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Comment by idunno246 | Hacker News Reader

Vizio recently changed their firmware on my tv to require you to use the smart cast app just to watch antenna. It's slow and buggy and causes nothing but problems, the people writing the software clearly never use one of these tvs. Dumb stuff like it would mute my receiver every time I switch channels and immediately unmute, except sometimes the unmute would fail. It’s a shame, it was a great little tv, but this push for more ad views means I’d never recommend a Vizio to anyone.

I know the common refrain is don’t connect tv to the internet, but for whatever reason the Vizio showed up in chromecast at times when the Roku stick wouldn’t, otherwise didn’t use tv smart features

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After owning my Vizio TV for like 4 years I am taking it back to Costco. The experience has gotten progressively worse with the updates. It is just so laggy and extremely frustrating. I'm going to tell costco the updates ruined the TV.

As a rule of thumb, I never connect my smart TVs to the internet. I go chromecast or PC connection.

Some may say there may be improvements, but the streamed ads, and surveillance and phoning home of my behavior, the benefits of privacy certainly outweigh the downsides.

I used to love my Chromecast but I feel like it's gone downhill significantly. The amount of bloat and ads when you fire it up is annoying. Thankfully there is an 'Apps only' mode now but you are still plastered with ads before you can select an app.

I did the same thing with my old Samsung. Disconnected it from wifi and immediately had way faster boot-up times. The ads were really bogging it down.

Somehow, 3 years later, it still recommends the movie "Hancock" every time I turn it on. Perhaps it was the last ad it ever fetched? And it has an eternal cache? Who knows.

Turn off wifi, get a chromecast, an Apple TV, or a gaming console.

Consoles are getting ads now too.

Yes. Ever since Microsoft started serving ads with "Tiles" on the new Xbox 360 interface, back in Windows 8 era, the enshittification began the creep.

Xbox one, it's bundles of ads. When it first released, the UX was so horrible, I remember getting lost trying to find the menu to launch a game from disc. I had to page through ads just to find it.

Playstation, there's popups, and non-disable-able promotions for games and subsriptions. (There's also these "Stories" I think they're called, that tell you about the progress in a game, that are heavy with spoilers").

Both interfaces are masterclasses in optimizing noise/signal and adding as much noise as possible before the user stops using it.

Please give it to me? I have enjoyed my Vizio TVs and prefer them over Samsung and LG.

Loved my Vizio 60 until the backlights died; a known bad power supply engineering issue caused them to fail early. I have to wonder, though, why? Its not like led engineering isnt a solved problem. I'll leave that for someone else's discussion.

I am not sure you are under the wire on their updated return policies for TVs. It is close, might want to call first.

I am going to speak to manager, normally it is 90 days. I've had TV for 3 years but I really hate using it. Normally I wouldn't care but it makes me angry that TV used to be fine but Vizio just made it worse with ads and updates.

I’m sure everyone that tries to return a 3 year old TV has a good excuse.

Now I just hook up an apple tv and disconnect the vizios. The new UI looked like it's straight out of Idiocracy.

Don’t give it network access and hopefully it can’t update

It's insane that "changed their firmware on my tv" is even something that can happen. I'd like to buy a TV and know it will work the same in two decades as it does today.

Personally, I don't own any TV, since I use my monitors. But it does beg the question of why monitors don't have these kinds of issues. Why are companies happy to sell me a "dumb" monitor, but won't sell me a TV unless it includes a bunch of fragile "smart" features?

The trend of coupling the TV to the computer (as opposed to using something like Chromecast) is the primary driver of the enshittification of the TV market. And this shouldn't be surprising - just look at what happened when the auto industry tried to invent and maintain their own entertainment systems. Ironically, they eventually came around to decoupling and delegating that work to Apple and Google, whereas TVs had it right at first and then made it worse.

I understand the business reasons why TV manufacturers want to own the computer part of their TV too. But it still doesn't have to be tightly coupled to the TV. If they really believed in their product, they could sell a dumb TV along with a dongle that competes with Chromecast. But if their product sucks and nobody would buy it, then they need to resort to forcing it on consumers as the default mode of operation.

> I'd like to buy a TV and know it will work the same in two decades as it does today.

TVs from about a decade ago fit the bill while being of "acceptable" 1080p quality. Lord knows the manufacturers aren't bothering with updates anymore if they even supported them. My primary TV is a Samsung from 2012 and I've never felt the need to upgrade. I can't tell any quality difference from any non-high end TV today.

This should be a consumer protection issue across the board.

So, you're using a free or subscription service that's enshittifying. Bad enough, but okay just stop using it or unsubscribe.

But, the idea that you can outright buy a product then have it change in any way that materially impacts its usefulness or your satisfaction with it is customer hostile at a minimum; and straight-up fraud at worst.

Between everything-as-a-subscription, monopolies, the rise of the billionaire oligarchy, defanging of our regulatory apparatus, Citizens United, etc. we're becoming a society of semi-autonomous renters.

But, I guess we shouldn't worry too much. Soon enough, Zuck will bring us our VR utopia, and we'll all be eating steak in the matrix.

>I'd like to buy a TV and know it will work the same in two decades as it does today.

Don't connect it to the internet.

Are you aware that in order to use many models of TV at all, you are required to connect them to the internet?

A TV is an overgrown monitor reject with speakers. If you need internet to use one, the problem is you.

Required? No, that is an exaggeration. Over the past 2 years or so, I've bought about 10 different 43 inch panels from TCL, Visio, Hisense, Sony, and Samsung. All let me watch an HDMI input without connecting to the Internet.

Show me a model number where you cannot plug in HDMI and watch from an input without connecting to the Internet. If this is truly happening, it should be easy to find YouTube and TikTok videos from customers and reviewers.

They include it in the setup screens, but they let you plug in HDMI and it works without internet. Even Amazon Fire TVs (the worst in terms of privacy) has a store mode that removes most of the "smart" features.

I bought a HiSense 50" 4K TV at CostCo two years ago; I wanted a 43" but that was all that was available.

It does not allow you to view the HDMI ports until it is setup; setup requires an internet connection. I don't have it any more.

Have in mind that newer HDMI cables also allow Ethernet through them. Make sure to get no more than 1.4 (or 1.3, can't remember now) if you want your HDMI-connected device to never request (and get) internet from the host (which is often a PC).

The HDMI standard has it (and the cable generation shouldn't matter, as long as it has all pins connected), but does anything actually implement that Ethernet channel?

The pair used by Ethernet was optional until it was repurposed for eARC (high-bandwidth audio backhaul to a receiver/soundbar). Early-version HDMI cables were available in both "with Ethernet" and "without Ethernet" flavors.

That would require support on both HDMI ports (it's a negotiated protocol, not something that can just be passively wired), and I've never heard of any mass-market hardware that actually supports Ethernet over HDMI, despite actively searching for it on multiple occasions. Discrete graphics cards on PC don't even support CEC, which would actually be useful for some people.

43" LG 43UQ75

WebOS is slow, picture is fine and I even updated FW on it... using USB thumbdrive. Never connected it to the Internet even once.

That's great until the manufacturers start putting stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Sidewalk in them.

Get a Sceptre dumb TV. Oddly enough they're available online from Wal-Mart. We got a 55" one with really good picture quality and no smart features, it just dutifully shows whatever signal is on its HDMI connections. We expect it to last for years if not decades.

I second this opinion, but people should know that the lower cost does have tradeoffs:

They are a little more fragile than your typical TV - move them around with care.

The speakers are much much worse than average - you are going to want a soundbar.

The IR receiver is oddly placed, so you have to be a bit more exact when aiming the remote.

I'd never buy a smart TV myself.

But to be fair to TV manufacturers, if you're selling a 4K TV - you need buyers to be able to get 4K content on it.

And you've got to be a rocket scientist to get 4K video from Netflix, because of all the DRM you have to navigate. Remove the smart TV functions and 90% of customers would probably end up only getting 720p because they sacrificed a chicken instead of a swan and got their graphics card blessed by a priest and an imam but not a rabbi too.

Just don't connect the SmartTV to the network. I use mine as a monitor on my HTPC and it works fine. The firmware is about 9 years old and counting. ;)

This is easy to say until the providers start playing DRM fuck-fuck games and you can't get an HD/UHD feed. I gave up using my HTPC and just started using the TV apps because the HDCP troubleshooting was just getting too painful.

I'm IT, so managing the HTPC is a bit of nothing to me. Setup a wireless kbd w/ trackpad and it's off.

Once they start locking basic functions behind garbage like that, I'll roll to a large monitor or projector.

What will never happen is me buying a TV, then ceding control of said device to the manuf. They can fuck right off with that invasive garbage.

YMMV.

HDCP and walled-garden shenanigans are already an issue. Amazon Prime won't do 4k on PCs. I've run an HTPC for years, and still got forced into their ecosystem because the only way I could get UHD was through their damn smart TV app.

Tech communities can get a bit overzealous with this, but this is definitely one of the situations where I'd just pirate. They are giving me an inferior service due to discrimination of devices that are 4k-capable, and on top if that they increased prices and added ads late last year. They aren't even trying to earn my subscription.

They aren't trying to earn your subscription. The model is lack of choice, so you're forced into someone's shitty ecosystem.

I'm with you. Arrrrgggg, matey.

Yeah, thats why I don't use streaming services much. My partner likes Netflix and that's cool, but until they stop treating the customer like a burden after they paid a fee for a service, I'll continue to sail the high seas.

Never had a problem with a content from "High Seas Entertainment(r)(tm)"

Neither have I. I mainly experience issues when I'm stupid enough to over-pay for some kind of media.

> Just don't connect the SmartTV to the network

They will one day have cellular modems so they can phone without your permission

You've just defined the day where I build a fucking Faraday cage around my TV.

You don't understand the level of "Fuck these people and their invasive shit" that I'm will to go to.. lol

Side topic on Faraday cages. I have an elevator in the middle of my building, inside is all steal panels, again in the middle of a big building, and I still get cell service. Can talk on my phone up/down the entire time.?

I thought it would be a Faraday cage and cut that out?

A true Faraday cage would kill the signals. I suspect that wasn't designed as a Faraday cage. It's an elevator.

There could also be a cellular extender inside the building. I happen to work in a building with LOTS of materials that block signals from the outside. The windows are bulletproof, the walls contain metal plates, etc.

We have to use a cellular extender to get cell signal inside, however, the building wasn't designed as a Faraday cage. It just happens to hamper signals in a similar way.

> Why are companies happy to sell me a "dumb" monitor, but won't sell me a TV unless it includes a bunch of fragile "smart" features?

Oh, I guess you haven't heard of Samsung Smart Monitors - https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/monitors/smart-monitors... - which now bring spying and ads on your computer monitors too! ;)

Why are companies happy to sell me a "dumb" monitor, but won't sell me a TV unless it includes a bunch of fragile "smart" features?

Because “Smart Features” are a Trojan horse for giving the TV manufacturers ongoing revenue via ad sales and viewing metrics. This has allowed them to significantly mark down the TV selling prices as the sale price is now subsidized by the ad revenue.

Vizio actually pioneered this model with their “Inscape” product.

This is a trade off that most buyers will happily make, including the ones tech savvy enough to just not hook up the WiFi.

There’s zero market for TVs without smart features at the price they’d have to be sold at.

…and people spam HN comments to this very day insisting that market failure cannot happen.

I would love to see them change the firmware on my TV that isn't connected to the internet for reasons just like this. They can keep their abuseware.

On the other hand, I got a Vizio. I've been loving every update. They've added wireless Bluetooth support so I can connect with headphones, made the UI extremely snappy, made the volume overlay be non-obtrusive in the corner.

Hey I worked on that project along with bluetooth voice remote. I personally spent a few weeks during Christmas time (2020 or 2019?) making sure the bluetooth pairing process was rock solid. Ending up root causing two deadlock bugs that had a repro rate of like 1 in 50.

The engineering leadership was going downhill with layoffs and politics. We would have the quality of the firmware/smartcast be rock solid and then following quarter it took a nose dive. Some of the best people I ever worked with are no longer there.

And last I know, VIZIO isn't like samsung and tries to randomly find an internet connection to update firmware. I still use my free 70in with Apple TV and it is great because I disconnected it from the internet (after I was laid off).

This was a big deal to RV / motorhome users. I remember a Reddit thread where people were complaining that they couldn't use the TV without internet service. There were some Vizio people on the thread insisting that you don't need internet so I don't know the whole truth but at seems at least it wasn't obvious to a non-technical user how to simply connect an antenna and watch over the air TV. My RV has a Vizio TV but it's old enough to not be smart. I don't watch OTA anyway.

The next OTA broadcast standard has an internet connection requirement for targeted ads built into it, that is how far gone we are.

My policy is to never connect these TVs to the internet. If I accidentally bought one that required it I would return it to the store as defective.

Of course, that won't stop them from programming the firmware to wait until outside the return period to start demanding internet access. And I expect sets to start showing up with built in 5G you can't turn off quite soon. The perversion of ad and user tracking will never be satisfied, it is a cancer that only stops if the host cells have entirely died.

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