Unidentified balloon belongs to amateur balloonist: US official | Hacker News Reader

Unidentified balloon belongs to amateur balloonist: US official

nbcnews.com

28 pointsironyman50 comments

Amateur balloonists have been running these sorts of things for a really really long time without issue. Unfortunately due to China (Spying? Meteorology? we'll never know), now every time there is a balloon spotted there will be an issue.

While I'm not a fan of regulation, we should have some sort of optional transponder/beacon system that can be voluntarily registered. ADSB-like, which I know balloons can do...but true ADSB is expensive.

That way hobbits can continue doing their thing, the cost per balloon goes up by some minor amount, and we don't scramble jets and make national news constantly.

The large balloon was definitely from China, China never denied that. The dispute was over its intention, which China maintains was meteorological research.

For example, here is a BBC article that takes a skeptical tone but correctly summarizes the statements made by the Chinese government. Under a more charitable interpretation, one could assume that the Chinese government remained silent for some time because they had to determine which research agency had launched it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64633990

You're right, incorrect implication on my part. Fixed.

> The dispute was over its intention, which China maintains was meteorological research.

I seem to recall the US military were able to recover it after shooting it down. If that's the case, analysis of the remains should dispel any doubt about its purpose: sensors used in meteorological research are quite different from those used say for monitoring radio waves or taking photos of terrain.

Yes, and there has been pretty extensive reporting that based on analysis of the wreckage the balloon was determined to be an ELINT (electronic intelligence) collection platform with a real-time C2 connection using a commercial US ISP (I assume a cellular carrier). I think that's pretty much what anyone with some general knowledge of modern military intelligence would have guessed, it's just the obvious thing to use such a balloon for.

However, to my knowledge, this is all based on "sources within the intelligence community" and has not been formally acknowledged by any government official. So take it with a grain of salt, even on top of what you might usually apply to determinations by US intelligence.

I'm confused. Why is china to blame for america's paranoia?

I know china's doing some shit, but that doesn't really excuse the paranoia being exhibited by balloons.

even amateur balloonists are supposed to contact ATC so that NOTAMs can be issued. i launched one to about 90,000'. ATC asked me if we had any kind of radio beacons for them to follow, but we were way too small for that. we did have a GPS that we could get some altitude updates on, and ATC asked we update them at every 10,000' for as long as it could be tracked.

if someone is operating a balloon and NOT contacting ATC, they deserve to have there thing shot down. that's just highly irresponsible. it's a simple phone call, and then there's no confusion on if your balloon is a foreign spy platform or not

I'll bet the main problem here is that they flew over restricted airspace. Basically the entitled Western half of Utah is restricted for Dugway and the salt flats, which is unfortunate, because it's the area that would be easiest to recover your balloon from. I did a high-altitude balloon in Utah a few weeks ago and had no problems, but we stuck to Eastern Utah (https://twitter.com/mpatrickwalton/status/176000350831999008...).

possibly, but again, contacting ATC would have made this a non-issue. ignorance of the rules/regulation is not an excuse.

Don't the sufficiently small ones not require that?

What is sufficiently small, and at what altitude? Gases expand as atmospheric pressure lowers as the altitude increases. So whatever diameter your balloon is on the ground is the smallest it will be. The balloon I launched was close to 8’ on the ground when launched. It was closer to 40’ at 90000’ when it burst

They don't care about the balloon, merely the payload. Anything that would matter if something flew into it.

Which is directly related to the size of the balloon.

Very click-bait of them to use a still video thumbnail of the massive Chinese surveillance balloon of last year.

Completely memoryholed that incident. Was it Chinese then, I'm guessing they confirmed that after all.

It was Chinese and (eventually) admitted such - the dispute was over what exactly it was doing.

Mainstream media both needs outrage for engagement and to stoke "yellow menace" flames to characterize 2 billion people as a "threat" and manufacture consent to appease the powers that be to make the case for expanded military-industrial complex spending instead of healthcare.

Well there is some positioning going on for a possible war. The Chinese balloon was part of it. Stop trying to act like China is innocent and minding their business. They are not. They have a hundred year plan for global supremacy and the US has been falling for it, unwittingly. How many factories were sent overseas so we could have a "service economy" of OnlyFans and Uber?

For all this talk of healthcare, we don't even make most of our own medicine. Much of it comes from China and friendly countries in the vicinity of China. I'm frankly amazed that the geniuses in Washington allowed this to happen. Someone must have warned them it was a bad idea.

OnlyFans? Christ. Tell us how you really feel. Wait, don’t.

I feel like my country has been sold out and continues to be dismantled by corrupt politicians. Most of the West is in the same situation. Unless something changes, we're screwed.

that balloon wasn’t a toy either. the payload was the size of a bus

The balloon is therefore identified.

How does one operate a balloon like that in US airspace, both legally, and otherwise without being a threat to other aircraft?

Amateur radio high-altitude ballooning:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_balloon#Amateur_...

https://arhab.org/

You contact the FAA…

Anytime you do weather balloons, rockets, anything that goes above 500ft AGL, you need to notify FAA ahead of time. Get permits. Approval. And on launch day, have them on the phone.

If it will show up on radar, you better believe they will scramble the fighters.

Oh sweet local rocketry club Jesus. It’s only 500ft?

I could be wrong, but 500ft is the minimum recommended altitude for helicopters. That might have something to do with it.

depending on where you are. Yes. That's the moment you enter controlled airspace. Obviously it depends on where you are. In NYC, it's 500ft. In NM, it's FL10 or 10,000 ft. Either way, you should get the FAA involved so they don't waste tax payer dollars on F-16s. If you're flying an amateur rocket above minimums, it must adhere to Part 101 or be waived by FAA.

Everything below 500 is Class G (the G is for ground!) except right near airports, where controlled airspace goes down to the ground.

Class G can go much higher than 500 feet in some places.

I know, but someone in Class A, or B, that gets a drone for christmas might want to do some research before flying (some will prevent you from flying at all!). As too with amateur rockets (not the little model hobby kind) but anything that would show up on radar. ATC doesn't like it when things magically appear.

Long, long ago when I did a bit of rocketry we simply worked on a basis of no launching if there was anything in the sky. We were behind mountains from any radars, almost nothing would have been visible and hobby rockets are almost devoid of metal anyway. I know the guys shooting the high power stuff need FAA clearances.

Back then, ATC were a little more relaxed. “Was that a bird? I dunno. It just popped up and then disappeared. Strange” could have been what was said. Now, any blip is a phone call upstairs. Radar is a lot more accurate and ATC have the nerves. A balloon, a rocket, someone’s potato gun, anything that hits airspace on radar is going to be investigated, at minimum. More than likely, for small hobby rockets, you’ll get away with it or maybe talk to a local law enforcement officer but fly anything large enough, you’ll get a visit from the G men.

As I said, we were behind mountains. Not to hide from the radars but to find a sufficiently large open space that we could be confident everything would fall in said open space and flat enough we could pursue rockets without worrying about being inhibited by the terrain. And with vegetation sparse enough that if something did catch fire it couldn't spread.

Please provide the citation for this requirement? What laws or regulations have this requirement?

7400.2P - https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pham_htm...

They list the air space requirements, the MSL's, the procedures, etc. 500ft AGL isn't set in stone but it's the moment when you would enter an airspace should you be in one. This is why people go out to the deserts where there's no airspace and the minimums are FL10.

That entire section is about amateur rockets; nothing there applies to balloons.

Jesus, fine, here’s the parts about unmanned balloons since you need explicit instructions.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html...

In aviation, the onus is on you to lookup the right regulations for flight. Ignorance isn’t a valid defence.

You linked to the wrong section (again); that covers how ATC should handle unmanned balloons, not what the balloon operator should do. You probably meant [FAR part 101](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F...), of which subpart D covers unmanned balloons. But it looks like for anything under 6 lbs, most of the requirements don't apply, except to file NOTAM and notify the nearest ATC when you launch/descend and a few other things.

Balloons are exempt from the ADS-B requirements to broadcast location. Most balloons are above 60,000 ft, away from all airplanes. Larger ones need to get exclusion zone when they launch. Small ones are assumed to be safe from small size.

To launch balloons you buy balloon, build tiny payload, inflate it, and launch. Most balloons transmit location in other ways. They also explode when get too high, and then payload parachutes back to Earth, where it is collected.

It varies around the world. In the US, Class E begins at FL600. Most of Europe, it's FL660.

It would be best if all objects in the sky that could harm aircraft had transponders, including vintage aircraft without electrical systems and balloons.

ADS-B transponders are expensive and big, but they are made for the aircraft market. It should be possible to do cheap ADS-B transponder like the cheap and tiny APRS transmitters that the balloons currently use. Assuming that they don't have follow the regulation for aircraft-grade electronics.

I've worked in industrial GNSS products. Electronics shrink all the time. A ruggedized module needing only antenna(s), SIM (for remote access), and power probably should or does already exist. The main barrier is the lack of harmonization and consistency in the CFR mandating it.

"Pentagon press secretary Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder said that the balloon not only did not transmit data back to China -- it never collected any." https://abcnews-go-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/abcnews.go.com...

You need to stay on top of things. It was later reported that it was in fact transmitting. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/china-spy...

As I recall, the spying case was suspected from the start. The Navy cleared out a port just before the balloon passed overhead, just to be safe. I can only assume that's why the ships were evacuated, anyway. The media is not going to tell you the truth, especially not about stuff like this. They wouldn't have told us even if they knew it carried a bomb, probably.

As a matter of fact, you should take anything the government or media says with a healthy dose of salt. Seek out alternative sources. It might save your life. For example, people in Ukraine were told that Russia was not invading up to the day it started. Then they closed their borders and conscripted just about all the men.

I don't think the world was at all sure Russia was actually going to invade rather than intimidation tactics.

The world wasn't sure but I think the intelligence agencies were fairly sure. They could see it all from space. I heard about blood banks being moved like a week before it started, at least. They don't do that for an "exercise".

I think the reason Ukraine didn't tell its citizens sooner is that they didn't want traffic problems, and didn't want young men to run. When you say "the world wasn't sure" you really mean "the media said nobody was sure" and that is a distinction you need to learn. Exactly what I said in my earlier post...

If they have identified it, doesn't that mean it is no longer "unidentified"?

Yes.

The title probably should have used "formerly unidentified."

Although most people would be capable of inferring that from the context clues.

> Although most people

oof, you have really high expectations of most people. most people on this forum or most people in general? there's a wide gap there

Well, at least they didn’t fire a $400,000 rocket from $65,000,000 fighter jet that costs $50,000 minimum to start and get in the air, only to miss… this time.

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