AMD Zen 5 CPUs Reportedly Made on TSMC's 3nm Process, Mass Production in Q3
wccftech.com
wccftech.com
Because the article goes on to say:
> "Zen 5 will be using the 4nm node while Zen 5C will be made using the 3nm process"
> "It might be possible that UDN has confused the Zen 5C 'Prometheus' core with Zen 5 'Nirvana'."
Lots of people are saying that Apple chips are good only because they have the node advantage. Let's see what they can do within the same power envelope now.
But real performance improvements post M1 didn't really match expectations. IMO the expectations Apple stated/implied in their usual marketing incantations are partly to blame, but they were the ones pumping the hype, so it's completely fair to charge them for that.
Compute performance improvements of ~30% are OK and in line with everybody else, meaning they are dealing with the same reality as other companies, hence the "let down"
https://wccftech.com/apple-m2-ultra-soc-isnt-faster-than-amd...
Since power consumption vs performance is non-linear it's possible that the Intel+Nvidia combo would have roughly similar efficiency as M2 at lower wattage, although it certainly won't beat the M2 at 90 watts.
Also, there's benchmarks like these:
https://owehrens.com/whisper-nvidia-rtx-4090-vs-m1pro-with-m...
Depending on what you're doing, modern AMD chips are very close to M series chips under load (specifically efficiency). The biggest issue is idle power is still higher. My amd framework (7840u) takes between 5-10watts idle unless I use something like the xtu tuner.
AMD is already significantly faster than M series, and has been so for a long time. Efficiency is the only place Apple still has an advantage
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/apple-m3-cpu...
Single core performance is only useful for artificial benchmarks. And even there Apples lead is less than 2%.
That is nonsense that none of the CPU competitors would agree with. In most applications single core performance matters very much. Not every algorithm can be multi threaded and there is an unavoidable overhead with those that can be multi threaded. Only some parts of some applications can be multi threaded.
For example, a 20 core 500 MHz CPU is much less capable and responsive for real world usage than a 5 core 2 GHz CPU, despite having the same instruction count per cycle.
A 100 core 100 Mhz CPU would take forever to boot up and feel unusably slow.
check e.g those
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/laptop.html
AMD and Intel beat Apple hard in perf and price benchmarks.
I just showed you that Apple is equal or better in terms of single core performance. This thread is a bunch of childish fanboy nonsense, attaching egos to some brand of CPU manufacturer and ignoring actual benchmarks.
Personally I don't care about $20 price differences. On a developer salary who gives a shit about price? I own Apple, Intel, and AMD cpus. They're all good.
So, just because you used one metric, then I shouldnt look at the other metrics?
So how should I understand this other ranking from the website that you've provided? https://www.cpubenchmark.net/laptop.html
At that level its competing on efficiency and capped by power consumption. It can't reach 5 GHz with only 80 watts for all cores. Running at 3.5 GHz. The Intel and AMD CPUs need hundreds of watts and reach 5 GHz+. It's a tradeoff for efficiency. Different design decisions. Different tradeoffs. Not exactly competing in the same market segments.
Mac Pro is often used for video editing. The M2 Ultra has hardware acceleration for video encoding/decoding that would need a separate accelerator card on Intel or AMD to match: "M2 Ultra can support up to 22 streams of 8K ProRes 422 video playback"
Apple beats them on single-core ratings. You can see the single-core rating if you click on one of those results.
It cannot be compared perfectly, but you can try to estimate its perf/$
I'm not saying this will be easy, but imagine if the whole laptop was e.g 10k usd instead of 4-5k, then you'd instantly feel that something is expensive
Hardly.
I don't see how one would be able to identify and normalize all the required variables, e.g. median life expectancy, average performance across metrics per watt, average power usage, residual value, etc.
For instance, I can sell my 2017 MacBook Pro for roughly twice as much as my 2017 Thinkpad, which has better specs. How do you factor that?
I wouldn't because it makes no sense. Occurance of great deals aint relevant here, imo. Why would I care that customers do crazy stuff on 2nd hand market?
>I don't see how one would be able to identify and normalize all the required variables, e.g. median life expectancy, average performance across metrics per watt, average power usage, residual value, etc.
How about building system for similar price to Macbook and comparing their performance?
It, of course won't be ideal, fair, whatever, but ain't it what gamers do? They find PC configurations and check how games run on them.
So far it is looking OK. In single core, it handily beats a 7900X3D at a fraction of the power draw.
For 1) my fastest iron is i9-13700KS and Apple M2. They are very close. My Zen 3 is great and is notably more power efficient, but I'll evaluate 14700KS-Zen 5-M3 when possible.
ADD: because of winter I'm loving my i9-13700KS (not kidding, my office would be freezing without it), but come summer I'll care about efficiency.
As far as I can tell, it is not enabling LCD panel self-refresh. This may be where the extra idle power is going with screen on? If you think about it, it's a pretty expensive behavior to constantly read framebuffer content out of system RAM at 60 Hz.
Need to purchase a new business laptop soon
I highly recommend going through some youtube battery life videos and looking up notebook check reviews for whatever you're planning to buy/compare.
This is with a 14nm chip, one would think the newer systems could hopefully do at least this well.
Btw as someone with a skylake laptop that also used to sip power, I suspect there's been a mild across the board power increase especially as newer chips clock much higher. My ryzen 7 iirc goes till 5.1ghz and is noticeably faster (i'm at 392 tabs in edge right now) than my skylake. I suspect your older laptop wouldn't clock so high, and a 3ghz limited intel/amd would have great battery.
In the modern era, AMD chips are actually known for running hotter for quite a number of reasons (much thicker IHS on AM5, stacked v-cache on X3D, boost algorithm deliberately saturating thermals, etc), even though the intel chips pull more power.
cpus are not an ideal thermal system and do have their own internal thermal resistance. a 7800X3D runs hotter than a 7700X at equivalent (limited) PPT, which runs hotter than a 13900K at the equivalent (limited) PPT, because the thermal resistance is higher. these are objectively measurable things!
Also, generally, surface area is a component of thermal intensity as well and if you take the same flux and spread it out over more surface area you will get a lower temperature too. A threadripper putting out 250W does so with less thermal intensity than a 7800X3D putting out 250W and will run at a lower temperature too.
like yes, you are correctly describing the measurements in which these cpus are not the same thing, but then making the incorrect leap that "because in a spherical-cow world they would be equal" that these cpus are equivalent in these metrics in real life, which they are not. different cpus have different thermal resistances, and AMD's is generally higher right now because of the decision to go with a thicker IHS (to maintain cooler compatibility) and the move towards stacking (more silicon in the way = more thermal resistance).
and again, don't pretend this is some absurd or unknown concept, we literally spent years and years with amd fans making memes about "intel toothpaste"... thermals and wattage dissipated are not the same thing. you can have a great, efficient product with terrible thermal resistance, there have been a number of them!
it's just that AMD isn't on the top this time, so everyone pretends not to get it... or volunteers a bunch of theoretical reasons it doesn't matter... or ...
just like "thermal watts aren't the same thing as electrical watts!" etc
Of course, it also has a very low performance-per-watt, comparatively speaking.
The higher memory bandwidth doesn't do anything for ST perf.
It has the highest performance per Watt.
Shouldn't AMD and Intel have an expertise that ideally would take decades and billions to be reached?
This was the team that did the Digital Alpha & StrongARM.
As always "the overnight success were years in the making".
This was back in 1990.
Before they switched to Intel x86, they were also involved in PowerPC, together with IBM and Motorola.
So they are not coming from nowhere by any means.
A program built for an intel and amd cpu 30 years ago runs today. That’s not true of M series.
Even without that, all modern chips translate the ISA into internal ops, and that translation take such a miniscule fraction of chip area that ISA in 2024 has minimal effect on power and performance.
With that said the competition is gaining, a couple hope to match Perf and perf/watt of the M3. Some even mention the M3 pro. None mention the M3 max.
I would definitely like to see if the x86 industry could figure out how to include more channels while also not requiring 6-8 DIMMS to take advantage of it, like Thread Ripper.
Something like dual channel on a single DIMM?
Intel & AMD are leaving too much performance and profit on the table not to do so eventually; IMO it's more a matter of when rather than if.
I have to hand it to Apple, it's bold that they have on-package RAM that's so wide. (And then doubling and quadrupling whole core complex with tiling is a stunning move; Pro and Max.) Apple shipped a huge range at all once: a very capable mobile chip to a very beastly workstation grade chip.
Intel's most notable attempt to me was Lakefield (2019), a Mobile Internet Device (MID) class (sub-laptop) chip that I quite liked. The 1+4 architecture wasnt very fast and it was a bit more power intense than the Snapdragons of the day that it had a modest-to-significsnt lead over. But I loved that it was like this tiny tiny package that you basically just had to add power to, and the on-package LPDDR4X-4266 was a very speedy offering for 2019.
Intel's upcoming Lunar Lake mobile was shown in January, rocking tiled (doesn't look like a stacked/3D Foveros setup) on package ram. https://www.anandtech.com/show/21219/ces-2024-intel-briefly-...
But both AMD and Intel already have big on-package ram cores. Intel's been shipping a "Max" Sapphire Rapids with 64GB HBM2e for a year (https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-launches-sapphire-ra...). Like Apple's Ultra, it's a quad-tile with each CPU having a it's own HBMe stack. AMD's MI300A is basically a GPU where some of the tiles are instead CPUs but it too has 8 stacks of HBM3.
I keep asking myself how & when & where is on-package ram going to arrive in. But there's already significant HBM presence in big cores! It didn't seem to make an huge difference for Sapphire Rapids; some help but unless one uses the expensive accelerators well there s probably not enough core to use it. Meanwhile MI300 is only just happening & more API focused. We have yet for on package ram to really be meaningful & available & making a difference like it did for Apple.
But as your post says, it feels like an inevitability. Someone's gonna make a core that can do more or be better by having lower powered faster local ram.
Part of my suspicion is that the market is resisting de-segmentation. The real issue is that Apple used on package ram to add many channels. Not of slow wise HBM memory, but mamy channels of DDR ram. These companies don't actually want to compete on throughout; they want throughput to be associated with $10k exotic chips. They are lament to build higher bandwidth more-channel consumer cores.
That starts to change some next year with AMD's Strix Halo, a big APU with quad-channel ram. There's no on-package ram as far as I've heard, but once you start having that much board real estate & energy going to ram, it sure would be nice to get even more performance for less power & much less space.
Damn I love on package setups. 2024 doesn't seem likely to offer much new or exciting, but 2025 has some possible signs for hope.
you can't really do that, DDR5 has a concept called "pseudo-channels" where a normal 64b channel can be broken down into 2x32 smaller ones, which improves parallel efficiency somewhat (now you can have 2 requests in-flight at the same time). But mostly bandwidth is down to the number of pins and how much data you can physically push down them, chopping the same pins into smaller channels doesn't help, other than letting you eliminate some inefficiency/overhead.
however, this is essentially the goal behind strix point/strix halo - narrower memory buses (compared to apple) with cache to improve the effective bandwidth. Just like in GPUs, this allows you to use fewer channels to get to the same bandwidth, which means less actual data movement. The downside is, of course, less "raw" bandwidth, if your workload is not cacheable.
basically my rough expectation is that it's going to be more expensive than apple silicon, and still probably not actually beat on power, but will allow you to do workstation laptops with 512GB or 1TB of unified memory, which is also something the apple stuff cannot do. They are different products, apple is targeting people who want a powerful ultrabook, amd is targeting people who want a mobile threadripper for actual work tasks (metrology is one example).
Been looking to replace a Tiger Lake ultraportable which despite being a good laptop otherwise is terrible in terms of battery life and heat, but have been waiting to pull the trigger until an x86 laptop that can manage battery life numbers similar to that of a MacBook Air without also throttling the CPU to oblivion appears. Hopefully this gen of AMD mobile CPUs delivers.
I've recently bought new MSI with a Core Ultra 7 155h, just finished making Linux work on it, seems that without turbo boost (set it up with TLP) it manages at least 10h of life, and I didn't notice any degradation without turbo in everyday tasks. I've very little experience with it yet though.
I expect that it will use less baterry once Intel Thread Director usage finally gets merged to scheduler, right now on 6.8rc5 it is still using all different types of cores as if they are the same.
Also, was surprised that there are 4 types of cores now in a sense - P, E, two new LP cores, and actually two out of six P cores have slightly bigger maximum frequency, 4.8 instead of 4.6 GHz.
My ultraportable (ThinkPad X1 Nano Gen 1) gets 5-7h on a good day with the system set to “power saver” mode, with little difference between Windows and Fedora. If I’m juggling several tabs or doing anything slightly more intense it’s going to be lower.
The best x86 ultraportable option I’ve seen from current gen offerings is probably the HP Dragonfly G4, which if configured with the 1920x1280 screen and lowest-TDP CPU can manage around 14h which sounds ok, but efficiency still isn’t as good as with the MacBooks because it’s only capable of that with light usage because it has a 16Wh larger battery than a Macbook Air, has a lower resolution display that’s about half as bright, and has to be in power saver mode.
That being said, AMD chips are absolutely more power efficient than Intel chips, by a huge margin
The same thing is true of the GTX 1080 Ti, a card that 7 years later still has comparable performance to new mainstream GPUs, the upcoming mid-cycle gaming console refreshes, and the Steam Deck.
(This fact isn't lost on nVidia, who would like to have you pay for that next decade of usefulness up front; the reason for identical market prices per quantum of performance of the 3090, 4090, and soon 5090 are that way partially for this reason.)
The only thing I really regret is getting a B450 Motherboard that only supports 1 NVMe SSD (and only PCIE Gen 3 SSDs). I would focus on making sure your motherboard has enough RAM and SSD expansion room, and then buy a big enough power supply for whatever GPU you want to run. You might want to figure out whether Zen 5 will have a new chipset, and if so, will the IO be significantly better. Nothing else is going to make a huge difference.
I moved & started actually paying my power bill, and I really wouldn't mind my desktop's 100w draw if I could effectively suspend it and wake-on-lan it as needed (for either remote gaming, or to hop back into an existing tmux session). But if I suspend it, it goes down maybe ok, but never wakes up; I literally have to unplug it to get it back.
The various threads about give me the sense that I am far from the only one here with these kinds of issues. I tried windows, I tried turning on every wakeup I could find in the bios, I tried turning on every wakeup I could find in Linux. There's two different sleep modes, tried that. I wouldn't mind having lost like 8 hours of time to this issue, except I feel like I'm nowhere; no suspend, no tools to see what is or isn't happening. And it seems very prevalent on AMD. Frustrating.
You, on the other hand, have been waiting about 15 CPU generations. You can build a PC on the AM5 platform and be content for 5+ years.
Get a B650E or X670E chipset, PCIe 4.0 or 5.0 NVMe drive, 64GB of RAM (why not), 1000W power supply (thanks nvidia).
By the 7800X3D now, worst case scenario the 9800X3D is so good that you'll have to sell the 7800X3D for half the price on eBay
that's why I think there's no race on even buying a system now with a placeholder 7800X3D... motherboards should be significantly better next year too (albeit I'm sure more expensive too).
it may make sense to jump on RAM this year though, because most forecasts have RAM prices increasing 50-100% over the course of this year (and they are already up by 10-20% from the bottom) due to large cuts in production and a large rebound in demand. It's gonna be 2017 all over again.
[1] https://pcpartpicker.com/product/6QcgXL/gskill-flare-x5-64-g...
If Intel can return to competitiveness without just dumping 300 watts* into a CPU I'll be switching back next time.
[*] https://gamersnexus.net/cpus/intels-300w-core-i9-14900k-cpu-...
Are you on AM5? My kids' AM4 board is a Gigabyte, and my friend has two AM4 MSI boards and they're all working fine.
I was able to enable context restore and cold boot happens in 13-16 seconds straight to the desktop.
I built a 7700X (which is my daily driver) about a year ago: haven't had a single problem. I used an ASUS Prime B650-Plus motherboard:
https://www.asus.com/motherboards-components/motherboards/pr...
It's working so well I didn't even bother looking if there were any new firmware available.
Let me explain RISC vs CISC, RISC is Reduced Instruction Set Computer and CISC is Complex Instruction Set Computer. The base component instruction sets of x86 are CISC. The base component instruction sets of ARM are RISC.
When technology evolves and newer instruction sets are required to handle those tasks they can often become more complex and so today with the variety of instruction sets on both x86 and ARM they are closer to each other more than ever. Still different.
Now going to the differences between ARM and x86 where it matters. ARM has the lowest power draw to performance ratio but it's need for power skyrockets as it approaches more complicated tasks. x86 starts higher in power draw but its performance is pretty maintained under all workloads.
Neither are wrong, just it depends what you're planning to do. x86 is probably the best architecture for the general user, but ARM is great in a phone if everything stays relatively simple. Notice how some phones with 4000 mAh battery will be dead in 30mins while playing a game which the Steam Deck can handle for maybe 1.5 hours of gameplay? However if I wanted something to stay on all day to receive text notifications and pretty much be idle in my pocket, I'd want an ARM processor. I think the real reason Apple went ARM is that after studying the life habits of their customers they realized most of their laptop users fold sleep their devices like a phone without ever really charging them. At least the majority, when working in a Mac Shop, the term used for a mac only software development team, the constant amount of fold close open recharge would've been better on an ARM processor. Someone at work even asked if they could just code on their Samsung phone because it got better battery life than the old Intel Macs.
Other than this I am not familiar with any other fundamental limits to making x86 as efficient as ARM or ARM as fast as x86.
I recall reading about creating a subset of x86_64 that would be faster to decode, but this would effectively be a different architecture so at that point you might as well go to ARM64 or RISC-V.
I do know that if the instruction set decodes efficiently and is compact (to reduce memory bandwidth) it really doesn't matter much beyond that.
RISC-V is also simple, and that's relative to ARM64, nevermind x86.
I.e. it is achieving highly competitive code density and instruction count despite being simpler.
M1 has four times the bit width of an AMD Ryzen processor. Supposedly next generation of Ryzen processors the Zen 5 will have a wider bit width.
For starters, the CISC vs RISC debate has been dead for decades now. Often considered RISC architectures like ARM, have had vector instructions and branch predictors for a long time now.
> Now going to the differences between ARM and x86 where it matters. ARM has the lowest power draw to performance ratio but it's need for power skyrockets as it approaches more complicated tasks. x86 starts higher in power draw but its performance is pretty maintained under all workloads.
These two sentences are contradictory!
Initial power draw on ARM is lower but jumps in complicated tasks.
Initial power draw on x86 is higher but maintains in complicated tasks.
So you agree that CISC vs RISC is not a thing nowadays.
> Initial power draw on ARM is lower but jumps in complicated tasks.
> Initial power draw on x86 is higher but maintains in complicated tasks.
What's a "complicated" task? What's the power draw baseline? What are the examples?
Otherwise, these sentences mean nothing.
Correct.
> What's a "complicated" task? What's the power draw baseline? What are the examples?
Complicated tasks typically involve the use of numerous instruction sets working together to complete a task like with video games that have physics and AI. Exclude AI co-processors for this example. Or even burdening the system with tons of multi-tasking. ARM succombs.
AMD's x86 Ryzen chips rival M series processors, but under stress can do more. M series is the pinnacle of ARM, you won't find anything ARM near it in any way.
This is clearly untrue, and you can tell it to my laptop running ~500 processes right now.
> AMD's x86 Ryzen chips rival M series processors, but under stress can do more. M series is the pinnacle of ARM, you won't find anything ARM near it in any way.
"Can do more", of what? What are your metrics, other than what appears to be a gut feeling?
Average is about 200 - 300 processes Windows is kind of bloated.
> "Can do more", of what? What are your metrics, other than what appears to be a gut feeling?
https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m2-vs-amd-ryzen-...
https://www.notebookcheck.net/R7-7840HS-vs-M2-vs-M2-Pro_1494...
Really it would take you moments to do research. Instead of saying something is worse or better and pointing a finger. If you doubt what I am saying you should really provide that detail too.
Anyway, I guess “doing more” is… synthetic benchmarks scores with no clear winner? OK I guess?
> Average is about 200 - 300 processes Windows is kind of bloated.
This was macOS.
IOW, in 2024 there's no significant advantage in ISA choice.
There are dozens of factors that matter more than ISA choice -- process node, design team competence, transistor budget, design goals, memory bandwidth, et cetera.
Your comment would be much more accurate if you said "Zen4" and "M1" instead of x86 and ARM. (I chose those two because they're on the same process). Zen4 is better than M1 in some metrics and M1 is better in others. But that's mostly because they had different design goals.
Untrue, one can easily play GTA Trilogy or Genshin Impact on an iPhone for ~4 hours. But even if it was, a phone battery is rated, on average, between 12Wh and 20Wh, whereas the Steam Deck is 40Wh.
> I think the real reason Apple went ARM is that after studying the life habits of their customers they realized most of their laptop users fold sleep their devices like a phone without ever really charging them.
Nonsense, suspend to RAM has been a staple in laptops for decades now.
> Someone at work even asked if they could just code on their Samsung phone because it got better battery life than the old Intel Macs.
Wow, just wow.
You are a funny guy.
That's not my experience at all, but alright.
This does not work and just adds noise. This is not Twitter, if you want him to see something, you should send an email. Also, submissions in non-English languages are strongly discouraged so the quality of your source does not matter. You can submit a better article in English, though, which should not be too hard in this case.
So you get more, faster cores/units, in the same footprint.
sram.is the exception as it scales poorly, so don't expect much. If anything, this is the largest and most important hardware issue facing all the chip gains, since so much of performance is memory dependent.