might have had something to do with it, but it wasn’t like they verified my employment or anything. I assume they felt safe doing that considering the alternative would have been a career ending grand theft auto charge.

Good salespeople excel at character judgement. They were confident that you are not the type that steals cars. But like the author says, by doing the entire transaction over email instead of in-person, you take a big part of their advantage away.

This is exactly what Carvana does when you want to return something to them

You can politely say no to everything they push on you, who cares about how their face looks like. I bought my car last year and while it involved a long wait (I went there in a busy day), once it was my turn it was basically a 30 minute process to buy the car without a loan.

Thank God my cantankerous old uncle was the one who taught me how to buy a car and get the OTD price and then the best price, and not my parents. Basically, he taught me to just say 'no' to almost everything, and get up and walk out if they're jerking you around. My parents are wonderful people, but they're just too polite to do something like that, and too trusting of authority figures (car salespeople like to project that they are the ones that are experts at all things involving automobiles).

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