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Comment by bogota | Hacker News Reader

This is something i think has been slowly changing in the US. At least among the people i know.

Work is now just work. Five years ago it had to be your passion it is what you wanted or at least i wanted to be defined by. After seeing how little any company cares about people work is what i try to spend the least amount of time doing. At 5 or ideally 4 i clock out and only respond if I am paged.

Additionally i have checked out of the tech scene and just spend work time on any needed continuing education. Am I a good developer anymore? Who cares. Im good enough to pass whatever the stupid circuit of interviews is and honestly that is all that matters anymore.

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> This is something i think has been slowly changing in the US. At least among the people i know.

I think your cohort is just aging.

It's hard to know, right? I think that COVID knocked the crap out of a lot of social norms, one of those being "live to work".

But it could also be aging, as nothing helps you understand life is short like seeing obituaries of people only a few years older than you (or even younger than you).

I'd guess the sequence is people start off young and naive, live through a downturn and then discover that the contract lays out precisely what their employer thinks of them.

Doing the job then going home is not a new philosophy. The people living to work are just gullible.

As you work in tech for a number of years you discover that (a) employers don't become permanently more loyal or generous to you if you "work your ass off" and (b) working long hours doesn't actually make you more productive overall anyway. I suspect one reason for ageism in the industry is that management are too inexperienced themselves to have discovered either of these.

As a young 30 something I cannot disagree more. I'm flabbergasted at have met my bff's ex and found out he was an old school company man. I've never seen a person so used and so unaware of it in my life and of course he finally left with nothing to show for years of being a victim of labor laws violations. His dad was like a life long Walmart mid-upper-level person.

No one I know, besides him, has job loyalty. Not the senior dev in Seattle making 400k, not the dog trainer, not the chef, not even my parents. And younger generations are just more and more cynical about it.

As they should be.

I don't know about this. I have found a few places with great bosses/owners that deserved my loyalty. They proved it by investing in the team, making hard choices to cut their salary rather than lay people off, and in general being loyal first.

When you find a place like this, I advise hanging around for a while.

I agree with this. However, the flip side is, a great company can get bought out by a horrible one. A great boss who appreciates the good stuff you did might leave for a another job. (though maybe you can follow them). Things can change quickly. Public sector is different. Its far more long-term. Which is great. Although, OTOH things that are wrong with it remain the same for a long time. Ironically, the reverse is true. I know someone that worked for a company that was horrible and he thought about leaving, then it got bought out by a decent one.

Very likely. For context im 33 and mostly hang around people from 28 to 38 range. Although I also notice a different attitude with the new devs that we hire who are 24 to 26.

The “great recession” didn’t seem to impact tech like the dotcom bust did. So millenials and younger really hadn’t lived through a lean era in tech like we’re living in now. This is easily the worst jobs market since that dotcom bust. So it’s been a while.

Nothing like seeing how arbitrary layoffs are to seeing how shallow leadership decisions can be.

This is the period that actually defines good leadership. A good leader, at least to me, won’t be led by investors to making largely short term decisions. They will define how their organization needs to evolve and challenge them to make it happen. But what I mostly see, are leaders doing stupid things like RTO then layoffs (goodbye, loyalty!), and then shrug and whine about having to maintain margins while cutting money losing projects that shouldn’t have been started in the first place. And then turn around and say “the future is AI” without really having much of a plan.

The leadership BS really stinks during these times, and it’s something that the younger generations haven’t really experienced.

I am almost 50 and on my ninth job. I haven’t been “passionate” about my job ever. It has always served as no more than a means to support my addiction to food and shelter.

How booring. Has there really not been anything fun and exciting in any of your nine jobs?

Like what?

Like having a little bit of fun? You know, like just for yourself, liking it a bit?

While I do have a lot of fun coding, I can't say I've ever had this experience at a paid job. Maybe if I had the opportunity to write open-source software but that seems like rather a niche career path at this point.

Like helping the new marketing girl grow from a noob in everything to an absolutely master of a PO,

Like building a product so well made that it makes people say “I’ve searched for 15 years for this product”;

Like watching this self-absorbed geek grow from a 40-yo single to a polished mannered person with a girlfriend.

I mean no-one is excited to build an accounting software, but I’m excited when people grow. Actually, I’ve once heard that an army of psychologists will never take a man out of depression, but give them a hammer and they’ll get to work, get recognition and gain positive experiences. And the opposite: Being barred from working, from giving your labour, to a company that appreciates it, is an extenuating experience for men.

> Like building a product so well made that it makes people say “I’ve searched for 15 years for this product”;

The fact that software is a "product" and not a "collective resource" tends to put a damper on that enthusiasm. After two decades in the industry it's abundantly clear we're condemned to rewrite the same software over and over again in the name of profits—a colossal waste of humanity's efforts.

You know you’ve succeeded in a role when there’s a list of people you’ve supported in growth who are really sad you’re going, worried how they’ll manage without you, but who you know 100% have totally got this.

I’ve gone back years later to a couple of ex-workplaces and seen with my own eyes how those uncertain (or over-certain ;-) folks are in their power and confidence and capability. Others I run into in professional settings and get feedback from others about them not just being great people but awesome professionals.

Knowing you’ve smoothed the way, helped out with existential fears, fed growth of good people when they needed it is the most awesome part of my career. Better even than much of what the paychecks bought me - blurry photos, fatty-liver and electronics in landfill.

Idk, depends on what tickles your fancy I guess. But I have never had a job where there's nothing fun or interesting. It can't all just be that mundane and easy?

Personally I find joy in two different settings

- the hard problems, where I have to go for a walk around the apartment, and think about it when I shover. These are rare.

- putting on some music, pouring myself some coffee, and just coding up something relatively easy while in the flow. Making something which did not exist before.

I do find some joy building hard stuff. But if I didn't need the money I really wouldn't work. When I fancy hard work I'll just contribute to OSS.

9 months ago I early retired (I'm in my 40s)... I've just decided to find a new job because I'm bored. Opensource is fun and I did contribute somewhat but I find that working on an interesting problem in a team is just fun and I missed it.

My Dad actually had the same problem when he retired. Took him a few years to get out of it and find other things to do. It's weird because he was always stressed out when working. But the lack of stress made him believe he was worthless :/

Can’t do it that long if the work doesn’t speak to you in some way

Yeah you can, it's called bills.

Dude, look out your window, most jobs/“careers” are like this and people just endure cause they have to

There’s a whole class of people working in manufacturing who are lining up to disagree. I recall seeing a woman on a TV show once who had been doing the same job in a sausage plant for 40+ years. She wasn’t a beaten down slave, she just found her joy and identity elsewhere.

A good boring job allows non-boring life outside of job.

I have had about the same number.

Of course there have been things that are fun and interesting but I don't drone on about it, pretending it is like I am getting paid to drink at a bar and flirt.

if you have hobbies it’s much more fun to spend time on that.

> served as no more than a means to support my addiction to food and shelter.

Haha, that's a poetic way to put it.

How do you set boundaries? Any tips?

Well first, always be prepared to look for another job

1. Develop a strong network

2. Keep an updated career document with a list of your accomplishments in STAR format

3. Keep your skill set in line with the market

4. Live below your means and keep a cash cushion

5. Don’t be a “ticker taker” work on having projects with scope where you can talk about things “you led” or “you designed”

Now worse case, you can find another job quickly. I was PIPed from AWS last year and found another job within three weeks because I was prepared. I also lived enough below my means where I didn’t need “FAANG money” to be comfortable.

On the other hand, you need to know how to talk about trade offs within the holy trinity of any project - on time, on budget and meets requirements. When one changes, the others have to change.

Great advice, thanks!

I asked gpt about the STAR format. The answer:

The STAR format is a structured manner of responding to a behavioral-based interview question by discussing the specific situation, task, action, and result of the situation you are describing. Here's what each component stands for:

1. *Situation*: Set the context for your story. Describe the event or situation that you were in. This could be from a previous job, from a volunteer experience, or any relevant event.

2. *Task*: After describing the situation, you talk about the actual task or challenge that was involved. This is the problem or issue that you were confronted with.

3. *Action*: Explain the actions you took to address the situation or task. This should be a detailed account of how you tackled the problem.

4. *Result*: Share the outcomes or results of the actions you took. Ideally, this should be a positive outcome that demonstrates how you effectively handled the situation.

Using the STAR format in a career document helps to clearly and effectively convey your accomplishments in a way that highlights your problem-solving and task management skills.

> addiction to food and shelter

You didn't get hooked on dihydrogen oxide? That's the worst, a very difficult addiction to kick.

Hang in there!

If you like dihydrogen oxide, I highly recommend you try to inhale a mix of 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen once in a while.

"Huffing ox", very dangerous indeed.

i like a little argon when i huff. people say it makes no difference, but i can tell!

> I am almost 50 and on my ninth job. I haven’t been “passionate” about my job ever.

You sir, were a wise man even when you were young (Not being sarcastic). A very rare trait among people young or old.

Goodwill dissipates hard when your remote only company starts mandating an injection.

Oh boy… This is a sentiment a large portion of workers feel, and a large portion of workers aren’t remote.

I've always assumed that vaccination requirements were just intelligence tests in disguise.

Depends on which side of the intelligence fence you are on. Each side claims to be intelligent, of course only on one side is.

I was never passionate about work until I did my own thing on my own time. Now I am proud and really like my work.

I don't think I could have ever lived that feeling working for someone else.

How did you make the transition?

Burnout, travelling, moving back to my mom, consistent trying and evolving and possibly great luck.

If you ask from a financial perspective, mostly trough our social system. I wasn't able to work, when I was again nobody stressed me to do so and now I am back, happily paying back into the system, at my own pace.

Couldn’t agree more.

I was a manager for 25 years. It was soul-sucking. I think I was a very good manager, but I hated it.

I did code on the side, mainly to stay sane (not sure if it worked -Ed.).

When I was finally let go, after almost 27 years, I ran smack-dab into SV’s notorious ageism. It was humiliating, humbling, and infuriating. I fairly quickly gave up looking, as the search was way more soul-sucking than being a manager. I had the means to retire early. I hadn’t planned for it, but we make plans, and God laughs.

As it turned out, it was probably the best thing that could have happened. I have been furiously coding, ever since (solid green GH Activity Graph). My family also had some rather serious medical issues, and it was good that I could stay home. I live in a state with great health coverage, so I’m grateful.

I think it’s mostly (corporate) disconnection from reality.

It’s understandable that a failing business lays off a bunch of people to try and stay afloat, to survive.

But companies thriving, making a bunch of money and seeing their share price increase… and still laying off a bunch of people?

If that’s the game companies play, it’s understandable that people will adapt sooner or later.

FAANGs just stopped being interesting for me at 26. The realisation dawned that life is really not that long and it really doesn't matter how good you are. Before that it was a race to learn as much as possible with every waking moment. Doing that for years and years until you're given the opportunity to keep doing it for even more became incredibly boring. It's like it's not enough that you aim to be slave but you need to be the best slave and even then we can let you go if god forbid your health gets bad.

I just don't care anymore, don't give a rat's ass about tRPC.

If you’re at a FAANG, the point is to stash and save as much as possible as quickly as possible so you can escape being a slave

If you are in US sure, in Europe it’s much much harder.

The tRPC comment hits home… what have I been doing with my life?

It’s tricky. I used to have a passion which was a small bootstrapped side business, then due to life circumstances I had to give up on that.

I found that getting more invested in my 9-5 and my coworkers made it easier to get through the day, cause if not, good god it would be hard.

But now oh don’t get too invested as a guard against getting laid off…

Like I said, it’s tricky.

I do agree on signing off latest at 5 unless absolutely needed to tho, you’re just punking yourself otherwise

> "Work is now just work. Five years ago it had to be your passion it is what you wanted or at least i wanted to be defined by."

Surely you jest. The Dilbert comic strip started in 1989 and even then people were remarking about how eerily realistic it was about how uncaring, lacking in loyalty, stupid, and generally soul crushing corporations and corporate life was. It was tremendously popular for just that reason.

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