ADHD linked to evolutionary success in ancient humans
newatlas.com
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For those of us who have been ADHD our entire lives and have been acutely aware of every single thing that ADHD has affected IN our lives. Like losing relationships, partnerships, making people think we don't care about them, disinterest, spiraling into depression because we can't keep things orderly for more than a week, having to write down literally everything lest we immediately forget the next question we need to ask, getting panic attack level anxiety frustrated when we can't find something we've lost 10000 times like our keys but we KNOW we put in the same exact spot because we trained ourselves to do it, getting put down and told we were incredibly smart but didn't apply in school..
I have never, ever, once since I was probably 7-8 wondered if I did or didn't have ADHD. Nor has anyone in my entire life. And it absolutely obvious to me, as someone who has ADHD, who also has ADHD. It's absolutely a spectrum but we can 100% hear ourselves caged inside of someone elses heads.
And now, 2024, with 80% of HN now thinking they need stims because at 42 after having 3 kids running around they find it hard to focus, so now I can't get my prescriptions because they're out of stock and I pretty much can't function on weekends now because I have to limit my intake to save extra pills in case I can't get it next month and I have to get tested more frequently because now it's even FURTHER on everyones radar as a narcotic.
And I'm aware that some people just literally have no idea what some mental thing is. I have 40+ yo friends who don't know that some feeling they felt 3 days ago was panic attack level anxiety.
Well, it's time to learn about your feelings and how to identify and work with them, big boys!
Delay fun https://imgur.com/a/BVQkKOV !
Edit: I'm not gatekeeping diagnosis at all, get one if you need one and it helps. I'm just explaining what the situation is like from this perspective. It's incredibly troubling to see an illness you have blow up in popularity because there are so many things that can come with that, like the gov cutting it off for us completely, us running out of medication, etc. Although, this is ADHD. If this was cancer and it started growing exponentially i'm sure they'd do more medication creation and research, instead we're treated like coke addicts.
edit2: And I should mention, just because I was dx'd as a kid doesn't mean anything in that huge list at the top was evident to me that it was caused by ADHD and not anything else in my life. It took decades of going through the same cycles and loops and seeing the ways my adhd would cause things to be different from others and cause issues. A lot of people think "Wow if I'd gotten dx'd at 8 instead of 38 my life would be amazing."
Unfortunately not.
I didn't really figure out the interpersonal relationship issues were hugely ADHD until my 30s. ADHD when I was a kid was a "he's super hyper and can't focus" and was supposed to go aaway by "adulthood." No psychiatrist has ever given me a good understanding of ADHD that took all my own research.
Turns out it's a lifelong thing. Psychiatrists in the past were awful.
Similar experience for me, particularly the relationships one stings a little bit reading about it. I'm obviously not your doctor but I got off of stims years ago and have found a lot of success with bupropion (wellbutrin). It's not narcotic and has shown success in dealing with ADHD symptoms + depression from ADHD.
What data do you have to support this? Based on some of the research I read coupled with anecdotal experiences I have witnessed in others, ADHD is not that difficult to fake.
I do not think a majority of people with ADHD are faking anything either. I just don't think the diagnostic process is as robust as people want to believe.
Before anyone gets up in arms, I have ADHD too. However, I imagine these test to be something like a diagnostic test to determine if an animal is a fish or not. Does the creature live in water? Does the creature have fins? Etc..
So, if a creature checks all the boxes, then is it a fish? What if I analyze a dolphin? Dolphins have fins, dolphins live in water, etc..
My point is that we cannot prove one has ADHD beyond a reasonable doubt. No biomarkers, no scans, or anything of the like. Thus, how can we claim the diagnostic tests are accurate when we can't even definitively find what they are supposed to diagnose? It seems to me that science has the "tail," but still can't find the "donkey" to pin it on.
Now do understand, I do not doubt that ADHD exists. ADHD has damn near ruined my life. However, I do question the accuracy of our understanding of it. We know stimulants help a select group of people, perhaps somewhat more than others, but even then, our understand of why stimulants are effective are still merely hypothetical. Stimulants are also not effective for everyone with ADHD.
I am glad we are willing to help people prior to having all the answers for it's been beneficial to my life. I understand our condition has faced a lot of stigma, and research has tried it's best to combat the stigma and false perceptions, but I feel like the trust in research can sometimes swing too far in the opposite direction. There are plenty of unknowns, and I truly think we have long, long way to go.
Seems like an easy choice.
Well, huh.
I finally talked to an MD about the symptoms I’d had my entire life, and they diagnosed me with a quite intense version of ADHD. I started taking meds for it and it was revelatory, like a nearsighted person putting on glasses for the first time. What, is this what it’s like for everyone else?! They can just, like, decide what they want to do today and then do it?
My life would have been so, so different if I would have done this earlier. It’s not that I decided to catch the ADHD a couple years ago because it was trendy. More like, because it was trendy, I became aware that the problems I’ve suffered through my entire life are a common thing that lots of people have and is treatable.
Sorry. I didn’t mean to take your meds. It’s just that a physician and I found that I have the same thing you do, and now I’m also getting the treatment I should’ve been getting all along.
Edit: Since we're having a conversation in edits instead of threads, I still wish I'd been diagnosed when I was younger. Yes, we know a whole lot more about it than when I was a kid, so I have the benefit of experiencing the modern version of its treatment. I still wish I'd known that my inability to force myself to do things that didn't interest me wasn't me being the lazy POS that my teachers and bosses said I was.[0] I've been astonished at how much less anxious I've been since starting treatment. It's been life-changing. I just wish I could've had that life change when I was starting out, not late in the game.
[0]I know you understand what I mean here. For others: I don't mean that it was hard to get excited about things that bored me. I mean, it was beyond my ability to force myself to do those things, even though I desperately wished I could just get up off my lazy butt and do them like the other people around me.
Like what? There are only three subtypes. ADHD-C, ADHD-PI, ADHD-PH (Combined, Primarily Inattentive, Primarily Hyperactive). There are no "intensive versions."
> started taking meds for it and it was revelatory, like a nearsighted person putting on glasses for the first time.
Now you understand why these powerful psychoactive substances are Schedule II controlled substances with a high potential for abuse, commonly misused across academic and industry settings, outright banned in some countries, etc..
I won't gatekeep you or declare you do or do not have ADHD. I do not even think it matters at the end of the day. Hell, there is no definitive way to determine if someone has ADHD anyway. No blood biomarkers, no genes, fMRI scans, etc.. One has ADHD only if a medical professional says so. Nothing more and nothing less. One doctor says you have ADHD, and another doesn't. Which one is right? How can it be proven?
I'm not the GP of this comment chain, but you didn't take my/our meds. You took something that helped you, and that is all that matters. I find this false dichotomy of having ADHD or not to be ridiculous. Every professional diagnosis is of equal until science progresses.
Perhaps on some kind of deeper level, we might not even have the same disorder, and what we call ADHD could be multiple separate disorders. Until then, we have to work with what we have.
Congratulations on finding relief. I don't care if people have some kind of arbitrary made-up acronym to describe a set of symptoms that are heuristically diagnosed or not. I just want people to not struggle with what I had to go through and still go through. ADHD is my obstacle, it is not my identity.
They certainly meant more intense representation of symptoms, of which there is a broad range.
> I won't gatekeep you or declare you do or do not have ADHD. I do not even think it matters at the end of the day. Hell, there is no definitive way to determine if someone has ADHD anyway. No blood biomarkers, no genes, fMRI scans, etc.. One has ADHD only if a medical professional says so. Nothing more and nothing less. One doctor says you have ADHD, and another doesn't. Which one is right? How can it be proven?
I’m not going to nitpick on whatever standard of “proof” you need here but you’re wrong in that there aren’t any tests for it. There have been CPT’s around for over 20 years now such as the IVA-2 test that tests a broad swath of things like reaction times, fidgetiness, and attention span that can differentiate with very reasonable accuracy ADHD groups vs non ADHD groups, and differentiate between ADHD sub-types (which you mentioned). I know this because I didn’t have any relief in symptoms until I took a few types of these and learned that my symptoms are far more of inattentative type than hyperactive and I had been completely mistreated for a long time. We also targeted different therapies that have been far more effective for me now that I would not have even been able to try before I took them - so I know there is something to it.
There are many types of these that have been around and used for a while, it isn’t necessarily a doctor just saying “yup you’re adhd” after a 7 question survey (although overdiagnosis in this way is for sure common).
I suggest you brush up a little on the subject before speaking so condescendingly about it. We know way more about ADHD now than we did 15 years ago which sounds like where maybe your opinions are sort of coming from.
These tests and studies are extraordinarily expensive and not covered by insurance typically which is why I think people think they just don’t exist.
Perhaps, and hopefully so.
> you need here but you’re wrong in that there aren’t any tests for it.
I've taken the CPT test, WAIS-IV, etc. and I am aware of the others to some degree. I never said there was no way to test for it. I said there was no definitive way to prove someone has ADHD beyond a reasonable doubt by means of any known biomarker. No blood test, fMRI, etc..
> I know this because I didn’t have any relief in symptoms until I took a few types of these and learned that my symptoms are far more of inattentative type than hyperactive and I had been completely mistreated for a long time.
You have piqued my interest. What changed for you for I have seen no research about different subtypes being treated differently (I do not doubt its legitimacy though)? I am -C, but more likely on the -PH side of things. Stimulants have always been rather... less than effective to say the least.
That is a lot of people.
So it is probably more that a lot of people didn't realize they had it, until it became more widely known, and then they started connecting dots.
It used to be a small percent of the population got the symptoms - they were either those particularly predisposed to it, or in particularly bad situations.
As it becomes more prevalent across the population, more and more folks are showing problematic symptoms.
Notably, anyone who even glances at the news, social media, or politics is getting a ton of narcissistic abuse every day. As are many people at work.
And the symptoms of narcissistic abuse line up very strongly with certain ADHD symptoms - and issues we’re seeing across the entire population.
What do you mean by this? I am not agreeing nor disagreeing, I genuinely find this ambiguous.
NPD is all about extracting ‘supply’ and control - supply usually being attention, and control via desired emotional responses. The enemy of NPD is on the ground reality and having to produce fair/equitable results.
In the industry case, the goal is control of supply (attention) and spending (aka buy our stuff, donate money), and votes/power.
For one random venue from my list - walk down it and tell me any of those listed that aren’t doing several of those simultaneously and in an escalating fashion.
https://www.choosingtherapy.com/narcissistic-manipulation-ta...
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/adderall-shortage-ad...
I'm sure you're very well established with a medication I've taken for over 30 years.
If I'm going to "blame the DEA/Gov" about anything it's obviously going to start at "Why is this scheduled what it is, why the hell do I have to renew my script every 30 days like I'm selling it in high school when I've had it for 30+ years?"
This makes it easier for those that are gaming the telemed system to get access to stimulants they likely don't need. Pretty lame.
You should look into using bupropion immediate release to cover the times you can't get get access to your medication. It's better than going without.
You sound like you were hyperactive. I am solidly inattentive-type, I went through school before diagnoses were a thing, and my mother actively fought to keep me away from psychiatrists when teachers suggested it (for the best reasons - it was a different time). So all I ever got was "that boy's not right". I always assumed I was on the autism spectrum, and there's not much that can be done about that, so I just got on with things as best I could.
A 5% increase in diagnoses wouldn't result in month-long delays in the sales channel. Something else is going on. In Europe, the factory in Ireland is "having manufacturing issues", which seems incredibly opaque and has been going on for nearly a year. They say it will be sorted by April, but that date keeps rolling back. Given that it's world-wide, I am wondering if the problem is with sourcing a precursor.
I literally got my first job out of college (several months after graduating) because the interviewer forgot to ask me my GPA!
I also like to remind myself that, in the old days, people like me didn't "just deal with it." People like me lived awful lives, often as addicts. Thank goodness I'm only on a drug that lets me maintain a job and relationships.
>I literally got my first job out of college (several months after graduating) because the interviewer forgot to ask me my GPA!
Lucky! I applied for a government job in a state that used exams. So my crappy GPA could be overlooked by good test-taking skills.
I had the exact opposite experience; I was told by the test-administrator that such a high test-score combined with such a low GPA was almost certainly going to be seen by his superiors as a sign that I had cheated on the test.
But human society has had much more use for dogs than cats, people who can focus and follow orders reliably are just much more easy to scale.
In fact, people with ADHD are usually more focused and harder to distract than other people - as long as they do something actually interesting to them.
It was also eye-opening to see how "the other side" operates, once on meds. Wow, suddenly I have motivation to actually follow through on things! Not every little thing distracts me now, including when I drive!
Anyway, not a superpower - for me in any case.
We have wildly different experiences then.
It's almost made me reconsider my life choices. I love programming, but it does not love me apparently. All the meetings, tickets, remember to do this, do that, focus on X and not Y, etc..
I've worked exclusively for startups my entire career and, for me, it's easier to hide my ADHD symptoms in the chaos of a startup. Further, there's tons of novelty in startups and many opportunities to learn something that was previous outside your wheel house.
Of course, there are downsides to startups (e.g. career stability) so it's not for everyone.
Think this is the key. Maybe 'mild' can have some advantages, while 'severe' does not.
And also, environment. If you have 'mild'-'middle' symptoms, but also lucked into a school-career like software or something, maybe it seems like 'super power'.
But for those people, this is luck that symptoms and environment/situation matched up.
Anecdote: I have ADHD (diagnosed) and I think I can safely say that it is the single highest source of stress in my life.
Interest-oriented motivation is incompatible with employers’ needs for predictability. I’ve lost entire workdays because of completely irrelevant side-quests.
I find working on a contract basis is much more compatible with my ADHD experience than being a FTE because I can at avoid charging for days when my brain goes completely off the rails.
This is with medication and years of psycho and occupational therapy. This is with regular exercise (which definitely helps). I think I am managing the disorder with the best tools I can reasonably get my hands on right now and the best it ever gets for me is controlled chaos.
I do love the rush of learning something new that folks with the disorder tend to get but, man, at this point I would happily ditch that occasional good experience in exchange for behaviors that look like a functioning adult in his 40s.
True for me as well but hard for most to find a situation (or employer/client) that can be this lenient.
For me, I have certain issues that are literally impossible to explain. Why am I a half hour late? Because I had to go back inside the house to grab something different I forgot 4 separate times, and on the third time, I lost the item I went back for originally, and had to spend 15 minutes looking for that. Oh, my car keys ended up in the refrigerator for some reason. Why not? There have been periods where this has been every waking moment of my life if I don't concentrate as hard as I can.
"Why don't you just set aside a spot for things." Wow, geez, I never thought of that, thanks. I'm cured.
It was only much later I found out why I was doing that, of course.
> Interest-oriented motivation is incompatible with employers’ needs for predictability.
I'd challenge the word "needs" though. They want things. They are happier with predicable mediocrity than they are with unpredictable flashes of discovery. You could say that this is an anxiety disorder on the part of the investor and managerial class. But of course, they are not disordered; you are; that is the nature of the power relation.
I could construct an analogous sentence:
"Likewise, interest-oriented sexual arousal is incompatible with the breeding requirements of the Glorious Leader. We have pills to bring on appropriate moods in the females."
This sentence triggers the correct, disgusted reaction, because we respect women's reproductive capacity as sacred. We do not hold the mind as similarly sacred, which is why others believe they have a right to yours.
For me, it's the highest source of stress in my life. Wage employment is obviously fuel to the fire, but one has to remember one thing. ADHD is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 365 or 366 days a year.
It causes disorder in employment, but as the late, great Billy Mays once said, "But wait! There's more."
It affects literally every aspect of my life -- personal relationships, hobbies, responsibilities, sleep, physical health, etc.. ADHD doesn't only affect me from 9 to 5.
People get pissed when you don't respond to their emails/texts, when you don't pay attention to what they are saying, forget to do whatever they need, etc..
It's crazy to me, because to my knowledge, it's one of the only diseases, if not the only, that is mainly characterized by how the symptoms affect others and not the person suffering.
Now I just need to find a spouse willing to be married to me on a contract basis :/
It's a bugger all right.
There are definitely cons to this, but I think “it’s a superpower, especially when directed correctly, with some downsides and quirks” is probably a better mentality than “it’s a debilitating condition that I can’t do anything about,” which can lead to negative self-fulfilling outcomes.
(personally I think something in the middle of my adhd — something like: “this has radically shaped my life in ways both positive and negative, and figuring out how to shape my life around it rather than treat it as a depressing diagnosis seems good for me.”)
ADHD is the worst thing that's ever happened to me.
They produced a unique game where players were given eight minutes to collect as many berries as possible by hovering a mouse pointer over a bush. Each time they foraged from the same bush a player’s harvest would slightly decline but if they moved to a new bush they would suffer a time penalty.
So what would most players do? Stick to the same reliable berry-supplying bush? Or risk wasting time by trying another bush to see if it had more fruit? Explore or exploit?
Around 450 people participated in the experiment, and all were simultaneously screened for ADHD symptoms. Unsurprisingly, the researchers found those with higher ADHD scores moved on to new bushes sooner than others but more importantly, those with ADHD also tended to collect higher volumes of berries overall.
Writing in the newly published study, Barack and colleagues noted that participants without ADHD characteristics tended to over-harvest single patches. Looking at what would be an optimal harvest strategy for the game it was discovered that players with high ADHD scores were more successful overall.
The outcome of this game is 100% dependent on the parameters: the decline in the harvest from a given bush, and the time penalty. If you change the parameters to favor persistence, then guess what, persistence wins.
I think that's by design. In situations where exploratory behaviours pay off, ADHD-like behaviours prove beneficial. In settler roles, they do not. The study's hypothesis is to hint that explorer-types could tend to push evolution forward, and that ADHDers could tend to being explorer-types.
I don't think there's any contention that ADHD is necessarily advantageous today - at least not from this study. It would be too complicated to make such a point.
Based on population percentages, the disorder seems, to me, to be far too common to be some kind of genetic fluke. We are talking about something that affects ~1/20 - ~1/10 adults. I mean, one is more like to have ADHD than blue eyes, or green eyes, or red hair, etc..
As someone with ADHD, it surely can cause disorder, and believe me, it can cause plenty of it. However, I wouldn't say that it's without its upsides at times either.
In my personal experience, I find that my ADHD has been somewhat more advantageous when in a group setting than individual setting. I feel like I can bring a different angle of creativity to things that neuro-typicals cannot, but perhaps that is just my wishful thinking.
I can do what most do with just 10% of my time or attention. But the remaining 90% balances it out in terms of my overall usefulness being just about average.
If I could scale that useful 10% even 5x, I'd be in some interesting places. but the more I try to fight the condition, the more futile it seems, like waging war upon yourself.
I'm in my mid-30s and I know no better about dealing with it than I did in my 20s.
Given that ADHD diagnoses are about 5% of the global population, something incredibly hinky is going on here.
Maybe almost everyone experiences similar symptoms to varying degrees and almost nobody gets tested because it doesn't cause them any problems.
Another way to say it is that it is used for mental conditions which fall under the social model of disability. That is to say, they are primarily harmful due to society not accommodating them as opposed to being inherently harmful. Things like ADHD and high functioning autism are primarily problems because they don't fit into society's expectations. On the other hand, schizophrenia is much more inherently disabling.
Yes, this is the defining line of a clinical diagnosis: are the symptoms inhibiting your ability to live.
You'll also see similar claims around depression, OCD, and any other mental disorder. Since the disability is not visible, people regularly dismiss them using the same "everybody is a little ADHD" rhetoric.
> I have a bunch of odd behavioural characteristics too that overlap with mental conditions: clanging, rocking and stimming, and until my mid-20s if I 'touched' something (including stepping on a tile-edge or crack at an angle) on my one side I had to symmetrify with the other side.
Since my life is otherwise fine, I think it's probably just the normal variance of the species.
Obviously using the self-report test is nowhere near is useful as getting people with a formal diagnosis, but finding 250 study participants with formal ADHD diagnosis (and verifying each case) is waaaaay more expensive. Trials like this sometimes pave the way for a more expensive and exhaustive study to be funded.. and then people come into these threads to complain "great another study telling us what we already knew."
Isn't that true of every game? Winning (getting most berries) is not the important variable they are measuring, so unless you you are suggesting people with ADHD are more concerned with winning, I'm not sure how relevant it is to their interpretation.
It might have been helpful back in ye olden times, but It sucks having it in today's work environment. Boring desk jobs where you sit down and work 8-5 don't utilize it at all. At the end of the day go home wanting to do projects and to work on my future ambitions, but I'm just tired and end up not being able to finish them.
1. ADHD traits could have been beneficial for exploring new food sources in ancient times. 2. While ADHD is often seen as a disorder today, it might be better suited to different environments.
Intriguing stuff about ADHD traits maybe being helpful in some situations! Makes me rethink how I view ADHD, and chimes with my own experience of folks with ADHD doing really well in certain tasks compared to others. A good reminder to consider different perspectives.
I also learnt that the DRD4/7R gene was linked to ADHD AND risk-taking behaviour.
I can't experimentally verify it, but on the balance I believe I am better off with ADHD than without it. It has also caused me problems because even being slightly outside the norm has high costs in a mechanized economy that values interchangeable parts/people over novelty.
Not sure if there is any merit to it, but I find that because I do not typically fixate on one particular thing, I can easily distracted by anything/everything, thus I can spot differences rather rapidly.
I consider it like a breadth-first search vs. a depth-first search.
Long runs or hikes to get to the locale / day (or days) long stints of observant concentration resulting in longer than 24H wake/sleep cycles / intense sprints to chase down prey —— all well-suited for the ADHD constitution.
I've thought about it from every angle and it sure adds up to me.
group think is so appealing to the herd that they will throw out reality to stay comfortable themselves. who cares what the means are as long as there is no discomfort for ourselves.
However, while such changes would be a great start, I think it would be cruel to adjust curriculum to a person with ADHD, then throw them into a society that does not adjust to them. If anything, the current system is at least consistent i.e., the same shit system in curriculum prepared me for the same shit system the world runs on.
Is the individual following a typical known neural path to find the berries because they have already learned it to be successful?
Or are they instead connecting new neural pathways along the way and following atypical unanswered thought threads in an attempt to find a new and better option... for some motivated reason?
Seems more useful to study over a longer term, across many similar tasks.
It's like saying severe anxiety is linked to evolutionary success because anxious people pay more attention to the things around them.
> In the 21st century we may have pathologized ADHD as a negative disorder, but that could be just because these characteristics simply don’t easily suit the world we have constructed. In a different context, it is possible that someone with ADHD could be a saviour to a tribe by restlessly exploring new pastures.
"Around 450 people participated in the experiment, and all were simultaneously screened for ADHD symptoms. Unsurprisingly, the researchers found those with higher ADHD scores moved on to new bushes sooner than others but more importantly, those with ADHD also tended to collect higher volumes of berries overall."
Two, the test diagnosed half of the participants as having the equivalent of clinical diagnosis of ADHD, when the global diagnosis rate is closer to 5%. Huge red flag.
They used a black box AI tool to diagnose folks. IMO, this was a bad choice for a study.
And? That could be true...
I do not think anxiety is a disorder, but rather a natural response. It's literally our "fight or flight" mechanism.
I think the disorder part comes from the fact that such mechanisms are being hit constantly for so many people that it causes disorder in one's life. There is no rest for the system, and it's constantly under some sort of strain.
Yes, anxiety might save us from a saber-tooth tiger, but I do not think situations like that were an all-day-every-day kind of occurrence like the things that cause anxiety in today's time.
The inability to focus and lack of memory recall, for example, may either not matter or just be negligible compared to other factors.
While ADHD does lead to focus problems, people with ADHD are usually just as good at focusing as anyone else when their life depends on it.
Scooby?
For those not familiar with the slang, "Scooby" is apparently a response to say one doesn't understand what you're talking about and could use a clue.
However, even a Google search on the typo of "repoructive" was able to reveal what I meant with zero context.
If mild to moderate ADHD offers an advantage in a high mortality setting, the loss of individuals with more extreme symptoms isn't going to make much of a difference in selection pressure. (sickle cell anemia is an extreme example of this)
Here's an interesting book on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_Sickest_(book)
Even if little Jane ADHD taxes resources more than other group members on the average year, perhaps her unique behavioral traits open the possibility of saving the entire group from starvation during an atypical hunting/foraging year.
Amazingly, anxiety also decreases greatly when one’s not worried about being unable to care about whatever boring thing is being inflicted upon them this month.
I’m glad I had such things inflicted on me in interest of making me a more well rounded human. But left to my own devices, young me would have escaped to a library every single day and memorized every book on the subjects I liked. If we lived in a placetime where that were a viable option, ADHD vs Education wouldn’t have been such a problem for me.
As much as ADHD is:
> 'It’s the inability to focus on something that’s not interesting'
ADHD is also the inability to stop focusing on something that’s interesting.