Best Rain Jackets in the World Will Soon Be Illegal | Hacker News Reader

Best Rain Jackets in the World Will Soon Be Illegal

outsideonline.com

49 pointsthe-mitr28 comments

This line, buried deep in the article, is what completely boggles my mind:

> We tell customers to wash their outerwear, regardless of whether it has PFAS or not, after every three to five significant uses and to re-waterproof every three to five washes.

Their outerwear? So we're not talking about inner layers here. All of them? Every three to five uses?? I have jackets and coats that are decades old, in active (seasonal) use for the whole time, that I have never washed. Is this unusual? How would you even wash them? For some of them, it seems like just throwing them in a washing machine would damage the surface layers, make the lining lumpy, shrink them, or do some other problematic thing to them.

Wash gore tex with a specific product like nikwax tech wash, or just use pure soap flakes.

I wash mine around once a snow season. Or sooner if I’ve gone on a really dirty summer hike. If the pores of the fabric get clogged with dirt it doesn’t repel water as well.

Wash the jacket, then give it a gentle tumble dry. This warms and reflows the DWR coating. If it isn’t beading and shedding water after this, consider re-applying a DWR. I like nikwax, I find it effective and it’s less horrible than the aerosol ones.

Reminds me of the washing recommendations for the Kevlar trousers of wood workers. Like, 3-5 washes and the fibers are shot, better to stink of pine sap, then to pain on mine sap.

The Kevlar in chainsaw chaps and motorcycle clothing is rapidly damaged by fabric softener. Wash them only with pure soap and they’ll last just fine.

>Is this unusual? Do you ever go to a restaurant? Or eat while wearing your jacket?

They aren’t the best in the first place. Goretex, most famous brand, isn’t that great at all. It will loose its water repellent power very quick. The membrane will die within 2-6 years. You will have to reapply PFA constantly. On the other side wax is used since decades and it works and you can just reapply it by rubbing it into the cloth and ironing.

Might be true for jackets, but my anecdata hiking with friends in the Scandinavian mountains where it rains constantly and there are lots of rivers to ford is that wax is not good enough for boots. Time and time again the waxers hit leaks in my groups, and the GoreTexers stay bone dry.

GoreTex of course isn’t a perfect material for boots. I think the main downside I see with the GoreTex is that it’s stiffer, harder to break in, and subsequently produces more blisters. That is fine for me though. I can control how many blister pads I apply and when, and ultimately whether the blister comes. I can’t control water ingress when fording a stream.

For jackets, rather than invest in super pricey thousand dollar jackets, I usually bring two sets of Frogg Toggs and don’t expect them to survive the trek.

It feels like the pick two for jackets is “cheap”, “light”, and “durable”. Maybe add “breathable” in there as well. Frogg Toggs definitely checks all the boxes except for durable, they will disintegrate if you simply fart the wrong ways. For an intermediate adventurer like myself who only treks once or twice a year for not longer than 10 days at a time that is totally fine

Yes wax has its downsides, too. You have to constantly reapply it because it will just wear off. Leather boots won't soak up the wax, it is just on the surface and the more you go and use it, the more you have to reapply it. This is why I prefer leather grease for shoes. It will keep the leather smooth and water repellant, and this will be as good as Goretex. The only downside: When they are wet, they will stay wet for days. Goretex shoes dry within a night. So if I would hike for days and I expect constant rain or muddy terrain I would prefer membrane shoes, too.

> The membrane will die within 2-6 years.

I still wear a goretex rain jacket and rain pants from the 90s, they work terrific. The membranes are fine.

> You will have to reapply PFA constantly.

Since pfa has been banned for non-commercial use (I think?) I currently use nikwax, which is a fluoride-free water repellant.

> On the other side wax is used since decades and it works and you can just reapply it by rubbing it into the cloth and ironing.

Wax is not breathable and will make you drown in your own sweat after a few hours of spending time in it.

> I currently use nikwax. Yes, Nikwax is much better for the environment, it is some kind of mineral wax, right? > Wax is not breathable and will make you drown in your own sweat after a few hours of spending time in it. Thats the thing, a membrane is just breathable under the right conditions. In heavy rain the membranes will be covered with water and can't breathe. If it is warmer outside of the jacket than inside of it, it won't breathe at all. And even if conditions are perfect, the breathability of membranes are just a marketing gag because hot wet air needs a lot of pressure to get outside of your jacket / boots / with membrane. There are tests about it all over youtube that debunk the breathability of membranes like Goretex. > I still wear a goretex rain jacket and rain pants from the 90s, they work terrific. The membranes are still fine. I don't know about your jacket but stuff was made more sturdy back in the 90s. I'm just relying on my experience and stuff I've read by others. It depends on how often you use your stuff.

Here's a fun video analyzing the effectiveness of Goretex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGEzJJYiROk

My jacket is coming up on 13 years old now. Every one of those it’s been worn 2-4 weeks on snow, plus year round on rainy Sydney hikes, dog walks and kids soccer games. It’s just fine.

Having recently discarded one that was gifted a few years ago, I can say that the "best" rain jackets are essentially Formula 1 supercars. They have low lifespans by design; even if you are careful with reapplying the magic reconditioning formula, you will still sweat on it. Eventually the tape covering the interior seams will get wet. Then moisture gets trapped under the tape, and at that point it's just a moldy windshell.

In contrast a simple leather jacket or rain poncho is fine for everyday "it's a little rainy" or "it's really rainy" scenarios. If you are using the ultralights effectively, it's probably in a sportive context where you are going to use it just for that sport, for a few seasons.

You should try a cotton gabardine jacket. I have a more classic version trench coat/rain coat, waterproof, ridiculously breathable. I'm sure we could have some kind of style suited for most of the uses people put shells to: hiking, camping. No worrying if my membrane is getting clogged or anything...

Sometimes I wonder if we've reinvented the wheel too many times...

Interesting. Guess it’s good if it will help reduce “forever chemicals” in the long run.

I’ve never found a rain jacket that holds up to extended downpours other than the “rubbery” type materials. Spend a fair amount of time doing yard work etc with cheap no-name rubbery pant and jacket in extended rain without being soaked through.

Not sure what the chemical composition of these entail though.

The article mentions using waxes as an alternative and historically think people wax/oil leather to be water-repellant. It probably works well but is heavy etc

You’re probably soaked in sweat. Rubber doesn’t breathe, yard work is hard.

Fwiw, for being outside in extended downpours, the best rain coverings are short ponchos and rain skirts. You stay dry but there's plenty of ventilation so you never get sweaty. I make them out of garbage bags. Only costs a few pennies, and is the most packable covering. Can even make gaiters. It'll never catch on because it's not fashionable, but that's fine with me.

You may be interested to know that you are actually quite fashionable, as haute couture has recently discovered the garbage bag look:

https://www.balenciaga.com/en-us/trash-bag-large-pouch--whit...

Most of the waterproofing in jackets comes from ePTFE, which while fluorine is in it, is not dangerous at all. There are other PFCs that go into Goretex that are of concern, but to my understanding all were eliminated in the production of goretex in 2023. To my understanding there’s no remaining reason to worry about ePTFE based jackets made from Goretex either in its use, degradation over time, or its production.

Isn’t Glide dental floss made with Gore-Tex? I wonder if I should be concerned about using it.

No, it’s made out of PTFE which is what ePTFE is made out of. But Goretex has other layers. PTFE is absurdly safe and one of the more non reactive substances. It’s also got the lowest known coefficient of friction with most things. It’s also called Teflon, which has a bad reputation because of how it was made 30 years ago, which involved PFAs. But its process for production has been different for 15 or more years, and no longer uses PFAs by law. But a bad reputation once earned is hard to shake.

Thanks for the info!

Electrospun polyurethane is the future of waterproof, breathable jackets and GoreTex is a marketing thing.

They’re going to have to find a substitute.

People will just keep finding a way around the ban if there is no viable alternative

This has been a repeated headline for a while, but it's still clickbait IMO. The jackets will not 'be illegal'. Rather so-called forever chemicals are being regulated. The article it links to to cite 'illegal' says that analysts think that policy makers are considering new policy..

> Safer States’ 2024 analysis of anticipated state legislation addressing toxic chemicals and plastics across the country, suggests that PFAS “forever chemicals” could be banned in more uses than ever in 2024 state bills. Overall, at least 36 states will consider more than 450 bills on toxic chemical and plastics related policies. The analysis further finds that banning “forever chemicals” will continue to dominate in 2024, with at least 35 states introducing policies. Other significant legislation anticipated for 2024 will address toxic plastics, safe drinking water, and hazardous chemicals in cosmetics and personal care products.

Overall I wouldn't be surprised if Goretex and co PR teams aren't deliberately writing and spreading articles like these - it probably leads to a big jump in sales each time one goes around.

I believe in human ingenuity. We got this far, I'm confident we can find suitable substitutes for a safer future.

When you realise all the good stuff comes from petroleum you realize we're very far from any kind of sustainable /suitable/economically viable replacements. Probably close to 90% of what you see and touch in your day to day life is a petroleum derivate

And a great and economical way to remove all that shit from the environment?

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