Who Wants To Buy Honduras? | Hacker News Reader

Who Wants To Buy Honduras?

nytimes.com

143 pointsgruseom96 comments

> He eventually realized something that seems obvious to any nonacademic, that poor countries are saddled with laws and, crucially, customs that prevent new ideas from taking shape. [...] The United Arab Emirates, Hong Kong and Singapore were able to build well-designed cities that housed and employed millions, in part by persuading foreigners to invest heavily.

It’s really obnoxious that the author allows this facile analysis to pass without any attempt to provide context. Hong Kong and Singapore were Western colonial corporate/financial/trade centers for a giant continent which was otherwise mostly blocked off, and so were bottlenecks through which massive amounts of capital flowed (and goods: HK, Singapore, and Shanghai are the busiest ports in Asia). The UAE is a tiny country with one of the largest oil reserves in the world.

The claim that the main problem poor countries have is “customs that prevent new ideas”, as compared to – at least in the case of Honduras – 500 years of quite shocking exploitation and violence (diving into Honduran history books is not for the faint of heart), and for most the last 100 years political control by US-backed strongmen and American fruit companies and frequently the US military, as the original “banana republic”, is offensive. [He did mention that Dole/Chiquita “have controlled its agricultural exports”, but left it at that.] Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Honduras#Honduras_in...

Disclaimer: I grew up in southern Mexico, and a couple years ago took a course on Mesoamerican colonial history from the former Honduran Minister of Culture, who fled to the US after the 2009 coup.

Is it possible that both things are true? That the current conditions in Honduras are the result of a legacy of imperialist and corporatist exploitation, and that part of that legacy is a system of laws and customs that retards economic development and condemns many of its people to a life lived in shacks or subsistence farms?

Your whole comment can be right on the money (I'm inclined to think it is) without saying anything about Romer's belief that the best vector to improve Honduras is "special economic zones" with different laws.

(We had to read Eduardo Galeano's last Memory of Fire book in high school; probably the most memorable and durably changing experiences I've had with any book. I'm guessing you're being charitable about how bad Honduran history has been for Hondurans.)

I think the omnipresent external force has been much more important in determining outcomes than local culture (but of course these are complex systems which can’t cleanly be broken into parts – “culture”, “law”, “economy”, “government”, “power structure” are all linked together).

I do agree though that it’s necessary to have some combination of land reform, capital accumulation and investment (and perhaps local reinvestment of export profits?), education, industrial development, and strengthening of civic and political institutions to build a successful functioning society. These are hard problems for poor countries, and the last 60 years of academic political science have pretty convincingly failed to turn up any easy explanations or solutions. I wouldn’t hold my breath that building a foreign “special economic” enclave unaccountable to the rest of the country will ultimately save Honduran peasants. But that’s not the part of the article I’m offended by.

> I think the omnipresent external force has been much more important in determining outcomes than local culture

Maybe, but you seem to assume that the impact of an omnipresent external force is always negative.

The more I read about history, the more it begins to appear to me that today's economic boom in Asia is in no small part due to the British imperial system a century ago which first set things in motion.

I wonder if Romer's systems can be used to stave off the encroachment of the cartels and continued growth of MS-13 (and the speculated alliances between them). As healthy as it seems to unwind the western corporations binds on the country and come to terms with centuries of exploitation, it could be even more important to suggest that radical developments like this are necessary in a race against the expulsion of the cartels from Mexico (where are they going to go but south?) and thus, time.

2009 was hardly what I would call a coup, only people not familiar with Honduras politics would call it that. The president was trying to rig the election so they made sure to get him out so they could resume legitimate elections and not have a puppet government in control by Hugo Chavez

They deserve a lot of praise for defending their constitution without violence. The interim president stepped down when he said he would and did not run for the office. Elections went off without problems. It should serve as an example for the rest of the world.

You can't imagine all the pressure the country had after the coup, almost every embassy and organization got out of the country, we stopped receiving aid, all the development programs were paralyzed, all the funds for help were cut off. The interim had to step down.

I am afraid to tell you that in Honduras the constitution and the law are violated everyday, impunity is so commun here, so that argument "defending the constitution" that the people who were in favor of the coup is bullshit.

OK, I'm confused. Are you saying that it would have been better for Honduras to allow Zelaya to install himself as a dictator for life, Chavez style?

Chavez is there because he got elected with the majority of votes, he also have the support from congress and the military. Mel wasnt that popular, so he was not a real threat. The coup was very hurtful for the country.

It really should. Too bad the President and the State Department didn't agree and refused to recognize the new government as legitimate. I wonder if Obama still holds that opinion.

I am from Honduras, it was clearly a coup, even the current president accepted it

Is funny that he mentions the Madagascar coup.

That was a strange mess.

The President who was looking at charter cities there had just sold half of Madagascar as farmland to China.

This annoyed a lot of people and in the ensuing kerfuffle, apparently supported by the French and some bits of the UN, the former radio DJ Andry Rajoelina was put in charge of the country, with his first action being to throw out the agreement with China.

When Singapore became independent, GDP per capita was $500.

This is standard 20th century history. It's also the standard Communist line (Galeano, Zinn, etc). Its only correspondence with reality is the statement that everything wrong with Latin America is the US's fault. While this is true, everything else is a lie.

The truth about Latin America is that it's suffering from 200 years of revolutionary ideology exported from El Norte. All its functional institutions date to Spanish rule (which is why "colonial" is applied indiscriminately to anything that isn't ugly in Mexico). Things started to suck in the 19th century when revolutionary Enlightenment ideology, all of Anglo-American origin, destroyed first colonial, then clerical and aristocratic rule, in the process producing approximately a zillion very very nasty civil wars.

And of course comparing 19th-century revolutionary ideology to its 20th-century successor is like comparing strychnine to cyanide. Where did all these ideologies come from? Dude, do you really have to ask? Ergo "pobre Mexico, tan lejos de Dios, tan cerca a los Estados Unidos."

For instance, it's grimly hilarious that today, with Mexico the world capital of decapitation, anyone could conceivably praise the Mexican Revolution. If Woodrow Wilson and Americans like him hadn't been so intent on "teaching Mexico to elect good men," the Porfiriato could easily have lasted another century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porfirio_D%C3%ADaz

Instead, thanks to John Reed and his ilk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Reed_(journalist)

You wind up with this dude:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teodoro_Garc%C3%ADa_Simental

whom I'm pretty sure neither the Porfiriato nor New Spain would have wasted much time in hanging. Etc, etc, etc.

took a course on Mesoamerican colonial history from the former Honduran Minister of Culture, who fled to the US after the 2009 coup.

And no doubt wishes the State Department would repeat its usual trick of deposing all Latin American governments which aren't headed by Harvard professors, or completely Americanized natives acceptable to such. Strangely, this position is commonly referred to as "anti-Americanism" - possibly for the same reason tall men are called "Tiny."

Needless to say, the golpistas in Honduras are a hell of a lot more Honduran than anyone who has ever taught a course at Harvard (or wherever). If you prefer them to the Harvard professors, you're an imperialist. Hell of a world we live in, ain't it?

Disclaimer: my father was a US vice-consul in the Dominican Republic. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

At the turn of the 20th century, Argentinans enjoyed living standards fully 90% of contemporary Western Europeans[1]. Today, that is just 37%. In fact, 6 of the world's 30 richest countries were in Latin America in 1900. Today, Latin America's richest country ranks #55 in GDP per capita.

[1] http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php/thebearslairview?art_id...

What is plaguing Latin America is NOT the legacy of colonialism, but the legacy of revolutionary left-wing leaders and the bad economic ideas of the left.

Naimi Klein's The Shock Doctrine attempts to explain the dismantling of the South American states by disaster capitalism, of extreme "austerity" and brutal military rule, neither of which sounds very "left-wing" if you ask me.

When you push something hard in one direction, naturally it will bounce back in the other. You go from extreme right-wing to extreme left-wing as a reaction. Neither policy is ultimately productive.

Argentina's default in 2003 was caused by the right and the IMF policies, Nestor Kishner a left-wing leader saved Argentina from that crisis.

That's a good one... maybe you don't remember what the "left-wing leader" did in the '70s, or '90s, or what happened up until 2003. Or maybe you are reading 6,7,8's account of history, very well written in Newspeak.

Its only correspondence with reality is the statement that everything wrong with Latin America is the US's fault. While this is true, everything else is a lie

Was this a...typo or something? Do you actually think that?

His claim seems to be (it’s not especially coherent, so I might be missing something) that the “everything wrong” here is the influence of Enlightenment Anglo/American “revolutionary ideology”, rather than any specific U.S. action.

I must say, both the claim that things were lovely before the 19th century (i.e. massive die-off to disease, followed by centuries of military conquest and destruction, forced labor in mines & plantations, horrifically violent suppression of any resistance, relocation away from desirable land, controlled access to credit and trade, complete political control, constant suppression of cultural and religious practice, racial segregation and discrimination, and so forth), and the claim that “revolutionary ideology” is the primary driver of Latin American history for 200 years (rather than, say, changing relationships between colonial élites and Spain, changes in the world economy, shifting power bases within Latin America as it industrializes, conflicts between élites and governments in neighboring countries, two world wars, quite a bit of technological change, and of course the growing world power of the U.S., &c. &c.) are rather extraordinary, and making a case for either one is going to take a rather more solidly grounded and carefully elaborated argument than was provided.

I'm not defending the Spanish conquest - it would definitely be cool if the Incas and Aztecs had been left alone. Not that the Incas and Aztecs were exactly paragons of respect for human rights, you know. (Or do you know?)

I'm simply observing that the quality of government by the late pre-revolutionary period, ie, the 18th century, is a lot higher than the quality of government in the 19th and 20th centuries - by almost any sane metric.

For instance, it's my belief (maybe not yours) that the main purpose of government is suppression of civil violence. If your government fails at this, nothing it succeeds at much matters. Now, imagine the progress of Mexico over the last two centuries, absent pervasive political and civil violence. Don't forget - the first university in the Americas was founded in Mexico City in 1551, almost 100 years before Harvard.

You appear to have been inculcated with a lot of very complex explanations of the tragedy of post-colonial Latin America, whereas my views, obviously, are quite simple. This is no accident. I'm a big believer in Occam's razor. I don't feel it's necessary to construct any intricate explanations of why the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.

It's not at all unusual for people living in a historical period to misunderstand it completely, generally as a consequence of political corruption. This is as true of the late Roman Empire as of the late Soviet Union. My feeling is that historians of later eras will understand our world much better, and much more simply, than we understand it ourselves.

I'd strongly recommend reading at least one anti-liberal history of this period into which you've put so much study. It'd be a shame to come away with such strong conclusions when you've only heard from the prosecution. Elsewhere on the thread I've recommended Waugh's Robbery Under Law (1939) - not hard to find and very easy to read.

Okay. I don’t claim to know what the proper “purpose” of civil government is, or to have visions of a perfectly just society, but in practice government is a set of systems set up by people living near each-other for mediating disputes, defending the group from common threats, and regulating behavior in a formal way (that is, there is some explicit process involved, unlike with informal norms).

Citizens seem to be generally happier when their basic physiological needs are met, when they feel valued and respected by the community, when they aren’t treated violently for their thoughts and private practices and associations, when they have meaningful work to do, and meaningful goals and aspirations and especially some common purposes with others in the society with whom they can cooperate, when their frustrations and desires are considered & acted upon by their fellow citizens. When they can provide some feedback to the system itself, and thereby improve both it and their own lives and the lives of their neighbors and children.

Now of course, there’s all manner of difficulty with this, because different people have different ideas of what the society should look like and what their roles should be in it, because human societies are very complex games which involve competitive as well as cooperative aspects, and because frequently military, economic, technological, social shocks lead some groups to starvation, disempowerment, etc., in which position they become either depressed or pissed off. Prevention of civil violence is certainly crucial to government (Hobbes’s Leviathan). But that government isn’t working when its information-sharing systems are broken and it fails to respond to citizens’ grievances, to the extent that they are willing to take up arms against it.

Civil wars are horrible and destructive and terrible, and often fail to fix anything, or even make matters worse.

On the other hand, colonial society in places like Honduras (or Chiapas, where I spent half my childhood) was terribly oppressive and violent. It was mostly a kind of constant low-level violence of forced labor, routine rape and torture and murder, political and economic disempowerment through control of every local institution, theft or destruction of any capital accumulation and suppression or subversion of any attempts to form independent institutions. Occasionally dissatisfaction flared up into larger-scale violence, always brutally suppressed.

I don’t know whether this was “higher [...] quality [...] by any sane metric” than the 19th and 20th century governments. I didn’t personally live through it. I do know that nearly the whole history makes me cry to think about.

Thanks for the interesting conversation, jacobolus - but I'm pretty confident that you didn't spend your childhood in colonial society. I think what you mean is that you spent your childhood in a society whose class disparities were vaguely comparable, at least in an ideologically stereotypical way, to colonial society.

(Note that in all Latin American countries, including frickin' Cuba, the governing caste looks like Gael Garcia Bernal and the governed caste is black, brown or both. See under: "Subcomandante Marcos." After the 20th century it should be difficult for any ideology to claim it has some magic solution to this particular problem.)

Without of course disputing the actual reality you've experienced, I would suggest two ways of interpreting this perspective.

One is that the constant low-level violence in these postcolonial societies is not a consequence of how similar to actual colonial societies they are, but how different they are.

You don't see constant low-level violence when formal power is identical to informal power. When the patron is actually an encomendero, there's no reason for forced labor (the distinction between "forced" and "unforced" labor is pretty academic to an unskilled agricultural laborer - either way, he has to work or he doesn't eat) to involve violence, because he has the formal right to command and can call on the lawful arm of the state to assist him.

Whether or not he should have this right, or rather power, is a separate question. But note what happens when you try to eradicate these feudal structures, which of course did not arrive with the Europeans but predate them: you're driving Nature out with a pitchfork. When the patron is just a big man, not an actual government official, his power is not in the form of policemen and soldiers, but thugs and more thugs.

Second, reinforcing this argument, consider the fact that everything you know about the colonial period comes from the enemies of colonialism. Imagine if everything you knew about Jews came from people who hated Jews. Every time a Jew committed some crime or abuse, this would be played up at maximum volume and associated with the entire Jewish race. Exactly how the Goebbels press worked.

In other words, the 20th century image of colonialism is just an extension of the good old Leyenda Negra tradition. I don't have to explain this to you, but for others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend

I agree - the story is very sad. I hope Mexico can find its way to a new Porfiriato sometime soon. The first step would definitely be expelling the US Embassy - and taking every other possible measure to pretend there's nothing but ocean north of the Rio Grande.

Mexico is blessed with energy and food security, so it really does have the physical strength to tell Washington where it can put all its fatherly advice. And we're certainly in no political condition to invade you! So the main thing that's missing is cultural self-confidence.

Perhaps it's not too late to reinvent some kind of Franquista Hispanidad, Falangism, sinarquismo, etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_synarchism

Until that point, I'm quite confident, the beheadings etc. will continue. Political order is something you take for granted until you find you don't have it, and then it's quite difficult to restore without applying a level of force comparable to that at the disposal of the disorderly.

Or to put it differently, after its century of revolution, Mexico needs martial law the way a camel that's just walked across the Sahara needs a drink of water. It's not alone in this. A friend of my wife's recently spent nine months in Guatemala City on a State Department journalism fellowship. She left as impeccable a progressive as you'd ever see. She came back with the most amazing good words for dictators and dictatorship. If you know Guatemala City, you know why...

Erna Fergusson, an American no less progressive, visited Guatemala in the '30s and wrote this book:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Guatemala.html?id=fv5kAA...

She describes Guatemala as "like Mexico before the Revolution." Politically this is certainly the truth. And the capital, for instance, is described as impeccably clean and crime-free. This did not fit the author's agenda, but was just what she saw. Again, compare!

You’re quite right that élites tended (and tend) to be a lot whiter than those they control. I would argue that’s a significant problem for any government. [As a sidenote, Subcomandante Marcos doesn’t govern much of anything.]

The low-level violence I’m talking about has been constant background since the conquest, and more organized rebellion/military action were not uncommon throughout the colonial period. Some remoter corners of the continent took quite a while to conquer, and others were difficult to control.

To claim that colonial systems such as encommienda and repartimiento weren’t persistently violent is absurd: those Indians who tried to flee were killed; those who rebelled were killed; theft and destruction and rape and torture and murder were routine; local religious and cultural practices were suppressed; access to trade and credit were strictly controlled; indian peasants were treated as effectively slaves able to be forced into mining or construction projects or plantation work (with some weak checks and balances between groups of competing elites, particularly those who had been living there for a while vs. those newly arrived from Spain).

Historical analysis is hard work, and we have to read sources carefully, but there are a wide variety available including lots of material from colonial élites themselves (Severo Martínez Peláez’s La patria del criollo is, despite its flaws, quite an insightful deconstruction of one of these), and your suggestion that current scholars have just been naively deceived by “the Goebbels press” is disingenuous and offensive. As a good place to start, I recommend Murdo MacLeod’s book Spanish Central America: A Socioeconomic History, 1520-1720. (Further disclaimer: MacLeod is a family friend.)

Anyway, that’s enough about that for today. A last bit of friendly advice: I recommend you find a bit more empathy for people unlike yourself, tone down the hyperbolic rhetoric, and spend more effort on facts and explanations and less on speculation and judgment. When confronted with an author who flings expansive insults in all directions, I feel bored and alienated: it’s not worth wading through all the noise to look for whatever signal might lie within.

Because there's nothing hyperbolic about "theft and destruction and rape and torture and murder were routine." As we see, this kind of hyperbole is so normative in your social context that it passes entirely unnoticed. To respond to hyperbole with nuanced moderation is entirely inappropriate, misleading and ineffective.

I think you'll find that in all functioning societies everywhere, including the United States today, the weak are ruled by the strong, and rebels are repressed and/or killed. Try setting up your own liberated zone in Montana and see how far you get. When this principle breaks down, the only thing that can follow is chaos.

Historical research is hard work, but hard work isn't always useful work. When the purpose of your hard work is the service of a political agenda, it's just busywork. The perspective of Western academia in 2012 is a valid one, certainly, but also a very narrow one by historiographic standards. It is much more work to step outside this tradition - especially in the narrow area of Latin American studies - but when you do so you may be surprised at what you find.

(I would certainly hope anyone who happened to agree with me would be far above downvoting for content.)

Are you Mencius Moldbug the blogger by any chance?

Yes, he is.

Another great example is this freakazoid, whom I only just discovered in some parlor-Bolshevik writing from the '20s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Flores_Mag%C3%B3n

In the Mexican Revolution you have the divide in America between mainstream and radical liberals (Woodrow Wilson and Eugene Debs) mirrored almost perfectly in Mexican factions (Carranza and Zapata). The only indigenous Mexican forces are, by definition, people like the Cristeros, who have no foreign base of support. Viva Cristo Rey!

Also, the period is a little different, but Walter Millis's The Martial Spirit is an excellent deconstruction of the Spanish-American War, which leaves both the imperialist and humanitarian strains in US interventionism (rather uniquely combined in that war) in hilarious tatters. It's 1931, but archive.org has it:

http://archive.org/details/martialspiritast008110mbp

It's a shame that "revolutionary ideology" managed to produce a government that's been stable (for the most part) for over 200 years, where Latin America has been a revolving door of governments. I wonder where that "revolutionary ideology" went wrong in Latin America. Maybe they didn't send an angry letter to the King of Spain soon enough.

This is the reason why I down-voted you: You made a point-and-sputter non-reply that added noise and no signal.

Mencius Moldbug is not the first person to make those claims. It used to be a staple of conservative Catholic observers of Latin America, whether from the United States or elsewhere. For example, look up the works of William Thomas Walsh or Francis Clement Kelley.

http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Drenched-Altars-Francis-Clement-...

Of course, those regimes which the US government liked were almost always viciously anti-clerical so this may not be much of a surprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Pro

I'm very interested in the relationship between decolonization, liberalism, and the civil wars that raged through Latin America since then. Can you point me toward any good resources that tie those subjects together? I've been considering a country-by-country approach to the subject, but would really appreciate any resources that have a broader or more holistic look at the history of Latin American civil war.

It's very hard to find good English-language secondary sources on the period. Basically the choice is between liberals, who have a big axe to grind, and various Catholic whackjobs, who ditto. A comment above links to some of the latter.

One exception is Evelyn Waugh's Robbery Under Law (1939), which is fabulous, but only pertains to Mexico. I'd link you to it but Eldred and all that. I am also very, very fond of the great Colombian reactionary Nicolas Gomez Davila:

http://don-colacho.blogspot.com/

I actually prefer reading between the lines of liberal sources, but it's not for everyone. If you want to taste the crack straight from the source, try John Reed:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Insurgent_Mexico.html?id...

Don't smoke it all at once...

Was about to say this sounds awfully like Unqualified Reservations until I read the username.

I don't know, what you call "really obnoxious" is, I would say, par for the course in journalism - but not because that's a low standard! The facts are there, and what is missing that you provide is, well, not a low standard.

You're just a stranger to me so this is nothing personal, but I would say your analysis is 'particularly deep' and insightful. In other words, it's not that journalistic standards are low: it's that I think you (jacobolus) are inordinately insightful on this front and probably worth millions (over a few years) if you leverage this in the right international context.

I don't remember if I was being hasty and didn't read your whole comment, or if you added to it, but I only thought your first paragraph was insightful. ("It’s really obnoxious that the author allows this facile analysis to pass without any attempt to provide context. Hong Kong and Singapore were Western colonial corporate/financial/trade centers for a giant continent which was otherwise mostly blocked off, and so were bottlenecks through which massive amounts of capital flowed (and goods: HK, Singapore, and Shanghai are the busiest ports in Asia). The UAE is a tiny country with one of the largest oil reserves in the world.")

We see this same thing in huge development shops. The rules, structure, and culture has become such that it's impossible to get real progress done. In such cases, if we can get firm commitment from management to leave high performing cells alone come what may, we can create small packets of high-performance that can then set an example.

I think this is a great idea.

However, from personal experience I can tell you that the rest of the system will actively seek to kill these pockets -- mostly through well-meaning efforts and concerns. It'll be a tough row to hoe for Honduras.

I'd also note that in environments like this it's typical for everybody to have a story about how they (and they alone) could fix it if only one thing was changed. If their pet cause was addressed. These stories can sound very attractive, and no doubt contain a great deal of truth, but you must remember that it's stories like this that perpetuate a system that gets more and more complex and unwieldy as patches are applied and then as patches are applied to the patches. Nope, starting over is their only shot. I wish them well.

I sit on a man's back, choking him, and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by any means possible, except getting off his back.

-- Leo Tolstoy

Any solution to the suffering in Honduras will have to involve stopping the injustice there - which means Dole and Chiquita will have to give up the notion of "basically-free labor".

You don't need to help the poor - just get off their backs.

So here is the question, do dole and chiquita get away with this because there is nothing else for these people to do? Or do they get away with it because they have created a system which effectively creates indentured servants? I am not familiar enough with Honduras to comment on that.

I noted in the article that the proposed city would have room for the entire population + 2 million. So if this city provides opportunities for the people who now labor in the fields, and they all migrate there, Dole and Chiquita would be out of workers would they not?

If this is how the Hondurans envision it working it seems that they are trying to 'get off the backs' of the labor pool.

Ever wonder where the term "Banana Republic" came from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic#Honduras Cuyamel Banana Company literally staged a coup to install a more friendly government in Honduras.

edited because I had the wrong banana company. Lest you think Chiquita is innocent, look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_massacre and a more thorough description of Honduras in particular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduras#International_influen...

Familiar with the term, but what I don't know is if a similar move on their part today would work, do you have any insights into that?

Argentina recently nationalized a lot of their energy infrastructure and its pissed off some big oil folks but while in the past they might start up a guerilla army to cause trouble I haven't seen that so far. And of course in terms of economies Argentina is way above Honduras so I get that it isn't a fair comparison. But without first hand knowledge our sources I struggle to reason about the success chances for Honduras' efforts beyond some basic human action / reaction models.

> You don't need to help the poor - just get off their backs.

That's a very naive and over-simplified point of view. During the 1980s' Perestroika, everyone in my country of origin (which was one of Moscow's Cold War satellites) assumed basically the same thing you're assuming: that as soon as those "russkies" got off their backs, they would become rich and prosperous. Well, 22 years had passed since the russkies left, and hopes for prosperity are few and between (some progress has been made but nowhere to the extent that was hoped). BTW, I'm in no way nostalgic for the USSR era; I just don't like when naive opinions like this that have nothing to do with reality propagate because they sound "just".

I now believe that the whole contemporary educational system which teaches students that colonialism was uniformly bad needs to be revised. I have yet to see something good come out of nationalism (with Israel a possible exception).

I might have rephrased, "It's very difficult to help the poor unless you also get off their backs".

Perhaps it's not helpful to think "everything will be better if those people get off our backs", as you mention.

But I'm a U.S. citizen, and I've only recently given up bananas for good. When we're the ones doing the oppressing, it's also not helpful for us to pretend it doesn't exist.

"Oppression" is dangerous terminology to use when no actual physical intimidation is taking place. When peacetime gets labeled "oppressive", people begin to see wartime with a different set of eyes, and the country gets thrown into a cycle of violence from which it is difficult to get out of.

That's a good point, which I'll have to think about. Clearly not all violence is physical violence. But it's also very easy to use that as a carte blanche for revenge - as in "you're oppressing me this much, so I can do this much violence to you in return".

> Clearly not all violence is physical violence.

I'm sorry, but I will have to again disagree with this, even more so than regarding oppression. I am entirely with the WHO definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence). I believe this is very important. Otherwise peace gets labeled war, war gets labeled peace, free speech is deemed violence, and violence is deemed free speech.

Example. If you look at history, violence in the Balkans began with the spread of nationalism into the highly fragmented populations living under the Ottoman empire. While the Ottoman regime was quite far from what we know as a liberal democracy, certain power balance was maintained, and certain groups (Jews for example) enjoyed more freedom in the Ottoman empire than in the neighboring European countries. With the fall of the empire, the newly prominent ideologues of nationalism claimed that an ethnic (as opposed to administrative, economic, social, etc) group of individuals has a right to self-determination. They relabeled the lack of ethnic self-determination as a condition that could only arise under violence. By postulating this "ghost" of centuries-old violence, they justified violence on their part against all other ethnic groups that seemed to lie in the way to ethnic self-determination. Instead of learning how to live with each other (actually they already knew how to live with each other, before they unlearned it that is), various groups took up arms, and the region that could potentially be as prosperous as the Scandinavian countries remains to this day the poorest region of Europe.

What I meant to say with that long story was that as soon as we have a situation where there is no violence being done to individuals, yet a large group claims to be violated, there is a potentially explosive situation on our hands. When there is violence done to individuals already, then the situation is already bad of course, and not as likely to get worse.

> By postulating this "ghost" of centuries-old violence, they justified violence on their part against all other ethnic groups that seemed to lie in the way to ethnic self-determination.

Definitions aside, this seems to be where it all broke down. Using an oppressive situation to justify physical violence was clearly not helpful here.

Yes. That's because the concept of oppression as used by the nationalist ideologues in the early 20th century was largely an invention designed to serve the goals of populist propaganda; it continues to be used in a very similar way by Marxian post-colonialist thought (which is not very surprising given that both nationalism and Marxian thought, opposed as they are, can be traced back to the Romanticist ideals which were in large part an overly bitter critique of logic/reason that developed initially as a reaction to the Enlightenment ideas and was later distilled/intensified during Napoleon's occupation of German states). (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hegel-and-Napoleon-in-Jena...).

Since most people agree that the only thing that can justify violence is initiation of violence on someone else's part (which turns violence into just self-defense and actually helps maintain peace), it is very important that people make it explicit what they consider as violence and how it is initiated.

> ... which means Dole and Chiquita will have to give up the notion of "basically-free labor".

If we can build a self-driving car good enough to carry the rich and famous, a self-picking banana cart is a no brainer. Then nobody will be on the poors' backs.

They had better have a service economy ready when it happens.

It's not like bananas are even one of those crops which requires cheap labour in order to be economical.

The Australian banana industry gets by somehow, paying sky-high Australian wages, and you can still buy Australian bananas for no more than you'd pay for an Ecuadorian banana. (At least, in those years when the Australian banana crop hasn't been wiped out by a cyclone.)

Australia has its own cheap labour: working holidays and people (students) who want visa extensions.

Robotic harvesting without damaging the plant is a hell of a lot more difficult than robot cars for highways. For these kind of problems you need walkers and climbers that can deal with a very wide variety of terrain.

Will happen eventually, but if you automate all labour I don't see why you should expect the poor to work any more than the rich. Already many of the jobs available in the richer countries are only there to make up the numbers and provide the illusion of employment.

Though - the banana-bots would get rid of the biggest problem in the equation: highway laws. Not sure that it'd be that hard technically, but almost certainly more expensive. Even at $50K a bot (that's probably way low) it'd need to be 20x more efficient to even breakeven with cheap labor...

Could try a completely different tack.

Given that all bananas are sterile clones and banana trees can walk, perhaps they would be suitable for risk free genetic engineering so they got themselves to market without any machinery at all.

It's a little odd seeing the old stories about why poor nations fail to be popping up again on a forum of predominantly libertarian-minded hackers.

Lots of places have wealth; but some squander it and some don't. Lots of places have been touched by the smelly hand of imperialism, but some prospered and some are ongoing failures. Lots of places have driven out Western "strongmen" as one poster called them, and lots haven't, and they have succeeded and failed economically in various ways.

The Honduras experiment is an experiment in the latest theories of developmental economics, that arose as a reaction to the failure of the old stories. The idea is that some kinds of institutions are conducive to growth, and others aren't. Importing institutions from successful countries can be anti-growth but it doesn't have to be, nor does the absence of foreign investment somehow magically empower the citizens of a country.

The rejection of this charter city because it 'smells of colonialism' seems a dishonest reason to reject things--motivated by clinging to old, feel-good ideas; refusing to try things that might or might not work because one would rather see the poor definitely starve than give up one's sense of moral righteousness on a risky endeavour.

This forum is not one of predominantly libertarian hackers. I have been here a long time and have not found any predominant political leaning of this forum other than on specific issues related to technology law, intellectual property and privacy. So that statement is presumptive and wrong.

Regarding the rest of your post, it will take me all day to point out all the various misconceptions and racisms there.

But I should say that in my old country we had a 50 year experiment called communism forced upon us by a more powerful foreign country and it was no fun at all. That experiment also came highly recommended from the best minds in academia.

That's why the whole idea of powerful countries doing experiments on weaker ones seems incredibly wrong and offensive to me.

And no this is not "importing institutions from succesful countries." There is not a single successful country that has anything similar to this -- i.e., an autonomous region that is ruled by some economics professor and is not subject to the country's laws or democratic institutions. In fact if any politician even suggests this for America, their career is doomed.

How about we don't experiment on poorer nations. How about we let them decide for themselves. This way if they do something wrong it will be their own fault. And if they want to pass laws that favor foreign investment they can pass those laws using their lawfully elected parliament and they can take their own responsibility for them.

The current president of Honduras is the result of a military coup and very dodgy elections held by that same military after many arrests and disappearances.

If this deal goes through it will not be considered by ordinary people in Honduras as something they chose. It will be considered as something dictated from the U.S. I am not sure how much that is true, but it is obvious that this is what the Hondurans will believe. The coup is already being blamed on the US.

I'm Honduran. Zelaya was going against the constitution when he decided to be re-elected on a third consecutive term, without the vote of the people. As stated somewhere else, he was bringing over rigged votes from Venezuela.

The current president is not the result of a military coup. After Zelaya was overthrown (without violence), the military set up an interim government with a temporary president. He was president until democratic elections took place. We all voted and chose our current president (at least the majority).

I really pity how the rest of the world views this as a coup and say that our current government is not a valid one. Thanks CNN.

Too bad Zelaya didn't have the brilliant idea of packing the Supreme Court wit sympathizers like Ortega did down south, so that when he announced he was going to seek an illegal term the sympathizers in the court would give him legitimacy. Now, inexplicably Nicaragua has yet another Ortega term. Guess Chavez's oil money works better in Nicaragua than it does in Honduras.

Only a coup if you say it is:

"Still, many people in Honduras, including most of the country's official institutions, claim that there was a constitutional succession of power. In a statement to a subcomittee of the U.S. House Committee on International Affairs, former Honduran Supreme Court Justice, Foreign Affairs minister, and law professor Guillermo Prez-Cadalso said that all major governmental institutions agreed that Zelaya was violating the law."

Prepared Statement of the Hon. Guillermo Perez-Cadalso Before the U.S. House Committee on International Affairs, Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere". U.S. House Committee on International Affairs. 10 July 2009. Archived from the original on 16 December 2009.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

Linked from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_constitutional_cr..., which was the first hit from searching "Honduras coup" on Google.

To your other points, I have sympathy that communists forced their views on your country, but if a country or groups within a country want to peacefully solicit me in order to perform "an experiment", and convince me that I will benefit in return, then why should anybody have the power to deny me or them that right?

A friggin' border? A line on a god damn map??

The best minds in academia also advocated the "shock therapy" approach to post-communist countries, which was also forced upon these countries if they wanted loans and aid from the IMF, World Bank, and the west in general. Things didn't turn out well.

What actually worked best was a more gradualist approach dictated from within. Which is not to say that external advice was disregarded, but was taken selectively.

To root this more for HN viewers, imagine if VCs or Harvard MBAs dictated to your startup everything, such as your strategy, what to build, etc. It's best when solutions are grown from within coupled with advice and support.

Relevant reading material for this view: economist Frederic Mishkin's The Next Great Globalization: How Disadvantaged Nations Can Harness Their Financial Systems to Get Rich (don't let the title turn you off) and nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz has a number of books on this topic

I think you’re responding to me? I never said anything about this charter city one way or another. I merely said that the analysis of causes of relative success of Honduras vs. Singapore, Hong Kong, and the UAE is facile and offensive, because it mostly ignores the context.

It's to a general idea exhibited by several people in this thread, including in a post you made. But were it a direct response to you I would have posted it as a direct response to you.

> I never said anything about this charter city one way or another.

Why didn't you? It's really weird that you have the top-rated comment in the thread, and gave a good perspective on the history of the region, yet you didn't actually say how your history lesson relates to Charter Cities.

I think you're a bit too hung up on the -isms here. Libertarianism! Colonialism! I better take my place on the line in defense of my -ism!

The comments I saw were providing context on how Honduras is different than other places where the economic development zone city idea worked.

Personally, I'd be most worried that the city can't really deliver on it's supposed guarantee of freedom from the surrounding climate. There was a coup there a few years ago, laws don't stop armed forces. Investors know this and might not invest.

On the other hand, gotta try something.

Actually, I thought I was speaking against -isms. I oppose -isms in general and only commented that a libertarian-leaning forum of hackers would normally be expected to support a charter city.

If the problem is that the government is dominated by a few wealthy families and heavily-invested foreign corporations control the exports, how could it possibly be solved by creating an area that is dominated by a board of a few wealthy people and tries to attract heavy investment from foreign corporations?

This doesn't "reek of" colonialism. This is colonialism.

The idea here seems to be to transition from a system focused on extracting wealth to a system focused on creating wealth.

This is definitely something that will have to happen in poor nations exploited by internal and/or external sources, there's no question about it.

Whether or not this particular plan can actually succeed at making the transition is certainly up for debate, but the goals it sets seem to pretty clearly be good ones.

Well the goals are good, but if you buy into the whole "noble savage" thing, the goals of a lot of the first-round colonialists weren't so bad either. I think the distinction between extracting vs creating wealth is a narrow one, when the mechanism for creating wealth is essentially mining the local native population for its labour rather than its natural resources---and extracting the created wealth.

I mean, if you think colonialism has a net-positive effect on the natives, you would not be alone, and there are certainly some positive effects (which may or may not outweigh the many negative effects). But denying that the OP proposal is a form of colonialism seems disingenuous at best. If you're going to promote it as a good thing, you might as well embrace it.

I think the idea is that you can't mine someone for skilled labour.

I think the idea is that there will be a more diverse group of wealthy people to dominate the new cities, as opposed to just a few wealthy families.

Quite a neo-conservative (or is it neo-liberal) idea: More freedom through more rich people dominating the under classes!

Of course, some would claim that the writer of this article is just a shrill for the 1%[0]

[0] http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/05/adam-davidson-parrots...

I hate to be pedantic here, but I think you mean "shill" instead of "shrill". Technically what you did there is called a malapropism, where two similar sounding words are misused because the alternative wording could make sense as well. I always thought the saying was "for all intensive purposes", but the actual saying is "for all intents and purposes".

You are correct. Thanks for your pedantry, it _is_ appreciated, as I'm always looking to improve my english.

However I like the use of shrill in this context, as even though it is technically incorrect it made me think of a little bird being paid to shriek nonsense.